To Aru Majutsu no Index LN - Genesis Testament 9 Discussion / Poll

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by shmaster

Unfair? You know the person who is truly unfair is Touma himself, who has the entire world revolving around him to let him avoid consequences again and again and again.
Not saying KnT is not hypocritical himself. But telling Touma that his happy end has consequences is totally fair.

I'm not even talking about any meta stuff like that. Acting like Touma rejected KnT out of insecurity rather than the fact that the thing wanted to steal his life is unfair, as is comparing that situation with this one.

Shokuhou? I see her making compromises, not fighting for happiness.
But I'll agree to disagree if you truly believe she is satisfied with her current state of being.

I don't think she's satisfied of course, but that's her problem, not Touma's. It's crazy to say the guy should throw his life away for that.

[shmaster]

Originally Posted by Endscape

I'm not even talking about any meta stuff like that. Acting like Touma rejected KnT out of insecurity rather than the fact that the thing wanted to steal his life is unfair, as is comparing that situation with this one.

But we know KnT is that hypocritical mess because of Touma in the first place?
KnT is not some random evil that fell off the sky to haunt Touma out of nowhere.
Rather, it is Touma's own karma that caused it to end up like that.
What is unfair when it is Touma in full circle in the first place?
I mean, didn't we already went over this in other threads in the past?
My point hasn't changed from other thread. Touma is essentially disrespecting himself.
Then I as a reader has no need to respect him either
He only got by with this with the excuse that he'll achieve happy end on his own merit, and won't make the same mistake to rely on KnT.
But even that excuse goes out of the window this volume.
To think Anna became his harem girl last volume because he doesn't take short cuts for the easy way out, and he just does the direct opposite this volume...

Originally Posted by Endscape

I don't think she's satisfied of course, but that's her problem, not Touma's. It's crazy to say the guy should throw his life away for that.

He doesn't have to. That's why I pity her.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by shmaster

But we know KnT is that hypocritical mess because of Touma in the first place?
KnT is not some random evil that fell off the sky to haunt Touma out of nowhere.
Rather, it is Touma's own karma that caused it to end up like that.
What is unfair when it is Touma in full circle in the first place?

Even if Touma is to blame for it, that doesn't give the thing the right to usurp his life.

Touma is essentially disrespecting himself.
Then I as a reader has no need to respect him either
He only got by with this with the excuse that he'll achieve happy end on his own merit, and won't make the same mistake to rely on KnT.
But even that excuse goes out of the window this volume.
To think Anna became his harem girl last volume because he doesn't take short cuts for the easy way out, and he just does the direct opposite this volume...

See, this is the part I have a problem with. How is he disrespecting himself by changing his stance based on the situation? What's going on now is a far cry from what happened in 22R?

How is Touma finally using the power he has instead of pretending it doesn't exist or it has nothing to do with him taking the easy way out or a short cut? I wouldn't even call what Touma did relying on it since he leveraged a bunch of other stuff as well.

[shmaster]

Originally Posted by Endscape

See, this is the part I have a problem with. How is he disrespecting himself by changing his stance based on the situation? What's going on now is a far cry from what happened in 22R?

How is Touma finally using the power he has instead of pretending it doesn't exist or it has nothing to do with him taking the easy way out or a short cut? I wouldn't even call what Touma did relying on it since he leveraged a bunch of other stuff as well.

Because despite his big talk that he'll not make the same mistake and not rely on KnT again... did he spent any effort to make himself a better person to not make the sane mistake and a person who can live without KnT?
The answer is no.

Let's use IB as an example.
Did he try to improve his fighting prowess so he can better deal with whatever big bad is going to show up next? Or did he just spent his days unprepared and slacking off like he always did?
Will it be so hard to give Accel a call to have him dig up Aleister's old research data on IB?
And provide it to Othinus and come up with ways to bring out IT's untapped potentials?
He knows the limitation if IB good enough, and know IB is his biggest weapon without KnT.
He also have Othinus on his shoulder, who can use IB better than he did to the scope of restoring an entire Phase. And what did he do with all these resources? Nothing.
Did he studied and worked hard like a proper student to fine his ability before the crisis hit?
Or he just take the short cut and pull out KnT?

This is a sharp contrast to Accel who is constantly honing his skill as AC's new mastermind.
I mean, what would you feel if Accel breaks principles by coming out of the jail, calls out the Third Tree and brute force not CRC?
And we know Accel doesn't have to go that route because he learned and improved and better utilized the options he has. While reminding himself that he can't break his principle so he must improve himself at this new game of being a mastermind.

