Macross Delta - Episode 10 Discussion / Poll

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Mistyclear

That sounds super painful

But the victim won't feel it. The victim would be in shock (if the head somehow remains attached) for a few seconds and expire. Unless of course, the victim was lucky (well, not really) and the shot somehow grazed arms & legs. Then thats a different story.

- Tak

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by charles883

MESSER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. RIP YOU WILL NOT BE FORGOTTEN.

As I thought, there third party in the war who manipulate Windermere

The third party was within the windermere politics.

[Thess]

MESSER. NO. I knew since the last line Freyja uttered last episode, he was doomed. I'm going to miss him. He was certainly one of the best written characters in this show.

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

The third party was within the windermere politics.

Where did you even get that? Epsilon (unless I'm deaf, that's the name of this faction) is a Greek name. Why would a proud Windermerian even use a filthy earthling language? It would have been called for glorious wind or something if was from Winderere. From the context is used, IIRC, it implies is external "help". Once again, the Drakes weren't made in Windermere but supplied by the Anti-NUNs, iirc. Don't think it's a coincidence Epsilon is a letter that comes after Delta in Greek Alphabet, huh. Do we know for sure "Lady M" is good? What if this whole foreshadowing she could be Mylenne or Myung a red herring?

Though there is a split between the Windermerian forces. Clearly Roid vs Keith would probably save Delta because Roid is completely against this. Master Herrman is going to back Roid, IMO. He was the one who looked not into revenge and agreed silently with Freyja, he seemed like he has to follow orders and is looking after his students. Besides he is supposed to play a role about offering a Windermerian viewpoint. With that, Bogue might also be torn. He's just portrayed as an angry fifteen years old. I guess redheads must suffer in this show.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Thess

Where did you even get that? Epsilon (unless I'm deaf, that's the name of this faction) is a Greek name. Why would a proud Windermerian even use a filthy earthling language? It would have been called for glorious wind or something if was from Winderere. From the context is used, IIRC, it implies is external "help". Once again, the Drakes weren't made in Windermere but supplied by the Anti-NUNs, iirc. Don't think it's a coincidence Epsilon is a letter that comes after Delta in Greek Alphabet, huh. Do we know for sure "Lady M" is good? What if this whole foreshadowing she could be Mylenne or Myung a red herring?

Though there is a split between the Windermerian forces. Clearly Roid vs Keith would probably save Delta because Roid is completely against this. Master Herrman is going to back Roid, IMO. He was the one who looked not into revenge and agreed silently with Freyja, he seemed like he has to follow orders and is looking after his students. Besides he is supposed to play a role about offering a Windermerian viewpoint. With that, Bogue might also be torn. He's just portrayed as an angry fifteen years old. I guess redheads must suffer in this show.

Actually you already wrote what I mean. It's between the Knight Keith and the Chancellor Roid. Both are powers within windermere but they have different sights.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

Actually you already wrote what I mean. It's between the Knight Keith and the Chancellor Roid. Both are powers within windermere but they have different sights.

It's not just them. Someone else is supplying them weapons. Third faction most of us speak about isn't the divisions of the windermere but another power that is behind the conflict, using their anger and grief like happens all the time in real life.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Thess

Where did you even get that? Epsilon (unless I'm deaf, that's the name of this faction) is a Greek name. Why would a proud Windermerian even use a filthy earthling language? It would have been called for glorious wind or something if was from Winderere. From the context is used, IIRC, it implies is external "help".

More precisely it's the Epsilon Foundation, it's also written on their ship, and they have scales as their crest, apparently, which is totally not ominous at all (actually it got me thinking if we've ever seen scales in the show so far). They're an outside third force. It appears they're behind the machine Windermere is using to transmit Heinz's singing, and now this Berger guy came to offer what is basically an amplifier.

