Archer - discuss Ep. 14 hints

[rastilin]

Didn't he saved a lot of people?How's that not making him a hero.

Being a hero implies there will be songs, speeches and legends for thousands of years. If you don't get that, you won't get the "hopes of humanity" necessary to become an eirai.

He made the pact to be counter guardian after he realized that he can't protect everyone right?

Apparently, I haven't seen much about the pact. But it's implied that you get the powers of a servant while alive in exchange for being turned into an eirai to serve the world after death. The exact words were "I pledge to serve after death, I would like my reward now." or something similar.

[iamandragon]

Originally Posted by Blade_Lord

Didn't he saved a lot of people?How's that not making him a hero. He made the pact to be counter guardian after he realized that he can't protect everyone right?

Alajubura also did save a lot of people, but he is not a hero, as we don't know him.
In case you don't like my metaphour...having tales passed down is the minimum requirement of being a hero...

[Blade_Lord]

In case you don't like my metaphour...having tales passed down is the minimum requirement of being a hero...

One question.How do you know archer doesn't have tales about him passed down.Unless you lived in Nasuverse after archer died or Nasu said so then you can't make assumption.

[Zarxs]

Originally Posted by Blade_Lord

One question.How do you know archer doesn't have tales about him passed down.Unless you lived in Nasuverse after archer died or Nasu said so then you can't make assumption.

If I am not mistaken those tales and stories only matter if they are in the time period the servant is summoned into. This said I doubt many people would be telling tales of a hero that has yet to be one.

[iamandragon]

Originally Posted by Blade_Lord

One question.How do you know archer doesn't have tales about him passed down.Unless you lived in Nasuverse after archer died or Nasu said so then you can't make assumption.

Becuase Archer was never a human in his life time--he made a pact with the world directly to become a counter guardian, skipping the heroic spirit phase of most others servants. (Normal steps are heroic spirit->counter guardian->servant). He was so twisted after many summonings because all the situations he was summoned to only requires him to kill, kill, kill and kill all the minority to save the majority.

[rastilin]

Becuase Archer was never a human in his life time--he made a pact with the world directly to become a counter guardian, skipping the heroic spirit phase of most others servants. (Normal steps are heroic spirit->counter guardian->servant).

You keep bringing that up but I'm sure it's wrong. He was obviously human because you see him as a person during the events of the game. But more importantly, there isn't a ladder to go through, those terms are not mutually exclusive.

Eirai - All heroes on the throne
Servant - All eirai summoned during the Grail Wars
** The word Servant implies someone who is forced to serve. The term only applies to summoned Eirai.
Counter Guardian - Someone who has made a pact with Akasha to become an Eirai.

Aside from the counter force, the technical difference between Archer and other Eirai is that they get their essence from the collective hopes of humanity. Archer instead gains his essence from Akasha.

My point is that generally fame and Akasha are two different ways to wind up on the throne. Saber, in attempting to become a guardian after becoming an Eirai is an exception and not the standard.

He was so twisted after many summonings because all the situations he was summoned to only requires him to kill, kill, kill and kill all the minority to save the majority.

It's actually surprising how well he holds up considering what he's been through. That guy has spectacular mental fortitude; It wouldn't be surprising if he could take being dunked in the grail without corrupting.

[iamandragon]

Originally Posted by rastilin

You keep bringing that up but I'm sure it's wrong. He was obviously human because you see him as a person during the events of the game. But more importantly, there isn't a ladder to go through, those terms are not mutually exclusive.

Eirai - All heroes on the throne
Servant - All eirai summoned during the Grail Wars
** The word Servant implies someone who is forced to serve. The term only applies to summoned Eirai.
Counter Guardian - Someone who has made a pact with Akasha to become an Eirai.

Aside from the counter force, the technical difference between Archer and other Eirai is that they get their essence from the collective hopes of humanity. Archer instead gains his essence from Akasha. [different paths to become servants.

My point is that generally fame and Akasha are two different ways to wind up on the throne. Saber, in attempting to become a guardian after becoming an Eirai is an exception and not the standard.

Well at least for the servants seen in the 4th and 5th HG War, with Saber and Archer as exceptions, they all become heroic spirits first, while the two took

It's actually surprising how well he holds up considering what he's been through. That guy has spectacular mental fortitude; It wouldn't be surprising if he could take being dunked in the grail without corrupting.

But that is probably he is slightly twisted to begin with. You hardly see anyone else with a sense of justice and never-dying-body like Shirou anywhere in the Nasuverse...

