To Aru Majutsu no Index LN - New Testament Volume 15 Discussion / Poll

[LazyHunter]

Originally Posted by OH&S

Oh yeah. Hmm... I guess its legit. But that just makes WR far too overpowered. Which then leads to another line another question; namely, the question posed at the beginning of NT15:

How the hell could IT lose to incomplete Othinus but defeat THAT!?

Assuming it's just WR doing that and that Dark Matter doesn't play a part, yeah, it's a bit much. Honestly, it would be ovepowered even if they don't have their Phase powers, so they might be even weaker than their nerfed versions with their normal magic, because otherwise Yuiitsu could summon a group of invulnerable magicians who can likely wipe out cities or countries off the map. Still, I would like to see what kind of normal magic they would have, like High Priest and his dirt powers, Niang-Niang and her Pao-Pei and Nephthys and her sand body and super vibration cry.

IT is inconsistent between appearances, so there's likely some conditions to its power, just like IB and WR have theirs.

[Marcus H.]

I think it's time for what's actually inside Imagine Breaker to show up.

[WiliamZ0]

Originally Posted by OH&S

There's a small problem with that reasoning though. Back during NT4, I would have accepted that but what does the 50% dilemma for Othinus actually mean practically? It means either 50% failure or 50% success; i.e. 50% full power magic god, 50% fail. Regardless of how she works with the dilemma, at the end her power will be at 100% magic god level at maximum.

And WR can beat Othinus. And IT can beat WR. And Othinus beat IT.

See the problem here?

I see the problem, That's why I say I might be wrong, right?

but again, I'm under assumption that the 50% is not what lead you to full power Magic God but the chance to win against any form of power / people / anything outside the realm

[LevelSeven]

Originally Posted by OH&S

There's a small problem with that reasoning though. Back during NT4, I would have accepted that but what does the 50% dilemma for Othinus actually mean practically? It means either 50% failure or 50% success; i.e. 50% full power magic god, 50% fail. Regardless of how she works with the dilemma, at the end her power will be at 100% magic god level at maximum.

but maybe, only maybe,
the 50%-mode actually grants real omnipotence and the 100% are actually lowering the overall power for the sake of everytime successful magic use
thinking about it makes sense, othinus needed gungnir, a magic tool, she had "programms" with the magic tool basically like any usual magician but on a far larger scale... so this could actually mean that majiins wrongly assumed that their 100%-mode-spells are stronger than 50%-spells

[OH&S]

Originally Posted by LazyHunter

IT is inconsistent between appearances, so there's likely some conditions to its power, just like IB and WR have theirs.

You know, I've been thinking about it and IB's power explanation is inconsistent to me as well.

Let me explain:

Supposedly IB and WR are 'cut from the same cloth' so to speak. However when we look at WR's activation condition, there's a clear difference. WR only works when the target "possesses conflicting desires in their heart, which cause them to waver and not focus on a single path, clinging to their current world while at the same time wishing for a new world."

In other words, its defined by the target's internal desires. If there is conflict, things the target's 'world is rejected' and they are exiled to their ideal world. It's also why Kamisato always asks "Do you wish for a new world?".

In short, WR's name, base kanji, activation condition and associated catchphrase perfectly match each other.

But Imagine Breaker doesn't. Its name, base kanji and catchphrase seem to match alright. But its activation condition just doesn't make sense or fit any theme. His power works regardless of whether the target's illusion has been broken or not.

I feel like this is an important difference between the two powers.

[LazyHunter]

@OH&S
There's been hints and people saying Touma using IB right/to its full potential, and he seems to knows less about it than Kakeru seems to do about WR or Fiamma does about HR. Off the three right hand users he's the only one who appears to have missed receiving an instructions manual. With the IB being described as a reference point for the world and all that, it's clear there's more to it than Touma thinks.

