Attack on Titan The Finale Season (Episode 60 onwards) - Anime Episode Discussion

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by EroBotan

but the brainwashing of eldian to make them think that they're guilty for the crime of their ancestors that happen hundred years ago is similar to the current year americans.

You can still see Germans in that, and unlike Americans Germans have been "walled" and split into two sides.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by EroBotan

you probably have realize it but in case you haven't. Marelyan is German and Eldian that is in the concentration camp are jews.

Yes, but I'd be leery of pushing the comparison too far.

but the brainwashing of eldian to make them think that they're guilty for the crime of their ancestors that happen hundred years ago is similar to the current year americans.

That's a very American view.

[EroBotan]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

You can still see Germans in that, and unlike Americans Germans have been "walled" and split into two sides.

i think there is no "u're guilty for what your ancestors did" crap in german during world war. Both west and east german are the same race afterall, so logically that kind of brainwashing is impossible. I mean in the west and east german's case, "the other side's ancestor is also his ancestor".

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Yes, but I'd be leery of pushing the comparison too far.

why not? the prison city, the arm band, continous monitoring by the authority, no court and just straight to prison/death sentence if they accuse you of something, etc are exactly what happen to the jews in german. Marleyan is also in world conquest mode just like german during WW1 and WW2

That's a very American view.

i live in asia for my entire life so far. And it might surprise you but we're fine with the Spain, Holland, Portugese, Japanese, Mongolians,and England. No grudge at all.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by EroBotan

i think there is no "u're guilty for what your ancestors did" crap in german during world war. Both west and east german are the same race afterall, so logically that kind of brainwashing is impossible. I mean in the west and east german's case, "the other side's ancestor is also his ancestor".

I'm not even sure what you're trying to say about Americans. Or Germans. If anyone's going to give the Germans a bad time for their predecessors, it'd be about the Nazis, and the East-West separation was after WW2.

why not? the prison city, the arm band, continous monitoring by the authority, no court and just straight to prison/death sentence if they accuse you of something, etc are exactly what happen to the jews in german. Marleyan is also in world conquest mode just like german during WW1 and WW2

The Jews never conquered the world, and they can't turn into giant monsters. As for one Jewish family secretly pulling the strings of the world's sole superpower, well, let's just say that kind of tinfoil hattery is best not thought about. AoT is its own, fictional, story. Not a thinly disguised history of the real world. Even if, yes, some historical elements were borrowed from.

i live in asia for my entire life so far. And it might surprise you but we're fine with the Spain, Holland, Portugese, Japanese, Mongolians,and England. No grudge at all.

It's not about how the former colonies feel.

My point is, a history with actions that look abhorrent to our modern sensibilities isn't an American monopoly. Neither is a feeling of guilt about them. Or resentment about that guilt from a part of the population that often has zero problems claiming pride in their ancestors' achievements.

[Jan-Poo]

At this point I'm not even sure what Americans are supposed to be "brainwashed" about according to Erobotan. Is he talking about the conquest of America... which was done by Europeans and where Spain did the worst? Is he talking about slavery, where England was the main responsible for the trafficking?

What I know is that there isn't a day where a vast number of countries in the world commemorates the victims of atrocities committed by Americans, but there is one for the victims of atrocities committed by Nazi.

[Yuuu]

Great review of the episode!

Attack on Titan Declaration of War Review

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Kanon

I'm curious to read your impression on the newest episode

To be honest, I was kind of mistaken saying that I would have to look at the show differently. In hindsight, this show has always been rather accepting of collateral damage as a means to an end and its not even as if this is the first time Eren's actions have led to collateral (e.g Eren vs Annie). It is certainly the first time Eren has done so deliberately but I guess what I'm trying to say is that the conclusion isn't really that surprising. To his credit, Isayama will certainly throw his characters through a moral quandary over it but it seems he's pretty consistent on what he thinks are an ultimate means to an end. One can look at this in two ways: either Isayama is making a point on how current affairs needs to be or he's simply portraying the evil backwardness of history as is. Its hard to come to a conclusion here: on the one hand, I feel like Paradis Island and King Fritz are a quintessential Japanese revisionist take on Japan's role in WW2 and if they're both the history of their respectively worlds then by extension, the current events in the story are meant to portray today's world. On the other hand, this show has been about as subtle as a brick to the face when it comes to everything else so portraying Isayama as some kind of master of metaphor feels like giving him a little too much credit and it is just possible that the political connotations are more just a side effect of Isayama's beliefs that he hasn't really thought through much but decided its good enough for an edgy dark fantasy. After all, he's basically just playing on Godwin's Law here. There seems to be some debate above about it being about America but I don't know what that's about. I'd also be leery of any kind of Western-centric interpretation: this is a Japanese author after all.