[Blade_Lord]

Originally Posted by iamandragon

Becuase Archer was never a human in his life time--he made a pact with the world directly to become a counter guardian, skipping the heroic spirit phase of most others servants. (Normal steps are heroic spirit->counter guardian->servant). He was so twisted after many summonings because all the situations he was summoned to only requires him to kill, kill, kill and kill all the minority to save the majority.

What are you saying(assuming he comes from fate route) he makes a pact with the world to become counter guardian after the series?By the way who is Akasha??

[rastilin]

What are you saying(assuming he comes from fate route)

Spoiler for Archer:

Everything points to him coming from a route that is almost exactly the same as fate. The only differing detail seems to be that Saber chose to keep pursuing her dream. There's the question of who was Rin's servant during Archer's grail war, but there's no reason why it couldn't be Archer himself, there is no point in which he was not on the throne of heroes.

he makes a pact with the world to become counter guardian after the series?

Yes, in exchange for eternal servitude, Akasha will grant a position on the throne of heroes and one miracle. Or at least a way with which to acquire that miracle.

By the way who is Akasha??

In the nasuverse, Akasha is the spirit of the world; although that could be a different one.

[DarkHonour]

I'd prefer a kind of time paradox where Shirou saw his future in himself and that his fate is inevitable to become a counter-guardian even though he'll go back to his past to attempt to kill his past.

Maybe the branching off point of the alternate worlds is the part whether Sabers accept who she is or whether she chooses to pursue her dream. That's a good idea. :P

[ShinMasaki]

If I may...it is an inactive thread, but I feel I have to intervene on some things here, having just finished all paths in Fate/Stay Night and am now beginning my tour through Hollow/Ataraxia.

Spoiler for info from UBW path:

The typical hero is a hero because of deeds that they have done that immortalizes them in the hearts of people. This applies to both heroes and anti-heroes. Evil spirits immortalized by fear in the hearts and minds of people can also be summoned as heroic spirits as well. The tales of their abilities and deeds is what created heroic spirits out of people.

Spoiler for Absolute Archer spoiler...DO NOT READ IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT ON YOUR OWN:

Spoiler for Birth of a 'Hero':

Emiya Shirou became the Heroic Spirit of Archer for the Fifth Holy Grail War. Emiya however, had no stories of bravery. Emiya Shirou acted on his beliefs and saved people at the cost of himself. People questioned his motives for his actions because he had no reason to do so. There was no reward and he didn't save people to feel better about himself, he did it just because and people looked down on him because of it.

This pact with the world is true, according to events stated in UBW. In the future following the Fate path, Emiya Shirou uses his abilities to protect humanity living by his ideal of becoming a superhero to mankind, where nobody will be sad, everything will be alright.

There came a time when a natural disaster occurred that Emiya was unable to save anyone. Even though the amount in danger was a mere hundred something people, he vowed to save them. Unable to save the people, he made a contract with the world. In exchange for compensation at that moment, he would become a heroic spirit for the world. His desire, of course, is the safety of the people who originally were to die. The people were saved and the contract was made.

When Emiya Shirou died, his soul was already forfeit to the world for use as a Heroic Spirit. In the end, he was made into a scapegoat for a war and executed for the crimes of others. Originally he accepted this believing if he could use the power of the world to help him save people he would gladly hand his soul over for use as a Heroic Spirit/Guardian Spirit.

During the time when he was a spirit, he was summoned by the world several times over to save humanity. Over time, Heroic Spirit Emiya realized a truth about the Heroic Spirits. The Guardians, like himself, were called to save humanity during times of trouble where the existence of the species was at stake. It was always humanity itself that threatened its own existence and he was forced to kill people to save people.

In time, he cursed himself for his ideal. After being summoned and fixing the wrongs done by humanity, the Heroic Spirit faded. His memories left but the experiences remained. He had to kill in order to save. Doomed for the rest of eternity to live with that sin weighing on his existence, Emiya did as was his duty. He wasn't a 'savior of humanity', he was merely a 'cleaner' cleaning up the mess made by humanity. He opted for the quickest route, over time, killing the few in order to save the many. In the end he was betrayed by his own ideal.

Spoiler for reason behind the importance of Rin's necklace:

Archer becomes a heroic spirit and is summoned by Rin because she uses her pendant as the catalyst for the summon. However, Archer already has Rin's pendant. Emiya dies from Lancer and Rin uses the power stored in the pendant to revive him leaving the necklace behind. Emiya keeps the necklace believing it to be important after he wakes. After trading his life to become a heroic spirit upon his death, Emiya still has the pendant keepsake and it becomes the reason for him being summoned by Rin in the Holy Grail War.