So Touma. No, I won't ask you to be good as Accel. But... did you even try?
Did the idea of "since I am not using KnT anymore, what I can do to better myself" ever cross your mind?

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by shmaster

Because despite his big talk that he'll not make the same mistake and not rely on KnT again... did he spent any effort to make himself a better person to not make the sane mistake and a person who can live without KnT?
The answer is no.

Let's use IB as an example.
Did he try to improve his fighting prowess so he can better deal with whatever big bad is going to show up next? Or did he just spent his days unprepared and slacking off like he always did?

It's literally been less than a month since then. Unlike Accel who has all the time in the world to lay around, Touma actually had to do schoolwork and his part time job so he wouldn't starve to death, not to mention all the stuff that's happened since then. Did you want him to master karate on the side too?

Will it be so hard to give Accel a call to have him dig up Aleister's old research data on IB?

If you actually think Aleister kept that shit anywhere other than his own head (or on Mina, who's no longer in the city), I have a bridge to sell you

And provide it to Othinus and come up with ways to bring out IT's untapped potentials?
He knows the limitation if IB good enough, and know IB is his biggest weapon without KnT.
He also have Othinus on his shoulder, who can use IB better than he did to the scope of restoring an entire Phase. And what did he do with all these resources? Nothing.
Did he studied and worked hard like a proper student to fine his ability before the crisis hit?
Or he just take the short cut and pull out KnT?

Even Othinus does not know what's beyond the right hand. Barring Aleister, who he thought was dead, the only way for him to learn is to do.

I mean, what would you feel if Accel breaks principles by coming out of the jail, calls out the Third Tree and brute force not CRC?

I'd be disappointed, because Accel made an actual commitment by going to jail for real. Touma's talk with KnT was a completely different thing.

[shmaster]

I am not saying Touma has to become a super fighter within a month, the question is he didn't even try. Or he'll, just make money out of IB. AC fundamentally is a Temple designed for IB. And with the Human gone, no one knows in what way AC is currently functioning around IB now. Is it still attracting disaster to Touma? Is the whole phase erasure plan is still running in background on auto pilot? especially you believe Aleister left no data behind?
Setting up a research project on IB is like a top priority when it comes to AC's safety. And you know Esper gets paid for the project they are in? This is win win for everyone. Yet no one think of thus is alarming.

And you make it sounds like contacting Mina is hard. She is supportive of the city still, and she has a cell phone.
Othinus? Irrelevant that she doesn't know IB's secrets. The point is she can use it better than him. She restored an entire Phase when Touma can't even handle normal magics when they are just too many. Did then even try to expand IB's scope of restoration when it is used by Touma?

And if you believe Touma's talk with KnT is just bullshit and not commitment, then it only further proves Touma is not respecting himself.
Because that is equal to bullshiting himself. Again, the deal with KnT is not just Touma having his life stolen, but also his Karma add up and reach the breaking point. It is is his identity problem at core. Which is evident in the self vs. talent question.
And if Touma's response to that is just bullshit, then of course this is self disrespect.
Then his flip flop on this issue shows he cares even less on his identity.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by shmaster

I am not saying Touma has to become a super fighter within a month, the question is he didn't even try.

What do you want him to try in less than a month, especially with how busy he is? To begin with, what could he even learn that would be useful?

Or he'll, just make money out of IB. AC fundamentally is a Temple designed for IB. And with the Human gone, no one knows in what way AC is currently functioning around IB now. Is it still attracting disaster to Touma? Is the whole phase erasure plan is still running in background on auto pilot? especially you believe Aleister left no data behind?
Setting up a research project on IB is like a top priority when it comes to AC's safety. And you know Esper gets paid for the project they are in? This is win win for everyone. Yet no one think of thus is alarming.

Have you been reading too many fanfics or something? Who in their right mind would even pay to use IB in any scientific research?

No way Aleister automated his plan or left any data behind, so it's currently dead in the water.

And you make it sounds like contacting Mina is hard. She is supportive of the city still, and she has a cell phone.

He doesn't have her number.

Othinus? Irrelevant that she doesn't know IB's secrets. The point is she can use it better than him. She restored an entire Phase when Touma can't even handle normal magics when they are just too many. Did then even try to expand IB's scope of restoration when it is used by Touma?