IB is supposed to "restore the world to normal/allow people to retun to reality" instead of "creating a new world/allow people to escape reality" like WR does. Maybe you could spin it by saying that when he's negating magic/esper powers IB is doing its job: he's breaking/killing the illusion magicians/espers have of transforming the world by returning it to its proper state. Magicians seem to learn magic to achieve some sort of goal/dream (western magicians have the magic names and all), and espers are basically people who cause changes in reality with their minds due to their Personal Reality, in a way you could say they are so chuuni that they can impose their illusions and view of reality on the world and everyone else.

[OH&S]

Originally Posted by LazyHunter

@OH&S
There's been hints and people saying Touma using IB right/to its full potential, and he seems to knows less about it than Kakeru seems to do about WR or Fiamma does about HR. Off the three right hand users he's the only one who appears to have missed receiving an instructions manual. With the IB being described as a reference point for the world and all that, it's clear there's more to it than Touma thinks.

IB is supposed to "restore the world to normal/allow people to retun to reality" instead of "creating a new world/allow people to escape reality" like WR does. Maybe you could spin it by saying that when he's negating magic/esper powers IB is doing its job: he's breaking/killing the illusion magicians/espers have of transforming the world by returning it to its proper state. Magicians seem to learn magic to achieve some sort of goal/dream (western magicians have the magic names and all), and espers are basically people who cause changes in reality with their minds due to their Personal Reality, in a way you could say they are so chuuni that they can impose their illusions and view of reality on the world and everyone else.

In principle, I agree with everything here. But it doesn't quite address the mismatch of IB's activation condition that's been bothering me. I also agree that its fairly obvious that whenever IB becomes complete and shows what its true capability is, it'll solve the mismatch problem.

[The One Above God]

Shit, I got chills from that picture with Yuuitsu. What the heck is even happening anymore .

[Tartare25]

Originally Posted by OH&S

How the hell could IT lose to incomplete Othinus but defeat THAT!?

The real question is how can Imagine Breaker seal Invisible Thing if it more powerful than Holy Right and World Rejector. Logically it shouldn't work like that.

[LevelSeven]

Originally Posted by Tartare25

The real question is how can Imagine Breaker seal Invisible Thing if it more powerful than Holy Right and World Rejector. Logically it shouldn't work like that.

IB negates supernatural stuff, IT seems to be a stronger version but it is now stated that they arent connected, that means IT can very welm be a supernatural thing too, and IB constantly negates.it... since we dont see its full extend it could be very well possible that it can constantly stop IT who is at least a able to destroy a planet level attack

[Marcus H.]

Shit, I got chills from that picture with Yuuitsu. What the heck is even happening anymore .

Same. The only things that had the same spine-chilling effect were HAMAZURAAAAAAAAAA Mugino and Othinus' first appearance in NT3.

[zibi88]

Originally Posted by Tartare25

The real question is how can Imagine Breaker seal Invisible Thing if it more powerful than Holy Right and World Rejector. Logically it shouldn't work like that.

Other possibility is simply that 99% of IB full power is used to restrain that IT inside so the power that touma is using is just the missing 1% of the full thing.

If IT left toumas body then maybe he would gain IB as it should be from the beggining.

[Inept Forum User]

I don't intend to form any opinions until the complete picture is clear, though a few of the fragments have left me feeling a little...uneasy.

Nice to see the designs of the previously unseen Magic Gods.

Spoiler for Minor things from atwiki & RS:

• At least 44 new singular names appeared when the NT15 subject list on atwiki was made. It seems somewhat likely that a fair number of these are members of the Kamisato Faction.
• Immortality seems to have been mentioned in the description accompanying Salome's design on Rainbow Spectrum (the 2nd one, #4 - #1 and #2 have apparently been sealed off). Form and context not yet verified.

[Eliah1102]

Everyone seems to have forgot that WR has a slight time lag and thats the reason IT was able to beat him, Kakeru himself explains it in the epilogue of NT14.

[Tiken]

I saw somebody bring up the 50/50 rule that Othinus was subjected to when she was an imperfect magic god. I realize that it is unlikely, but maybe that is the case with Yuiitsu.