Spoiler for Archer's Goal for the 5th Holy Grail War:

Feeling enmity towards humanity and at himself especially for vowing to become a Heroic Spirit, he dreamed of the once in a lifetime chance of correcting his past mistakes by killing his previous self. Knowing that the him that is Archer and the him that is past Emiya are two different people he knows that the death of Emiya will probably not free him from his torture as a Heroic Spirit.

As a Heroic Spirit vowed to the Earth to protect humanity, even the power of the Holy Grail would not free him of his fate; however he believes to himself that if Emiya were to die there is the chance that the world might correct the paradox of past Emiya dead and future Emiya alive. However, he knows this to be a dim hope so he decides to kill Emiya by his own hands hoping that with the increased strain on the paradox being himself (future) killing himself (past) will force the power of the paradox to override the power of the contract.

Spoiler for UBW Ending conclusion:

In the end, Emiya's (past) resolve and determination to follow through with his ideal and live sharing the dream of Kiritsugu breaks through to Archer with Archer admitting defeat to his past self and allowing him to live. The existence of Archer in the UBW path ends with him accepting his role as a guardian of humanity once more still hoping for the time when he can help save humanity but still allow things to end happily for both sides, without him having to take more lives in order to save it.

Spoiler for Archer and the Holy Grail:

Originally Posted by rastilin

It's actually surprising how well he holds up considering what he's been through. That guy has spectacular mental fortitude; It wouldn't be surprising if he could take being dunked in the grail without corrupting.

Judging from the way Archer acts in each story path of Fate/Stay Night, I would have to say Archer's point of origin would have to be the Fate story path. Emiya Shirou in UBW and Heavens Feel are different Emiyas than the one that turned into Archer.

If you recall from the series or the game in the Fate story path, at the end, Emiya Shirou does in fact get immersed in the 'mud' contents of the Holy Grail, the tainted essence. As such, Archer has been 'dunked' in the contents of the Holy Grail and retained his sanity and composure, in fact his resolution and determination actually repelled the 6 billion curses of the Holy Grail (with some help from Avalon).

I realize that this thread has died down with little activity, but if the previous writers were still questioning things about Archer, I feel obligated to respond with my info.

On a side note, Hollow/Ataraxia is so confusing...far worse than Kagetsu Tohya. I've gone through the scenario several times without any real idea of where I'm supposed to end up. I have learned a bit about the Holy Grail and the reason for its corruption but little beyond what is already stated in Heavens Feel of Fate/Stay Night.

[Paladinoras]

Originally Posted by ShinMasaki

If I may...it is an inactive thread, but I feel I have to intervene on some things here, having just finished all paths in Fate/Stay Night and am now beginning my tour through Hollow/Ataraxia.

Spoiler for info from UBW path:

The typical hero is a hero because of deeds that they have done that immortalizes them in the hearts of people. This applies to both heroes and anti-heroes. Evil spirits immortalized by fear in the hearts and minds of people can also be summoned as heroic spirits as well. The tales of their abilities and deeds is what created heroic spirits out of people.

Spoiler for Absolute Archer spoiler...DO NOT READ IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT ON YOUR OWN:

Spoiler for Birth of a 'Hero':

Emiya Shirou became the Heroic Spirit of Archer for the Fifth Holy Grail War. Emiya however, had no stories of bravery. Emiya Shirou acted on his beliefs and saved people at the cost of himself. People questioned his motives for his actions because he had no reason to do so. There was no reward and he didn't save people to feel better about himself, he did it just because and people looked down on him because of it.

This pact with the world is true, according to events stated in UBW. In the future following the Fate path, Emiya Shirou uses his abilities to protect humanity living by his ideal of becoming a superhero to mankind, where nobody will be sad, everything will be alright.

There came a time when a natural disaster occurred that Emiya was unable to save anyone. Even though the amount in danger was a mere hundred something people, he vowed to save them. Unable to save the people, he made a contract with the world. In exchange for compensation at that moment, he would become a heroic spirit for the world. His desire, of course, is the safety of the people who originally were to die. The people were saved and the contract was made.

When Emiya Shirou died, his soul was already forfeit to the world for use as a Heroic Spirit. In the end, he was made into a scapegoat for a war and executed for the crimes of others. Originally he accepted this believing if he could use the power of the world to help him save people he would gladly hand his soul over for use as a Heroic Spirit/Guardian Spirit.

