AnimeSuki Forums

MeoTwister5 · 2022-05-02, 20:42

"Supreme Court draft opinion that would overturn Roe v. Wade published by Politico

This is huge.

[MOD edit] Link to first post after the decision was handed down.

Key Board · 2022-05-02, 23:41

I would like to be wrong about this

Quote:

Originally Posted by Key Board

Roe and Wade next
and the immigration act of 1965 after that

//

ramlaen · 2022-05-03, 01:46

Regardless of your ideological position on abortion the actual Roe vs. Wade ruling was terrible from a legal/constitutional context and that appears to be the basis of it being overturned here.

cyberdemon · 2022-05-03, 10:17

Give it a couple decades and even this will be overturned. Our country is too divided to find middle ground.

However it is short sighted for conservatives. They only care about the birth, not what comes after it. This is just going to lead to a generation of people needing more government handouts than the conservatives are willing to give giving rise to more people willing to vote in liberals in order to get it.

ramlaen · 2022-05-03, 11:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

Give it a couple decades and even this will be overturned. Our country is too divided to find middle ground.

However it is short sighted for conservatives. They only care about the birth, not what comes after it. This is just going to lead to a generation of people needing more government handouts than the conservatives are willing to give giving rise to more people willing to vote in liberals in order to get it.

I hope you realize that the underlying argument you are making is that we must kill people in order to lower government spending.

cyberdemon · 2022-05-03, 12:39

I may not like abortion but It’s a necessary evil if the system can’t be bothered to take care of the life they forced into existence.

ramlaen · 2022-05-03, 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

I may not like abortion but It’s a necessary evil if the system can’t be bothered to take care of the life they forced into existence.

I think most would consider killing someone in order to reduce government spending as simply "evil" and not a "necessary evil".

cyberdemon · 2022-05-03, 14:45

It’s not just about that. A rape victim shouldn’t be forced to carry her rapists child. A child shouldn’t have to give birth because she was raped or taken advantage of. All I’m saying is that the almost complete ban on abortion like in states like Texas are going to bite conservatives in the ass in the long term. It’s a necessary evil. To ban it will just breed enmity in the long run.

Key Board · 2022-05-03, 14:51

A zygote isn't a person.
The body naturally aborts less than perfect fetuses during the first trimester.

and you're telling me we're supposed to treat this as sacred from the moment on conception

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

It’s not just about that. A rape victim shouldn’t be forced to carry her rapists child. A child shouldn’t have to give birth because she was raped or taken advantage of. All I’m saying is that the complete ban on abortion like in states like Texas are going to bite conservatives in the ass in the long term. It’s a necessary evil.

Like what's happening in Poland with Ukrainian rape victims.

//

ganbaru · 2022-05-03, 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Key Board

A zygote isn't a person.
The body naturally aborts less than perfect fetuses during the first trimester.

and you're telling me we're supposed to treat this as sacred from the moment on conception

and lets not forget about than they will stop to care the very minute the child is born.

ramlaen · 2022-05-03, 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

It’s not just about that. A rape victim shouldn’t be forced to carry her rapists child. A child shouldn’t have to give birth because she was raped or taken advantage of. All I’m saying is that the almost complete ban on abortion like in states like Texas are going to bite conservatives in the ass in the long term. It’s a necessary evil. To ban it will just breed enmity in the long run.

It's a difficult moral question but I suspect that the child of a rape victim would choose to live if given the choice.

GDB · 2022-05-03, 16:44

I hope you don't masturbate then, because I'm sure those sperm would like to become children too. And what about the sperm that don't fertilize an egg? That's murder too, by conservative standards. So even giving getting pregnant is murder, because you had to sacrifice all those other sperm.

Or are you happy to draw an arbitrary line AFTER the man's role is done and it's 100% on the woman to have to carry the burden?

cyberdemon · 2022-05-03, 16:57

The government can sacrifice thousands of lives (except their own) in wars of their own creation. Draft people against their will for those wars. Murder innocent people in those wars even if by accident. And yet claim it’s murder to abort a fetus when no one can even agree when or if it is considered alive. As I’ve said, they only care about a “life” until it is born.