How can she use something better than him if she doesn't even know what it is.

And if you believe Touma's talk with KnT is just bullshit and not commitment, then it only further proves Touma is not respecting himself.
Because that is equal to bullshiting himself. Again, the deal with KnT is not just Touma having his life stolen, but also his Karma add up and reach the breaking point. It is is his identity problem at core. Which is evident in the self vs. talent question.
And if Touma's response to that is just bullshit, then of course this is self disrespect.
Then his flip flop on this issue shows he cares even less on his identity.

Don't put words in my mouth, I didn't say his words were bullshit, I said the situation changed enough that he was forced to do something he didn't really want to.

Should he have kept up the kayfabe even if people died as a result? Is that not bullshitting his main desire to protect people's smiles. That's his first priority.

His identity crisis is a result of him building his identity on a foundation of lies which is what caused this whole problem. Slowly but surely over the course of the series he's been working on creating a foundation for his own life based on what he wants.

[shmaster]

Originally Posted by Endscape

What do you want him to try in less than a month, especially with how busy he is? To begin with, what could he even learn that would be useful?

He doesn't have her number.

I think you just prove my point he didn't even try.
He really can begin with asking his peers to find her number.

Have you been reading too many fanfics or something? Who in their right mind would even pay to use IB in any scientific research?

You argued that the situation changed. Then you should know the understanding around IB changed.
We are in a time we know IB is tied to AC's foundational designs. And AC's new boss is doing the best he can to improve his options in mastering what the old boss left behind.
Seriously, do you think the black box of AC should be left sitting there and continue to be a black box?
Do you think continuing to neglect IT is a responsible way of running the AC?

No way Aleister automated his plan or left any data behind, so it's currently dead in the water.

Your guess is as good as mine?
But either way it does not change the fact it is about time they take proactive action to explore IB themselves.

How can she use something better than him if she doesn't even know what it is.

You forget she did use it once? After she kill Touma, she give up restoring the phase she came from and restore the current phase instead.

Don't put words in my mouth, I didn't say his words were bullshit, I said the situation changed enough that he was forced to do something he didn't really want to.

Should he have kept up the kayfabe even if people died as a result? Is that not bullshitting his main desire to protect people's smiles. That's his first priority.

His identity crisis is a result of him building his identity on a foundation of lies which is what caused this whole problem. Slowly but surely over the course of the series he's been working on creating a foundation for his own life based on what he wants.

Ipartially agree on the last part.
But I don't believe he made any meaningful progress or knows what he wants to do with himself at all.
He has no vision on what he wants to become and just flip flop whenever a new threat shows up.
Sure, he is building a new foundation, but that's not because he has vision on what he wants to become and take proactive steps to change. It is just him adjusting to reality differently from before, with himself if it is for the better or not.
Then his messed up priority where he is willing to risk a person's safety to save another. And then hopefully he can get away with it by relying on things not of his merit.
If anything, I felt his messed up priority has gotten worse. And he himself has no idea on how to deal it with either. That's one reason he messed up on handling Alice two volumes ago.
Everyone's smile? He can't even properly tell what this "everyone" encompass.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by shmaster

I think you just prove my point he didn't even try.
He really can begin with asking his peers to find her number.

None of his peers know her, much less have her number. I'm not even sure if he knows she has a phone.

You argued that the situation changed. Then you should know the understanding around IB changed.
We are in a time we know IB is tied to AC's foundational designs. And AC's new boss is doing the best he can to improve his options in mastering what the old boss left behind.
Seriously, do you think the black box of AC should be left sitting there and continue to be a black box?
Do you think continuing to neglect IT is a responsible way of running the AC?

Accel ain't Aleister, even if he's still doing some stuff like him. He has no intention to continue on with any of his shady plots.

Your guess is as good as mine?

Aleister had all his data in the Windowless Room, with that gone and Mina on walkabout I would eat my hat if he had data on his plan stored elsewhere. It's just not his style.

You forget she did use it once? After she kill Touma, she give up restoring the phase she came from and restore the current phase instead.

That's IB. I'm talking beyond that.

Ipartially agree on the last part.
But I don't believe he made any meaningful progress or knows what he wants to do with himself at all.

I'll strongly disagree with some of this. Touma has come a long way since he woke up on that hospital bed. OT Touma might actually have fallen for KnT's cajolery, but he's grown enough that he can reject the ideal and put his faith in his own shoddy, clumsy way of life, even if he's mid development.