[Alhazred]

As a minor aside, apart from tripping even more death flags for poor Messer and Kaname (via the cliche, "couples that deepen their love under the jellyfish will be together forever," legend), the reactions to the love talk seemed a bit forced this ep. I suppose it's understandable that Mirage was blushing up a storm when the subject turned to intimacy if they want to paint her as an innocent; i wonder how GG is gonna translate 'shoubu pantsu,' 'cause the closest English equivalent i can think of is a bit crude. However, when Hayate proclaimed, "If you're in love then just say it!" Mirage and Freyja exchanged a mutual sideways glance that implies way more consciousness of their respective positions in the love triangle than either of them should have by their characterization so far. I guess they figure they need to finally get the triangle off the ground before the end of the first cour, but i'm still not buying it.

Edit: i so want Mirage to feed Bogue his, "Heh, we can leave the mooks for later," quip with a side of white-hot lead at some point but the non-aces in the squad really weren't firing on all cylinders this time. Guess they had to save up a lot of spotlight for Messer and Keith, but still.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

More precisely it's the Epsilon Foundation, it's also written on their ship, and they have scales as their crest, apparently, which is totally not ominous at all (actually it got me thinking if we've ever seen scales in the show so far). They're an outside third force. It appears they're behind the machine Windermere is using to transmit Heinz's singing, and now this Berger guy came to offer what is basically an amplifier.

Oh my! What if they are just altruistic guys who would give a hand to grieving Windermerians after someone nuked them*! Totally not suspicious at all. Now I'm tempted to rewatch and watch out for scales logos. I don't have time this week, though.

*You would think if they did it to themselves as NUNS claimed, their king would have reacted differently when he was telling his son to avenge them. I'm not saying NUNS did it either, but I doubt they did it either. You would be pissed if someone bombed your house, kill your loved ones, destroy what you got and then report you did it. I don't think that's something anyone can easily forget and forgive. That's the perfect way to make them go to war.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Alhazred

However, when Hayate proclaimed, "If you're in love then just say it!" Mirage and Freyja exchanged a mutual sideways glance that implies way more consciousness of their respective positions in the love triangle than either of them should have by their characterization so far.

That scene was adorable IMO. But I don't think that was supposed to be them being conscious of their own position, more like they both were thinking of the other girl's assumed(?) feelings. Freyja is still not quite over her previous misunderstanding (once you start doubting...), and Mirage is not blind so she most likely thinks that Hayate and Freyja have something going on whether they're aware of it or not. (Later on at the wharf when Hayate is clearly happy for Freyja Mirage looks away.) I don't think they're perceiving the situation as a love triangle per se, more like "those two totally have something going on, and for some reason I'm not entirely OK with that."

Personally, I'm totally on board with how this triangle is "progressing" so far, I hope it will stay low-key like this.

Originally Posted by Thess

*You would think if they did it to themselves as NUNS claimed, their king would have reacted differently when he was telling his son to avenge them. I'm not saying NUNS did it either, but I doubt they did it either. You would be pissed if someone bombed your house, kill your loved ones, destroy what you got and then report you did it. I don't think that's something anyone can easily forget and forgive. That's the perfect way to make them go to war.

Yeah, from what I can see all the Windermerean guys (even those who should know the most about the situation, like the king or Keith or Roid) are completely under the impression that they're the victims, so it's probably true. So far all signs point toward a third side manipulating NUNS and Windermere, which seems to be, at this point, the Epsilon guys.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Yeah, from what I can see all the Windermerean guys (even those who should know the most about the situation, like the king or Keith or Roid) are completely under the impression that they're the victims, so it's probably true. So far all signs point toward a third side manipulating NUNS and Windermere, which seems to be, at this point, the Epsilon guys.

Pretty much what I've seen saying for weeks. The Macross Extra (was it the name? that tie in prequel manga) also introduces a very ominous group experimenting with Vajra and Var... just as Windermere are busy with their independence scuffle. Var isn't just limited to that zone, but it's spread across the galaxy. Such a timing!