Ithekro · 2022-05-03, 17:58

Abortion was one of those topics that could not be easily debated in high school or college debate classes because the primary reasons for and against are not debating the same topic. Frequently they talk past each other without resolution.

cyberdemon · 2022-05-03, 18:25

One essentially comes down to morality yet holds sense of apathy towards victims that borders on cruelty that they refuse to acknowledge based on their “morality”. The other at least acknowledges the cruelty of the of the situation yet empathizes with the victims and the need for necessary evil. Essentially an idealist vs a realist.

Jaden · 2022-05-05, 07:46

There's no obviously correct policy for abortion. In the end, some arbitrary lines must be drawn that most citizens find acceptable. Leaving it to the states isn't really ideal, because the main arbitary line is the point at which abortion becomes murder. And if you can get away with the murder just by driving to another city where it's considered abortion, what's even the point of the law? It's an issue that wants to be solved country-wide.

The inability of the US federal government to do this is the reason why a flimsy basis like Roe v Wade was used to settle things. It's one of those loopholes found by society, when democracy fails to produce a result. That's why I'm a bit surprised if it gets overturned without any alternative solution.

Tenzen12 · 2022-05-05, 09:05

I mean it's not like conservatives (at least for now) are trying ban all abortions altogether. Arguments I usually hear is they are against late abortions. To be honest I am on board with something like "heartbeat act". It's arbitrary line but it should be drawn somewhere.

Key Board · 2022-05-05, 16:41

The fetal heartbeat law restricts the window to 5 weeks, which is nowhere near enough for a poor income family.

If you want to use physiology, than a fetus doesn't develop a consciousness until around the 25th week.

That means Japan's law is closest to that, offering service until the 21st week, and that's still a lot more time that the proposed fetal heartbeat law

//

cyberdemon · 2022-05-05, 17:32

My personal thoughts are that life starts at brain activity. A heartbeat only means the blood is flowing. A fully developed brain is when life is truly born.

serenade_beta · 2022-05-05, 17:51

People generally seem to care about animals based off if they can feel emotions, are smart, etc, etc. And stuff like amoebas, which are alive but only have instincts, can be killed and no one cares.
When do scientists say babies start to think and stuff? Just use that as a base.
There is a reason people spend time to research that type of stuff.

2022-05-02, 20:42	Link #1
MeoTwister5 Komrades of Kitamura Kou Join Date: Jul 2004 Age: 39	US Supreme Court overturns Roe vs. Wade "Supreme Court draft opinion that would overturn Roe v. Wade published by Politico This is huge. [MOD edit] Link to first post after the decision was handed down. __________________ Medical Student vs. Anime Last Exile - Fam the Silver Wing - Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2022-06-26 at 00:36.

2022-05-03, 10:17	Link #4
cyberdemon Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007	Give it a couple decades and even this will be overturned. Our country is too divided to find middle ground. However it is short sighted for conservatives. They only care about the birth, not what comes after it. This is just going to lead to a generation of people needing more government handouts than the conservatives are willing to give giving rise to more people willing to vote in liberals in order to get it. __________________

2022-05-03, 12:39	Link #6
cyberdemon Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007	I may not like abortion but It’s a necessary evil if the system can’t be bothered to take care of the life they forced into existence. __________________

2022-05-03, 14:45	Link #8
cyberdemon Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007	It’s not just about that. A rape victim shouldn’t be forced to carry her rapists child. A child shouldn’t have to give birth because she was raped or taken advantage of. All I’m saying is that the almost complete ban on abortion like in states like Texas are going to bite conservatives in the ass in the long term. It’s a necessary evil. To ban it will just breed enmity in the long run. __________________ Last edited by cyberdemon; 2022-05-03 at 15:05.