He has no vision on what he wants to become and just flip flop whenever a new threat shows up.
Sure, he is building a new foundation, but that's not because he has vision on what he wants to become and take proactive steps to change. It is just him adjusting to reality differently from before, with himself if it is for the better or not.

I'll actually agree on this point, but I think that's OK. He's still feeling himself out so to speak. It's normal for kids of his age not to know what they're doing, not to mention he's so busy and all his other problems.

Then his messed up priority where he is willing to risk a person's safety to save another. And then hopefully he can get away with it by relying on things not of his merit.
If anything, I felt his messed up priority has gotten worse. And he himself has no idea on how to deal it with either. That's one reason he messed up on handling Alice two volumes ago.

Sure, risking his and other people's lives to protect someone like Anna who doesn't deserve it might be messed up and depending on people to help him but might even more so, but it's a conclusion he came up with himself, even if he had to be branded wrong for it to happen.

And I'd say his issue with Alice was yet another manifestation of his kayfabe problem, not anything about his priorities.

Everyone's smile? He can't even properly tell what this "everyone" encompass.

The fact that he has such a visceral dislike of the Transcendants, who basically epitomize this, tells me he does have a good idea of what it encompasses though.

[shmaster]

Originally Posted by Endscape

None of his peers know her, much less have her number. I'm not even sure if he knows she has a phone.

This not a excuse to not try.

Accel ain't Aleister, even if he's still doing some stuff like him. He has no intention to continue on with any of his shady plots.

Make the research public then. I am not asking Touma to get dissected like a lab rat either.
It is for everyone's benefit for IB and AC's secret out in open. At least for Touma's inner circle.
They have nothing but benefits if they figure this out.

That's IB. I'm talking beyond that.

We don't need it beyond that. We just need to know how Othinus expanded IB's restoration power to Phase scale. And we know Index can replicate Magic God's power on a very specific level like last time with Levinia
Then replicate exactly what allowed Othinus to expand IB's power to phase level.
Don't you think they should try this first instead of having Touma getting exasperated the same old way whenever IB fails him?

I'll strongly disagree with some of this. Touma has come a long way since he woke up on that hospital bed. OT Touma might actually have fallen for KnT's cajolery, but he's grown enough that he can reject the ideal and put his faith in his own shoddy, clumsy way of life, even if he's mid development.

I'll agree to disagree here.

Sure, risking his and other people's lives to protect someone like Anna who doesn't deserve it might be messed up and depending on people to help him but might even more so, but it's a conclusion he came up with himself, even if he had to be branded wrong for it to happen.

So he is making no progress since St. Germain.
I mean did the people he endagered are suddenly not part of his "everyone" ?
What happened this time is a repeat of St.Gwrmain, not CRC is so strong that KnT can't bail Touma out. The only difference is that no one on Touma's side got wiped because Accel has a better plan B.
So again Touma made a bad decision yet avoid responsibility.
That's why I say he is just flip floping and has no idea on what "everyone" is to him.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by shmaster

This not a excuse to not try.

Did you need a scene where Touma asks his peers for the phone number of a woman barely any of them know to exist?

Make the research public then. I am not asking Touma to get dissected like a lab rat either.
It is for everyone's benefit for IB and AC's secret out in open. At least for Touma's inner circle.
They have nothing but benefits if they figure this out.

What research? Like I said, whatever notes Aleister had are gone with the Windowless Building and Mina. Nothing for Accel to publish.

We don't need it beyond that. We just need to know how Othinus expanded IB's restoration power to Phase scale. And we know Index can replicate Magic God's power on a very specific level like last time with Levinia
Then replicate exactly what allowed Othinus to expand IB's power to phase level.
Don't you think they should try this first instead of having Touma getting exasperated the same old way whenever IB fails him?

For argument's sake, let's say this is possible to recreate. How does this help Touma in his day to day battles? It's like Kimi all over again

So he is making no progress since St. Germain.
I mean did the people he endagered are suddenly not part of his "everyone" ?What happened this time is a repeat of St.Gwrmain, not CRC is so strong that KnT can't bail Touma out. The only difference is that no one on Touma's side got wiped because Accel has a better plan B.
So again Touma made a bad decision yet avoid responsibility.
That's why I say he is just flip floping and has no idea on what "everyone" is to him

He already did think about all that, asked for help from his friends and associates about all that and he decided to go through with it anyway, That's actually progress for him, compared to when he refused to tell anyone about anything bothering him at all.