But yeah, it was a super intense episode. Looks like Eren's plan was a team operation too, but I did notice he said the letters were for his comrades, not family. I'm guessing Eren's either gone rogue with followers or he officially commands his own unit in the corps without Armin and Mikasa. It also hasn't gone unnoticed that when Reiner said he wanted to be killed, Eren's response was "yeah we really are alike after all". In any case, he's front and centre of the stage now (literally too).

[EroBotan]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

If anyone's going to give the Germans a bad time for their predecessors, it'd be about the Nazis, and the East-West separation was after WW2.

if we talk about the whole case, the berlin wall case is indeed similar but since you only quoted me on the brainwashing part i assumed you only want to focus on the brainwashing.

Eldyan is teached by marley that their ancestors are evil race and has to atone by being enslaved by marley. Isn't this similar with american these days? a lot of them feel guilty and responsible for what Columbus did. I think schools/universities plays a big part in these brainwashing.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Is he talking about the conquest of America... which was done by Europeans and where Spain did the worst? Is he talking about slavery, where England was the main responsible for the trafficking?

Assuming that is true it means that american people has been brainwashed so thoroughly that they feel they're one who is responsible for what england & spain have done in the past. The only element that is still missing is the civil war where the brainwashed self hating americans (enslaved eldyans) start to attack the normal americans (walled eldyans).

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

The Jews never conquered the world, and they can't turn into giant monsters. As for one Jewish family secretly pulling the strings of the world's sole superpower, well, let's just say that kind of tinfoil hattery is best not thought about. AoT is its own, fictional, story. Not a thinly disguised history of the real world. Even if, yes, some historical elements were borrowed from.

I never mentioned any of these. Maybe you read someone else's post and mistake it as mine?

the similarities that i mentioned are how the eldyans are put into prison city, have to wear armband, if marleyan suspect them they go stratigh to prison/death sentence without any court. As for the brainwashing, I said it's similar to what happen to americans because i don't think german care about brainwashing the jews so i bring up another country as example.

[Jan-Poo]

I don't think any U.S. American feels responsible for what Columbus did, he was an Italian sailor acting under Spain's command. Hell, Columbus didn't even visit any of the territories that would later become the U.S. If anything the recent popular criticism toward Columbus in the U.S (but mind you, not in any Latin American country) is due to the fact U.S. Americans do not believe they have anything to do with him, and it's mainly Italian-Americans that defend him.

If there's something U.S. Americans should feel guilty about is how they treated Native Americans in the course of the years after obtaining Independence (Originally England didn't even fight them and instead allied with some tribes), but of course that's not what they think about, it's the Italian sailor working for Spain the true villain.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by EroBotan

if we talk about the whole case, the berlin wall case

The Berlin Wall had a completely different role from the AoT walls.

is indeed similar but since you only quoted me on the brainwashing part i assumed you only want to focus on the brainwashing.

Eldyan is teached by marley that their ancestors are evil race and has to atone by being enslaved by marley. Isn't this similar with american these days? a lot of them feel guilty and responsible for what Columbus did. I think schools/universities plays a big part in these brainwashing.


Assuming that is true it means that american people has been brainwashed so thoroughly that they feel they're one who is responsible for what england & spain have done in the past. The only element that is still missing is the civil war where the brainwashed self hating americans (enslaved eldyans) start to attack the normal americans (walled eldyans).

Teaching history isn't brainwashing. And like I said, the USA isn't the only country to do that.

I never mentioned any of these. Maybe you read someone else's post and mistake it as mine?

the similarities that i mentioned are how the eldyans are put into prison city, have to wear armband, if marleyan suspect them they go stratigh to prison/death sentence without any court. As for the brainwashing, I said it's similar to what happen to americans because i don't think german care about brainwashing the jews so i bring up another country as example.

My point, since you didn't get it, is that the similarities only go so far and the trying to pigeonhole the fictional AoT people into having RL counterparts is of limited merit.

[Chosen_Hero]

Wow, how telling that the only person in this WW2 allegory that was nice to the Jew allegories and that didn't stay for the declaration of war was the Japanese delegate.

I had heard and read a few things from other people about this season and how it kind of reads like history revisionism or Holocause apologism and boy, does it feel like it at times.