[Alhazred]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

That scene was adorable IMO. But I don't think that was supposed to be them being conscious of their own position, more like they both were thinking of the other girl's assumed(?) feelings. Freyja is still not quite over her previous misunderstanding (once you start doubting...), and Mirage is not blind so she most likely thinks that Hayate and Freyja have something going on whether they're aware of it or not. (Later on at the wharf when Hayate is clearly happy for Freyja Mirage looks away.) I don't think they're perceiving the situation as a love triangle per se, more like "those two totally have something going on, and for some reason I'm not entirely OK with that."

Personally, I'm totally on board with how this triangle is "progressing" so far, I hope it will stay low-key like this.

I do like the muted emphasis on love shenanigans as well, i just don't feel like Mirage has dropped enough hints that i buy her side of the exchange. With Freyja, sure; i can see her still being anxious about Mirage and Hayate. However i think the closest Mirage has gotten to showing affection has been her constant focus on Hayate when he's in the cockpit; it's bordering on dangerous distraction, really, but she hasn't had any 'realization' moments like Freyja. As such, it seems like this is the first instance where she's shown concern over Freyja's closeness to him so it struck me as a bit sudden.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Alhazred

I do like the muted emphasis on love shenanigans as well, i just don't really feel like Mirage has dropped enough hints that i buy her side of the exchange. With Freyja, sure; i can see her still being anxious about Mirage and Hayate. However i think the closest Mirage has gotten to showing affection has been her constant focus on Hayate when he's in the cockpit; it's bordering on dangerous distraction, really, but she hasn't had any 'realization' moments like Freyja, i think. As such, it seems like this is the first instance where she's shown concern over Freyja's closeness to him so it struck me as a bit sudden.

Well now that Messer is dead, maybe they'll focus on Mirage (but looks like they'll focus on Windermerians politics next ). I may sound harsh when I speak about her and I don't deny she's likely one of my least favorite characters, but because she's a main character that is being so poorly handled, imo. I'm sure I'll like her more when she actually gets to do things and gets interesting lines: I liked her immaturity in episode 3, but that's it. Things like off screen development like that is fairly obnoxious. Though you can argue that Mirage sounded a little disappointed after she told him her fear of being infected by var and he told her that Freyja would help her, standing and not even looking at her. But it could just be concern about being infected by var, I don't really want to overanalyze it.

In general, they need to actually remember she's a main character. It's like they forget she exists unless they need to drop a reminder this is a triangle or she needs to secretly feel sorry for herself.

[Alhazred]

Originally Posted by Thess

In general, they need to actually remember she's a main character. It's like they forget she exists unless they need to drop a reminder this is a triangle or she needs to secretly feel sorry for herself.

Indeed; hmm... well, with Messer out of the picture leaving Keith to dominate the skies and Windermere getting even more help from their mysterious backers, it looks like Chaos is very much on the back foot at this point. Being forced to retreat and regroup might allow for time to dig into the lives of the pilots (who on average have been provided with far less characterization and backstory than the idols.)

Speaking of the idols though, we learned one more little thing about Mikumo this ep. Apparently she can either hold her breath for a very long time or straight up doesn't need to breathe.

[Tak]

I can only say, this episode had left a rather bitter aftertaste...

- Tak

[AkitoW013]

Originally Posted by Tak

I can only say, this episode had left a rather bitter aftertaste...

- Tak

And you're not alone on this, I expect that Delta will try to avenge Messer in 2 or 3 episodes from now on.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Alhazred

I do like the muted emphasis on love shenanigans as well, i just don't feel like Mirage has dropped enough hints that i buy her side of the exchange. With Freyja, sure; i can see her still being anxious about Mirage and Hayate. However i think the closest Mirage has gotten to showing affection has been her constant focus on Hayate when he's in the cockpit; it's bordering on dangerous distraction, really, but she hasn't had any 'realization' moments like Freyja. As such, it seems like this is the first instance where she's shown concern over Freyja's closeness to him so it struck me as a bit sudden.

But that's what I was saying - that Mirage wasn't all "oh no, I love Hayate and I'm not OK with his clearly very close relationship with Freyja!" It was "yeah, Hayate and Freyja totally have something going on, and I'm not sure why but that doesn't make me feel happy." Or maybe "Hayate totally has a thing for Freyja and I'm not really OK with that." It's similar to what happened with Freyja in the previous episode, really - she didn't exactly have an "I love Hayate!" realization either, all she realized was that she was jealous, but we never saw her actually thinking over what this meant.