He knows clearly what 'everyone' means to him (or at least he has a better idea since he met the Transcendants) but he also realizes thanks to meeting them, that sometimes life is not so simple and he'll have to go outside of what is ideal for him for his own sake.

[shmaster]

Originally Posted by Endscape

Did you need a scene where Touma asks his peers for the phone number of a woman barely any of them know to exist?

No I want something one step before that. I want a scene Touma being proactive in trying to be stronger and improve on the options he already have.

What research? Like I said, whatever notes Aleister had are gone with the Windowless Building and Mina. Nothing for Accel to publish.

Start a new one? I repeat, Aleister is gone is not a reason to not care. Kazakiri is still around which means the AIM field that Aleister created is still running on its own. For tools that can be used to protect the city immediately, Accel should find out how to reboot that anti magician effect that Aleister did during to Vent fight in OT.
Not to mention the AIM is not meant exist independently but as fuel to refine IB.
Exploring IB will be necessary to fully understand the AIM field in AC.
Really, why are you do bent on believing it is okay to not care. When actually caring about thing like this benefits the city?

For argument's sake, let's say this is possible to recreate. How does this help Touma in his day to day battles? It's like Kimi all over again

It doesn't have to. Because it'll be super valuable when he is in a party wipe situation.
You know, instead waiting for something for someone to provide bail out, be proactive and prepare a bail out yourself.

He already did think about all that, asked for help from his friends and associates about all that and he decided to go through with it anyway, That's actually progress for him, compared to when he refused to tell anyone about anything bothering him at all.

This is not what I am accusing him of.
He learned to rely in his comrade is actually one of his biggest improvements.
My issue with him is his priority is when it comes to "everyone".
Like how he over looked St. Germain last time?
And this time. First, wanting to save Anna is not the issue. That part is fine.
But what about everything else? Are the people getting endagered while saving Anna a part of "everyone"? Or did he even think about that at all?
And if Touma truly think of "everyone" and believe he can make it out this fight safe and sound with all if them in tact, what is the basis of his confidence?
Did he really learned from St. Germain and prepare himself for the next super boss he may face?
Or is he saying big words without knowing the weight of it and needs bail out from some one else again?

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by shmaster

No I want something one step before that. I want a scene Touma being proactive in trying to be stronger and improve on the options he already have.

And I'll ask again. What specifically do you think Touma should do that's actually achievable for him and when should he have found time to do it?

If you can't verbalize that, it's just wishful thinking on your part.

I can say the best thing for Touma to do is just get a gun, but he already had that discussion with Othinus.

Start a new one? I repeat, Aleister is gone is not a reason to not care. Kazakiri is still around which means the AIM field that Aleister created is still running on its own. For tools that can be used to protect the city immediately, Accel should find out how to reboot that anti magician effect that Aleister did during to Vent fight in OT.
Not to mention the AIM is not meant exist independently but as fuel to refine IB.
Exploring IB will be necessary to fully understand the AIM field in AC.
Really, why are you do bent on believing it is okay to not care. When actually caring about thing like this benefits the city?

Why on God's green Earth would Accel want to learn how to recreate the phase crushing effect again?! Remember what that did to Kazakiri and Last Order?! He already found a more moral, if not as effective a replacement.

Really, IB research hasn't ended up as anything decent. They can research AIM fields without it if they have to.

It doesn't have to. Because it'll be super valuable when he is in a party wipe situation.
You know, instead waiting for something for someone to provide bail out, be proactive and prepare a bail out yourself.

Even if, and that's a big if, IB could be used that way normally, messing with the phases like that rarely ends well. It's like blowing up a house to kill a microbe.

This is not what I am accusing him of.
He learned to rely in his comrade is actually one of his biggest improvements.
My issue with him is his priority is when it comes to "everyone".
Like how he over looked St. Germain last time?
And this time. First, wanting to save Anna is not the issue. That part is fine.
But what about everything else? Are the people getting endagered while saving Anna a part of "everyone"? Or did he even think about that at all?

He did think about that! He agonised over it, asked for advice and came up with an answer.

And if Touma truly think of "everyone" and believe he can make it out this fight safe and sound with all if them in tact, what is the basis of his confidence?
Did he really learned from St. Germain and prepare himself for the next super boss he may face?
Or is he saying big words without knowing the weight of it and needs bail out from some one else again?

Touma never thought he could make it out safe with everyone like that with 100%!