During the time when he was a spirit, he was summoned by the world several times over to save humanity. Over time, Heroic Spirit Emiya realized a truth about the Heroic Spirits. The Guardians, like himself, were called to save humanity during times of trouble where the existence of the species was at stake. It was always humanity itself that threatened its own existence and he was forced to kill people to save people.

In time, he cursed himself for his ideal. After being summoned and fixing the wrongs done by humanity, the Heroic Spirit faded. His memories left but the experiences remained. He had to kill in order to save. Doomed for the rest of eternity to live with that sin weighing on his existence, Emiya did as was his duty. He wasn't a 'savior of humanity', he was merely a 'cleaner' cleaning up the mess made by humanity. He opted for the quickest route, over time, killing the few in order to save the many. In the end he was betrayed by his own ideal.

Spoiler for reason behind the importance of Rin's necklace:

Archer becomes a heroic spirit and is summoned by Rin because she uses her pendant as the catalyst for the summon. However, Archer already has Rin's pendant. Emiya dies from Lancer and Rin uses the power stored in the pendant to revive him leaving the necklace behind. Emiya keeps the necklace believing it to be important after he wakes. After trading his life to become a heroic spirit upon his death, Emiya still has the pendant keepsake and it becomes the reason for him being summoned by Rin in the Holy Grail War.

Spoiler for Archer's Goal for the 5th Holy Grail War:

Feeling enmity towards humanity and at himself especially for vowing to become a Heroic Spirit, he dreamed of the once in a lifetime chance of correcting his past mistakes by killing his previous self. Knowing that the him that is Archer and the him that is past Emiya are two different people he knows that the death of Emiya will probably not free him from his torture as a Heroic Spirit.

As a Heroic Spirit vowed to the Earth to protect humanity, even the power of the Holy Grail would not free him of his fate; however he believes to himself that if Emiya were to die there is the chance that the world might correct the paradox of past Emiya dead and future Emiya alive. However, he knows this to be a dim hope so he decides to kill Emiya by his own hands hoping that with the increased strain on the paradox being himself (future) killing himself (past) will force the power of the paradox to override the power of the contract.

Spoiler for UBW Ending conclusion:

In the end, Emiya's (past) resolve and determination to follow through with his ideal and live sharing the dream of Kiritsugu breaks through to Archer with Archer admitting defeat to his past self and allowing him to live. The existence of Archer in the UBW path ends with him accepting his role as a guardian of humanity once more still hoping for the time when he can help save humanity but still allow things to end happily for both sides, without him having to take more lives in order to save it.

Spoiler for Archer and the Holy Grail:

Judging from the way Archer acts in each story path of Fate/Stay Night, I would have to say Archer's point of origin would have to be the Fate story path. Emiya Shirou in UBW and Heavens Feel are different Emiyas than the one that turned into Archer.

If you recall from the series or the game in the Fate story path, at the end, Emiya Shirou does in fact get immersed in the 'mud' contents of the Holy Grail, the tainted essence. As such, Archer has been 'dunked' in the contents of the Holy Grail and retained his sanity and composure, in fact his resolution and determination actually repelled the 6 billion curses of the Holy Grail (with some help from Avalon).

I realize that this thread has died down with little activity, but if the previous writers were still questioning things about Archer, I feel obligated to respond with my info.

On a side note, Hollow/Ataraxia is so confusing...far worse than Kagetsu Tohya. I've gone through the scenario several times without any real idea of where I'm supposed to end up. I have learned a bit about the Holy Grail and the reason for its corruption but little beyond what is already stated in Heavens Feel of Fate/Stay Night.

Well, Hollow/Ataraxia is only good for its last scene. ..

And Archer's life is pretty much known to all by now..

I never understood the part about him dying though. .

If he is so damn good, how did he get executed?

[ShinMasaki]

Originally Posted by Paladinoras

Well, Hollow/Ataraxia is only good for its last scene. ..

And Archer's life is pretty much known to all by now..

I never understood the part about him dying though. .

If he is so damn good, how did he get executed?

Spoiler for spoiler:

He allowed himself to be executed for the crimes of others. Sure he was good, but if he was able to sacrifice his life to allow everyone else to be happy, he went with it. It made everyone else happy to think that there was a scapegoat that they could blame for the problems. He needed a better New Years' Resolution...

[Paladinoras]

Originally Posted by ShinMasaki

Spoiler for spoiler:

He allowed himself to be executed for the crimes of others. Sure he was good, but if he was able to sacrifice his life to allow everyone else to be happy, he went with it. It made everyone else happy to think that there was a scapegoat that they could blame for the problems. He needed a better New Years' Resolution...

Well, that is just. . .stupid. Seriously. No wonder Archer hated his ideal over time.