I mean, think about it. She herself is not a magic god, and its unknown whether or not she is actually controlling them if that picture is legit. What if she is just rolling the dice by using their power? In other words, yes, she is incredibly powerful right now, but maybe that power come at an equally steep and risky price.

It may not be the same as with Othinus and her 50% chance of failure due to a luck of the draw effect, but one human being in command of all that power seriously must have a hidden cost or side effect associated with it.

[DragonXX]

So Salome is immortal?
Also I thought the reason this IT was more powerful then the one in NT4 was because the AIM Disfusion field does something to IT?
Also about those Dark Matter Magic God Zombie can they use there Nerf power, if so why because Esper power and Magic does not get along?
There at least one thing to be true those Zombies would be easier to kill then High Priest because there make of Dark Matter.
So far the only Magic God that were a danger were Othunis, High Priest and Nephthys, all the other were kill like folder enemy.
At least we know how NT16 will end, which Yuuitsu being killed by a more powerful enemy that will come out of no where.
Is it just me or is the crazyness started to get old and the artuor need to calm down in To aru series?
To be honest I more hype for the Laura spoiler that was her laughing at Crowley at the end of NT15 then, what the artuor bet doing which Yuuitsu.
Had anyone else see the same thing as me which OT being Order well as NT continue it just bet going to Chaos.
I am waited for the out of nowhere Ailen attack because so far the artour have bet all about the crazy when I just want him to calm down.
Also who think that NT15 and NT16 is a two parter or will we start a new arc in NT16 not a Story Arc just a book Arc?

[DragonXX]

Originally Posted by Tiken

I saw somebody bring up the 50/50 rule that Othinus was subjected to when she was an imperfect magic god. I realize that it is unlikely, but maybe that is the case with Yuiitsu.

I mean, think about it. She herself is not a magic god, and its unknown whether or not she is actually controlling them if that picture is legit. What if she is just rolling the dice by using their power? In other words, yes, she is incredibly powerful right now, but maybe that power come at an equally steep and risky price.

It may not be the same as with Othinus and her 50% chance of failure due to a luck of the draw effect, but one human being in command of all that power seriously must have a hidden cost or side effect associated with it.

I don't think so because I think the Nerf Magic Gods are weaker then 50% Othunis.

[Chosen_Hero]

^Correction: They were far stronger than her, even with their self imposed nerf to be able to even appear in the phase the earth exists on without destroying everything (and that took away more than half of their power) and then with Aleister and Noukans nerf that cut their already halved power even more. Heck, they even laugh at Othinus for not being able to reach their phase, that's how strong they were.

[Ravagerblade]

I can't help but think Othinus had gotten some form of Amnesia, just another trait like Touma in common! lol

There has to be a reason why she wasn't on their level, and I think that plays a part in it.

[DragonXX]

Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero

^Correction: They were far stronger than her, even with their self imposed nerf to be able to even appear in the phase the earth exists on without destroying everything (and that took away more than half of their power) and then with Aleister and Noukans nerf that cut their already halved power even more. Heck, they even laugh at Othinus for not being able to reach their phase, that's how strong they were.

I mean they are not as powerful 50% Othunis do to all there nerfing and some people seen to have forget that Touma was going to use IT on High Priest in NT13 to stop him when he was coming back which the comet to Earth but then Noukan kill High Priest before Touma let IT out.

Well I think at this moment that NT16 will be the second part to NT15 and then NT 17 would be about Kumokawa Seria and Touma past.
NT18-NT20 will be the final arc of this Story Arc and the Science Side will have it first big lost like WWIII was for the Magic Side.

Hopefully we will get some great info on IT and IB in Seria and Touma past and the Final Arc of this Story Arc becasue IT have play a role in both NT13 and NT14 and even NT15 even if it was only at the beginning of NT15 and was just seeing the end of Touma and Kamisato fight from Touma side.