He knew it was a risk and did it anyway.

The whole reason he even did something he didn't even want to do with KnT is because it was a risk he took in the first place and so he had to make it happen no matter what.

[shmaster]

Originally Posted by Endscape

And I'll ask again. What specifically do you think Touma should do that's actually achievable for him and when should he have found time to do it?

If you can't verbalize that, it's just wishful thinking on your part.

I already did. Try get a hold of Mina.
And you are the person who us coming up with excuses for him not to do it.
When there is no excuse to not try at all.

Why on God's green Earth would Accel want to learn how to recreate the phase crushing effect again?! Remember what that did to Kazakiri and Last Order?! He already found a more moral, if not as effective a replacement.

Really, IB research hasn't ended up as anything decent. They can research AIM fields without it if they have to.

Didn't you just spell it out why research is needed? Of course he can't let Last Orde's brain fry.
Explore other options. Like substituting the the calculation process with himself?
Or try upgrade the entire firmware of the AIM field now that the Third Tree, product of Misaka Network, has been installed into the worldly phases.
And I say get IB involves necessary.
What has been happening around IB is negative thus far is because Aleister set ot up that way.
Now the man is no longer in charge. It is time to take a.positice.appraoch about it.

Even if, and that's a big if, IB could be used that way normally, messing with the phases like that rarely ends well. It's like blowing up a house to kill a microbe.

Seriously, why are you always so negative and assume everything will fail?
Now are you going to accuse Accel for coming up with Third Tree that altered the cosmic order and tell him he should have not done that because what if the universe explode?

He did think about that! He agonised over it, asked for advice and came up with an answer.
Touma never thought he could make it out safe with everyone like that with 100%!
He knew it was a risk and did it anyway.

The whole reason he even did something he didn't even want to do with KnT is because it was a risk he took in the first place and so he had to make it happen no matter what.

But things only worked out fine because he have good comrades.
And his best is no longer enough, even with KnT.

In other words, he is in another situation he takes no responsibility (because if casualties occur in this case, the responsibilityis so big that someone will have to clean it up for him.)
Did you see we are now back to the original problem of Touma taking no consequences again?
Sure, it is right for him to ask his comrades for help. And yes, he deserve to be helped for what he did for rhem. And yes, they are willing to help Touma because they want to be useful to Touma too.
But Touma, I am sure you didn't make friends for the purpose of having them fight for you, right?
Did you notice you are running into situations where your comrades have to take responsibility FOR you, and not WITH you because you are making claims that is far above your capacity.

Not saying he has to be super strong over night to take responsibility. But did he even half as much awareness compare to say Mikoto in knowing "I am weak, and I need to do everything I have to be strong. And I know that's still not enough"?
That's why I see no value in Touma's decision in using KnT.
KnT had failed multiple time before super bosses in NT already. It can't even finish off a drastically weakened Coronzo. Is he really that wishful thinking to believe using KnT is good enough to take responsibility for his big words?
It only shows his ignorance to how weak he is in front of the ever escalating threats he is facing right now.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by shmaster

I already did. Try get a hold of Mina.
And you are the person who us coming up with excuses for him not to do it.
When there is no excuse to not try at all.

And I already established why that would be futile. You just want Kamachi to waste page time showing Touma "trying" stuff he can't actually do.

Didn't you just spell it out why research is needed? Of course he can't let Last Orde's brain fry.
Explore other options. Like substituting the the calculation process with himself?
Or try upgrade the entire firmware of the AIM field now that the Third Tree, product of Misaka Network, has been installed into the worldly phases.
And I say get IB involves necessary.
What has been happening around IB is negative thus far is because Aleister set ot up that way.
Now the man is no longer in charge. It is time to take a.positice.appraoch about it.

He did explore other options. Ones that don't involve playing around with potentially country or world destroying phase fuckery. Some things are better left alone.

Seriously, why are you always so negative and assume everything will fail?
Now are you going to accuse Accel for coming up with Third Tree that altered the cosmic order and tell him he should have not done that because what if the universe explode?

The same Third Tree that the narration points out is going to have serious unintended consequences?

Every time this phase stuff is brought up, it's mentioned over and over again how dangerous it is. In less than a year, there have been multiple occasions where AC phase research could have blown up the whole city or the whole country at a minimum.

But things only worked out fine because he have good comrades.
And his best is no longer enough, even with KnT.