2022-05-03, 16:57	Link #13
cyberdemon Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007	The government can sacrifice thousands of lives (except their own) in wars of their own creation. Draft people against their will for those wars. Murder innocent people in those wars even if by accident. And yet claim it’s murder to abort a fetus when no one can even agree when or if it is considered alive. As I’ve said, they only care about a “life” until it is born. __________________

2022-05-03, 01:46	Link #3
ramlaen Senior Member Join Date: May 2006	Regardless of your ideological position on abortion the actual Roe vs. Wade ruling was terrible from a legal/constitutional context and that appears to be the basis of it being overturned here.

2022-05-03, 16:44	Link #12
GDB Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Age: 38	I hope you don't masturbate then, because I'm sure those sperm would like to become children too. And what about the sperm that don't fertilize an egg? That's murder too, by conservative standards. So even giving getting pregnant is murder, because you had to sacrifice all those other sperm. Or are you happy to draw an arbitrary line AFTER the man's role is done and it's 100% on the woman to have to carry the burden?

2022-05-03, 17:58	Link #14
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	Abortion was one of those topics that could not be easily debated in high school or college debate classes because the primary reasons for and against are not debating the same topic. Frequently they talk past each other without resolution. __________________ Last edited by Ithekro; 2022-05-03 at 19:47.

2022-05-03, 18:25	Link #15
cyberdemon Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007	One essentially comes down to morality yet holds sense of apathy towards victims that borders on cruelty that they refuse to acknowledge based on their “morality”. The other at least acknowledges the cruelty of the of the situation yet empathizes with the victims and the need for necessary evil. Essentially an idealist vs a realist. __________________

2022-05-05, 07:46	Link #16
Jaden Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006	There's no obviously correct policy for abortion. In the end, some arbitrary lines must be drawn that most citizens find acceptable. Leaving it to the states isn't really ideal, because the main arbitary line is the point at which abortion becomes murder. And if you can get away with the murder just by driving to another city where it's considered abortion, what's even the point of the law? It's an issue that wants to be solved country-wide. The inability of the US federal government to do this is the reason why a flimsy basis like Roe v Wade was used to settle things. It's one of those loopholes found by society, when democracy fails to produce a result. That's why I'm a bit surprised if it gets overturned without any alternative solution. __________________

2022-05-05, 09:05	Link #17
Tenzen12 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2012	I mean it's not like conservatives (at least for now) are trying ban all abortions altogether. Arguments I usually hear is they are against late abortions. To be honest I am on board with something like "heartbeat act". It's arbitrary line but it should be drawn somewhere. __________________ "I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% of how I react to it" (Charles R. Swindoll)

2022-05-05, 16:41	Link #18
Key Board Carbon Join Date: Nov 2003	The fetal heartbeat law restricts the window to 5 weeks, which is nowhere near enough for a poor income family. If you want to use physiology, than a fetus doesn't develop a consciousness until around the 25th week. That means Japan's law is closest to that, offering service until the 21st week, and that's still a lot more time that the proposed fetal heartbeat law // __________________ "Legitimacy is based on three things. First of all, the people who are asked to obey authority have to feel like they have a voice—that if they speak up, they will be heard. Second, the law has to be predictable. There has to be a reasonable expectation that the rules tomorrow are going to be roughly the same as the rules today. And third, the authority has to be fair. It can’t treat one group differently from another.” Malcolm Gladwell

2022-05-05, 17:32	Link #19
cyberdemon Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007	My personal thoughts are that life starts at brain activity. A heartbeat only means the blood is flowing. A fully developed brain is when life is truly born. __________________

2022-05-05, 17:51	Link #20
serenade_beta そのおっぱいで13才 Join Date: Dec 2006	People generally seem to care about animals based off if they can feel emotions, are smart, etc, etc. And stuff like amoebas, which are alive but only have instincts, can be killed and no one cares. When do scientists say babies start to think and stuff? Just use that as a base. There is a reason people spend time to research that type of stuff. __________________ -Blog --> http://tdnshumi.blogspot.com/ (Mainly about video games) -R.I.P. Hiroshi Yamauchi, Gaming wouldn't have been the same without you (9/19/13)