Also, in the wharf scene Mirage's concern over Freyja is not just over Hayate. Remember, the scene was about Freyja's success as Walküre. Meanwhile, Mirage is still having her inferiority complex issues over her own (perceived) lack of success at her own job. So basically she feels that even Freyja, who joined the group only a short while ago, has passed her.

Originally Posted by Thess

In general, they need to actually remember she's a main character. It's like they forget she exists unless they need to drop a reminder this is a triangle or she needs to secretly feel sorry for herself.

Mirage's time in the spotlight will definitely come, especially now that Messer is gone and everyone needs to step up their game. So far the focus was on worldbuilding/plot and newcomers Hayate and Freyja establishing themselves as members of their respective groups. That's quite enough focus for 20 minute long episodes. But now both Hayate and Freyja are well-established members of the squadron/Walküre so the writing can branch out.

(Frankly, as much as I adore Hayate and Freyja, if the triangle comes to a conclusion during the course of the series I would be surprised - pleasantly, mind, but surprised - if Mirage wasn't the "winner". IMO currently they're building up to the "poor Mirage feels she has no chance, let's feel sorry for her" phase of her romance arc. )

[Thess]

Messer was among my favorites, and I loved the episode. I don't feel the rage I did

Spoiler for frontier and original show deaths:

when Michel died so dramatically because Messer was dueling and it seemed like a fair outcome of war. Or when Roy died like that. At least he told Kaname she saved him once and was grateful. I think Kaname needed to hear that.

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

(Frankly, as much as I adore Hayate and Freyja, if the triangle comes to a conclusion during the course of the series I would be surprised - pleasantly, mind, but surprised - if Mirage wasn't the "winner". IMO currently they're building up to the "poor Mirage feels she has no chance, let's feel sorry for her" phase of her romance arc. )

If their goal is to create sympathy, I think they have failed, in my case. I don't feel sympathetic toward some silver spooned good family girl who doesn't get what she wants for once in her life. I don't even like Freyja and Hayate as romantic partners, but I have absolutely zero sympathy for Mirage's "struggle" when the other characters have serious problems and drama. Kaname has issues like Mirage but she does her best and doesn't go on to feel sorry for herself. They need to make Mirage very endearing before I get to feel bad for her. Just like they did with Messer and Kaname. She just feels like the Ranka's pityfest 2.0: she was always acting insecure in her relationship and career (when Sheryl was feeling bad, she had an actual reason that isn't just her feelings). Granted Mirage isn't anywhere near so dramatic, but because she doesn't have 1/4 of Ranka's screentime. Freyja and Hayate struggled to be acknowledged by Messer and Mikumo and set that as a goal (Mikumo was specially hard and harsh with Freyja), and they didn't go second guessing themselves. I saw nothing close as this initiative from Mirage; at best she just went "Aaah" when Hayate told her to show her best to Messer (I don't blame her character, look at the dialogue she's given, it's really bad sometimes). Hopefully they'll rectify that soon. They really should have developed her and her relationship to draw in "sympathy" if that's the goal. Like with Misa when Minmay and Hikaru spent Christmas together or when he was with Minmay when she waited for him for hours with their food. You felt sympathetic with Misa's pain because she was fleshed out and she had a relationship with him she felt like the underdog.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Alhazred

I do like the muted emphasis on love shenanigans as well, i just don't feel like Mirage has dropped enough hints that i buy her side of the exchange. With Freyja, sure; i can see her still being anxious about Mirage and Hayate. However i think the closest Mirage has gotten to showing affection has been her constant focus on Hayate when he's in the cockpit; it's bordering on dangerous distraction, really, but she hasn't had any 'realization' moments like Freyja. As such, it seems like this is the first instance where she's shown concern over Freyja's closeness to him so it struck me as a bit sudden.