In other words, he is in another situation he takes no responsibility (because if casualties occur in this case, the responsibilityis so big that someone will have to clean it up for him.)
Did you see we are now back to the original problem of Touma taking no consequences again?

The moment Touma decided to try and save Anna despite the risk and accepted help for it he was already taking responsibility. That's the whole reason he bent his principle in the first place. That's him taking responsibility. Your idea that if Touma doesn't do everything alone from start to finish or he's not being responsible about it is just weird.

Sure, it is right for him to ask his comrades for help. And yes, he deserve to be helped for what he did for rhem. And yes, they are willing to help Touma because they want to be useful to Touma too.
But Touma, I am sure you didn't make friends for the purpose of having them fight for you, right?
Did you notice you are running into situations where your comrades have to take responsibility FOR you, and not WITH you because you are making claims that is far above your capacity.

And now you're talking to same nonsense as the fake Saint Germain. Touma isn't God. He didn't put a gun to anyone's head to make them help him. They chose to help him of their own accord. He has to take his responsibility for starting it, but they have to take responsibility for getting themselves involved.

Not saying he has to be super strong over night to take responsibility. But did he even half as much awareness compare to say Mikoto in knowing "I am weak, and I need to do everything I have to be strong. And I know that's still not enough"?
That's why I see no value in Touma's decision in using KnT.
KnT had failed multiple time before super bosses in NT already. It can't even finish off a drastically weakened Coronzo. Is he really that wishful thinking to believe using KnT is good enough to take responsibility for his big words?
It only shows his ignorance to how weak he is in front of the ever escalating threats he is facing right now.

Now we get to the crux of the issue. You're comparing Touma with people like Mikoto and Accel even though he simply does not have the resources they do. Mikoto could set up a whole club with Tokiwadai's money to fix the AAA, Accel has the authority to weaponize a particle accelerator, Touma nearly starved to death twice in a month.

They aren't the same and treating them that way is again just wishful thinking.

[shmaster]

Originally Posted by Endscape

And I already established why that would be futile. You just want Kamachi to waste page time showing Touma "trying" stuff he can't actually do.

I'll agree to disagree then.
But I stand that denying something as futile before even trying is true futility.

The same Third Tree that the narration points out is going to have serious unintended consequences?

Every time this phase stuff is brought up, it's mentioned over and over again how dangerous it is. In less than a year, there have been multiple occasions where AC phase research could have blown up the whole city or the whole country at a minimum.

But will you fault Accel for that in fighting a world ending threat?
Especially we are having these type of threats at increasing frequency?

The moment Touma decided to try and save Anna despite the risk and accepted help for it he was already taking responsibility. That's the whole reason he bent his principle in the first place. That's him taking responsibility. Your idea that if Touma doesn't do everything alone from start to finish or he's not being responsible about it is just weird.

Didn't I say this is not the problem. Touma asking for help and hus comrade helping him are perfectly fine. The issue is that fighting with someone is different from people fighting for you.
Can you not see how Touma has become increasingly useless before the ever power inflating super bosses?
What you are saying is that it is fine Touma to continue to job and leech off his comrades for victory?
Since Touma's harem is so loyal to him, he can just continue to take leverage in them because they'll end up saying yes to him in one way or another?
Having people to rely on is no excuse to not improve yourself. Especially you are making claims far above your capabilities.
What's worse that he breaking principle in using KnT is essential asking someone to fight for him as well. Just he asked someone he hates instead of someone he trusts.

Now we get to the crux of the issue. You're comparing Touma with people like Mikoto and Accel even though he simply does not have the resources they do. Mikoto could set up a whole club with Tokiwadai's money to fix the AAA, Accel has the authority to weaponize a particle accelerator, Touma nearly starved to death twice in a month.

They aren't the same and treating them that way is again just wishful thinking.

And this just sounds like more excuse to even not try.
Touma, if you are going to rely on your harem so much to fight for you now. Why not just ask your harem members in England to host you there? I am sure you'll have a better living condition there and better chance at improving yourself. At least that sounds like a better approach at life than crying for help last minute when a super boss shows ip.

[Endscape]

You double-posted.

Originally Posted by shmaster

I'll agree to disagree then.
But I stand that denying something as futile before even trying is true futility.

Touma has actually had discussions about things he can actually do, like carry gun, other weapons, etc and why he doesn't want to do it. That's the sort of trying he needs to do, not chasing after windmills.