Well, at any rate, did they ever explain how he got all those weapons? I know he replicated them, but if he never saw them, how can he replicate them?

[kaizer63]

Originally Posted by Paladinoras

Well, that is just. . .stupid. Seriously. No wonder Archer hated his ideal over time.

Well, at any rate, did they ever explain how he got all those weapons? I know he replicated them, but if he never saw them, how can he replicate them?

It's also how Archer decided he would best be able to use his life. And for his weapons--he got to watch a few Gilgamesh sword spams in his own timeline too. Not to mention being summoned all over the place as a CG would rack up a few more. And K&B were supposed to come from something related to the temple in Fuyuki if I remember correctly.

[Paladinoras]

Originally Posted by kaizer63

It's also how Archer decided he would best be able to use his life. And for his weapons--he got to watch a few Gilgamesh sword spams in his own timeline too. Not to mention being summoned all over the place as a CG would rack up a few more. And K&B were supposed to come from something related to the temple in Fuyuki if I remember correctly.

Man, too bad. UBW is by far the coolest and most powerful Noble Phantasm. . ever.

They should make an Archer route.. .

[ShinMasaki]

Originally Posted by Paladinoras

Man, too bad. UBW is by far the coolest and most powerful Noble Phantasm. . ever.

They should make an Archer route.. .

I do believe that's the UBW route in Fate/Stay Night. UBW is definitely an awesome spell...it's not really a Noble Phantasm. It's a reality marble, a projection of the mage's magic upon the world itself. It's not a Noble Phantasm because...

Spoiler for spoiler:

Shirou can (and does) cast Unlimited Blade Works...it's not limited to just Heroic Spirit Archer

Also, UBW only creates copies of swords seen, it doesn't mean that he can use their abilities. In short, he's much like Gilgamesh, able to summon them but not proficient in their use. His only real attack style is the one that focuses on the usage of Kanshou and Bakuya or his archery skill.

[kaizer63]

Originally Posted by ShinMasaki

Also, UBW only creates copies of swords seen, it doesn't mean that he can use their abilities. In short, he's much like Gilgamesh, able to summon them but not proficient in their use. His only real attack style is the one that focuses on the usage of Kanshou and Bakuya or his archery skill.

Archer is only kind of like Gilgamesh in that while Gil. is an "owner" Archer is a "faker" and actually CAN use the weapons to their greatest ability, as long as there's no requirement in the legend that he doesn't meet. (That limitation is why Shirou can only use the Caliburn special attack while Saber is also holding the sword) Part of UBW is tracing the history of the weapon and that includes every time it's ever been wielded and he's able to "download" that skill for himself, though it only applies to that specific weapon (and its more like the weapons are moving on their own).

Spoiler:

It's for that very reason that Shirou DOES use Nine-lives Blade works, Archer threatens to use an Excaliblast, and is also how, in the anime, Shirou learns to use Kanshou and Byakuya so quickly.

[Shadow Kira01]

Archer's fighting abilities can almost be called copycats as that he doesn't have any originals.

Spoiler:

Unlimited Blade Works is generally the fake version of Gilgamesh's special attack as that Shiro has a similar ability to Sharingan of the Uchiha clan. After the battle with Gilgamesh in which Shiro was easily defeated, he learned to image that attack and it became Unlimited Blade Works but unlike Gilgamesh, those weapons are not the real thing but only copies that will disappear very quickly as his mana depletes.

Kanshou & Bakuya are generally the dual swords which Shiro image due to his encounter with Archer. In other words, these pair of unique dual swords is a creation born out of the time loop. If Archer never went back in time, Shiro would never have seen the blades to image it and thus, Archer wouldn't be using it..

Caladbolg II is generally a fusion image of Gilgamesh's sword and Lancer's Gae Bolg.

Although this makes Archer looks lame but oh well...

[rastilin]

Archer's fighting abilities can almost be called copycats as that he doesn't have any originals.

He does have a few originals.

Spoiler for Original:

Crane Wing Strike
Broken Phantasm (debatably)
True Eye of the Mind
Clairvoyance

The point is that EMIYA desired to follow Kiritsugu's path in becoming the most perfect killer. EMIYA's frightening because he doesn't do it for style or honor or because he enjoys fighting, for him it's all about efficiency.

EDIT: Incidentally, you're spectacularly wrong about UBW. Spectacularly.
EDIT2: Also, K&B are swords that have their own legend. They're not something the show made up.
EDIT3: Kaldbolg is not a fusion of anything, it's Kaldbolg crafted to be fired from a bow.