I think she is more busy being a better pilot than being a better woman. She is focused doing her job well as a member of delta squad and Hayates Wingman or vice versa. What I like most since their personal fight is that they get very good along that they are covering each other and doing flying maneuvers you would not expect from a rookie and a pro. The other thing is. She has still has to realize the present and not the future (See last episode the convesation between Messer and Freyja). In other words, she is just "numb" at the moment.

[Alhazred]

Originally Posted by Thess

If their goal is to create sympathy, I think they have failed, in my case. I don't feel sympathetic toward some silver spooned good family girl who doesn't get what she wants for once in her life.

Er... i'm pretty sure the only concrete things we know about Mirage's past are that she previously served in NUNS where she got her first kill and was badmouthed because she's not a genius pilot like everyone expected her to be because of her family name. We know nothing about her home life, nothing about what she had to do to even get into NUNS if she's not naturally talented at piloting, nothing to indicate that she in any way feels entitled to the fruits of her grandparents' legacy- she might just feel bad because people badmouth her and maybe because she's internalized the insults and feels like she's actually a failure, despite the bar being set unreasonably high -so i really don't understand where you're getting this 'silver spoon' impression from.

Originally Posted by Thess

I don't even like Freyja and Hayate as romantic partners, but I have absolutely zero sympathy for Mirage's "struggle" when the other characters have serious problems and drama. Kaname has issues like Mirage but she does her best and doesn't go on to feel sorry for herself. They need to make Mirage very endearing before I get to feel bad for her. Just like they did with Messer and Kaname. She just feels like the Ranka's pityfest 2.0: she was always acting insecure in her relationship and career (when Sheryl was feeling bad, she had an actual reason that isn't just her feelings). Granted Mirage isn't anywhere near so dramatic, but because she doesn't have 1/4 of Ranka's screentime. Freyja and Hayate struggled to be acknowledged by Messer and Mikumo and set that as a goal (Mikumo was specially hard and harsh with Freyja), and they didn't go second guessing themselves. I saw nothing close as this initiative from Mirage; at best she just went "Aaah" when Hayate told her to show her best to Messer (I don't blame her character, look at the dialogue she's given, it's really bad sometimes).

She doesn't just sulk while Hayate, Freyja and Kaname optimistically soldier on. As we saw after Messer dressed her down for being too 'textbook,' she takes criticism and works very hard to correct her faults. It's not all 'second guessing herself' if the faults are real, and could get her killed. She may let her deficiencies (real or perceived) have a negative impact on her self-image in a way that the more positive, dynamic characters don't, but she doesn't wallow.

Originally Posted by Thess

Hopefully they'll rectify that soon. They really should have developed her and her relationship to draw in "sympathy" if that's the goal. Like with Misa when Minmay and Hikaru spent Christmas together or when he was with Minmay when she waited for him for hours with their food. You felt sympathetic with Misa's pain because she was fleshed out and she had a relationship with him she felt like the underdog.

I hope they give Mirage more character focus soon as well, and i agree that she is poorly used thus far, if she is intended to be a sympathetic main character and co-equal to Freyja in her importance to the story, but a lot of this sounded rather close to bashing, IMHO.

[Darthtabby]

I made the mistake of checking the general discussion thread this morning and got spoiled for Messer's death, which deprived it of much of its impact. Actually it also deprived his "cavalry to the rescue" moment of much of its impact as well (though him showing up to assist probably wasn't entirely unpredictable even without knowing that he was going to die this episode).

While I don't really feel rage over Messer's death I do feel the show lost some of its more interesting romantic/interpersonal relationships because of it.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

I have mixed feelings about Messer's death. I mean it does serve a purpose in the plot, but it's basically the same thing they did in Frontier, and if we go further back in SDF too, so it feels like they're just checking a box in the Macross template. I don't appreciate that. I would have preferred a more original direction.

IIRC, the Macross Frontier version (let's not name names for the sake of franchise newcomers) was originally planned to happen much earlier in the series than it did. I guess for Delta they decided to actually do it early.