But will you fault Accel for that in fighting a world ending threat?
Especially we are having these type of threats at increasing frequency?

I don't fault him for what he had to do in the heat of the moment. But that also isn't an excuse for him to risk the world blowing up to fight a potential threat in the future.

Didn't I say this is not the problem. Touma asking for help and hus comrade helping him are perfectly fine. The issue is that fighting with someone is different from people fighting for you.

So how exactly do you define this difference then? Do other people not have free will to you or something?

Can you not see how Touma has become increasingly useless before the ever power inflating super bosses?
What you are saying is that it is fine Touma to continue to job and leech off his comrades for victory?
Since Touma's harem is so loyal to him, he can just continue to take leverage in them because they'll end up saying yes to him in one way or another?
Having people to rely on is no excuse to not improve yourself. Especially you are making claims far above your capabilities.
What's worse that he breaking principle in using KnT is essential asking someone to fight for him as well. Just he asked someone he hates instead of someone he trusts.And this just sounds like more excuse to even not try.
Touma, if you are going to rely on your harem so much to fight for you now. Why not just ask your harem members in England to host you there? I am sure you'll have a better living condition there and better chance at improving yourself. At least that sounds like a better approach at life than crying for help last minute when a super boss shows up.

I'm saying Touma is just one person with limited resources. Unlike Mikoto or Accel he can't easily figure out ways to improve himself and the enemies aren't going to wait on him to. He has to work with what he has in reality.

What you're doing is essentially blaming someone who lives in poverty for not having tens of thousands of dollars in their bank account to do stuff.

[shmaster]

Originally Posted by Endscape

So how exactly do you define this difference then? Do other people not have free will to you or something?

This is not the issue of those who helped Touma, but Touma himself.
His comrade did a lot to be able to fight along side him. But did Touma did anything to live up to the effort they spent?
His stagnation has been going on for too long, and it was happening since when he was still in the I'll keep everything myself period.
And I was wanting him to open up to his friends so they can have more mutual understanding, which hopefully can make Touma less reckless and less self destructive if he understandhiw importanthe is to them.
Definitely not because I want Touna to become some one who turns to his friends for bail outs with even crazier demands than before.

I'm saying Touma is just one person with limited resources. Unlike Mikoto or Accel he can't easily figure out ways to improve himself and the enemies aren't going to wait on him to. He has to work with what he has in reality.

What you're doing is essentially blaming someone who lives in poverty for not having tens of thousands of dollars in their bank account to do stuff.

Than ask them for money before asking them to risk their lives.
I don't like this example myself. But Touma, if jobbing reapeatly and crying for help in the end is going to be your new fighting style. Then ask them for money first before their lives if you still have some dignity in you. And please make their investment on you worthwhile.

And even I take a hundred steps back and be fine with Touma being a person who bets on others to provide a rescue... there is still a huge difference between the Touma breaking down in need for someone to be on his side, and Maria who peaked this volume by peristed with pure faith in Touma to stand up again.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by shmaster

This is not the issue of those who helped Touma, but Touma himself.
His comrade did a lot to be able to fight along side him. But did Touma did anything to live up to the effort they spent?

Of course it's an issue of those who helped Touma, the only one who can decide if he's living up their efforts is they themselves not him.

The reason they helped Touma even though Anna doesn't deserve it is not just because they like him, but because he saw the humanity in someone they already wrote off, because they themselves were in positions where people wrote them off once. That makes him worthwhile for them.

Than ask them for money before asking them to risk their lives.
I don't like this example myself. But Touma, if jobbing reapeatly and crying for help in the end is going to be your new fighting style. Then ask them for money first before their lives if you still have some dignity in you. And please make their investment on you worthwhile.

It's funny because this is the exact opposite of Touma's belief system, mixed metaphors aside. Touma has grown to the point where he'll ask for help with his problems but he won't ask for money.

If I play the metaphor straight then no, it's not he kind of simple one to one thing they can easily help him with.

[shmaster]

Originally Posted by Endscape

Of course it's an issue of those who helped Touma, the only one who can decide if he's living up their efforts is they themselves not him.

Hence why I bring up Maria as example.
She has absolute faith in him before an team wipe, and she only know him for a short period of time.
Compare to the way Touma breaks down in the beginning of the volume.
Do you really think he has as much faith in his harem as as they do to him?
If he has half as much faith as Maria, he'll be standing firm on the ground insteaf of having a break down, and make advance knowing his comrades will eventually catch up from behind.