So who do you cheer for in this kind of story? On one side you have the Jew allegories who can turn into literal monsters who have totally been evil throughout history guys (remember they ate/murdered, raped and ensalved three times the in-world existing world wide population), except that one group that wanted peace that took refuge on a small island nation (really subtle there) that now seem to want to kill everyone in the world or something, I guess? While on the other you have literal Nazi's and Nazi sympathizers... But remember, the Japanese totally have nothing to do with it, and they are also naturally born super humans that can fight the meat mech menace with their bare hands.

With that said, I do like the idea of Eren being the true villain, especially considering how much he sucks as a hero, but so far the only people that are shown to be against him are basically just Nazis and their sympathizers and I don't feel comfortable cheering for any character on that side no matter how much the story is trying to make them feel sympathetic.

[Jan-Poo]

At this point I think everyone can see whatever they want in this anime's factions. Maybe the truth is that they aren't anything specific but Khimera made of different elements taken from real world factions.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero

But remember, the Japanese totally have nothing to do with it, and they are also naturally born super humans that can fight the meat mech menace with their bare hands.

Just saying, but if you mean Mikasa, she didn't get it from the Japanese side of her family.

[Guido]

Way back to 2013 when season one was airing I expressed my thoughts that I should not rush at judging Annie, Reiner, and Bertholdt for what they did in Paradis Island due that believable characters in order to be relatable they must possess a certain type of multi-faceted and multi-layered personalities. That means that their motivations for doing things cannot be childish nor cartoonish.

Hence, this episode delivered the needed and grand, pay-off for Reiner's group. After all, Attack on Titan has been recalling the audience that we are all flawed humans able to disagree at moments and later on to come to agreement at dire times, though not necessarily successfully.
Labels such as heroes, villains, and the such are just tags or qualifiers, subjective and abstract and relative in the greater scheme of things.

While Eren has come to understand Reiners' motives for what the latter did and empathize with his former comrades' pleas, he could not let slide what Willy Tybur proclaimed on-stage: they're all people who do not wish to die, because they were borned into the world and cannot help it anymore.
Therefore, Eren has steeled himself clearing all distractions and doubts from his thoughts, that he's resolved to slaughter the enemies no matter the cost because no one has left him a choice. In fact, I'm pretty sure that Eren already understood such conclusion four years back realizing that choice was just a fleeting 'dream' and can do nothing else but rampage his way forward until Paradis gets freedom even if that means literally waging war against the whole world.

For Eren, his truth is clear: it's either killed or be killed; an unfortunate reminder that humans are forever shackled in the shroud of nature and cannot escape it rather cope with it.

Now, the time has come for the starving wolves returning the favor with a big comeuppance upon the pigs; the nine-years wait for Paradis's retribution is officially over as Eren's attack titan replies back with his own declaration of war to the whole world.

[EroKing]

Mikasa and others look like such battle-hardened soldiers now. You can really tell by the face how much they have changed, their young, innocent self no longer there.


How the turntables...

This war was inevitable once the Marleyans broke peace and attacked Paradis Island to try and steal the Founding Titan. However, Eren's actions here led to the death of innocent lives as well. It's impossible to see a good or bad side anymore. But with characters like Jean and Mikasa still sensible enough to not give in to hate, maybe there won't be a complete bloodbath at the end of the show and hopefully some version of peace lol

[Haak]

"All sides are devils. Collateral was inevitable. It couldn't be helped. War is inevitable"

These are the main takeaways that are present this episode and sure enough they're about as subtle as a hammer to the face so now I'm finding it much much harder to believe the messaging in this show isn't a sign of Isayama's hawkism now. And it's important to note that because all the takeaways above are generally the same rationale used by hawks to justify pretty much anything and I have serious misgivings about that.

It was a really action packed episode for what it's worth and seeing the old crew back as a formidable unit was a hell of a scene though. It's just marred by the unfortunately obvious messaging. It won't stop me from appreciating all the other aspects of the story but it is what it is and it's no use pretending otherwise.

[Kanon]

While watching Eren vs Warhammer, all I could think about is how much better this would have looked in the old staff's hands. And then the survey corps came in... and were also CGI during swinging. It's pretty sad, honestly. I could understand CGI titans, but not this.

There were still some good scenes, like Levi's entrance and Porco shitting himself. Turning Eldians into titans on Paradis as a punishment ended up biting Marley in the ass. Hard.

[Wandering Soul]

I get the Titans being CGI, but why did the survey corps have to CGI too? The old art style really did look better. It was still a nice action packed episode.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Haak

These are the main takeaways that are present this episode and sure enough they're about as subtle as a hammer to the face so now I'm finding it much much harder to believe the messaging in this show isn't a sign of Isayama's hawkism now. And it's important to note that because all the takeaways above are generally the same rationale used by hawks to justify pretty much anything and I have serious misgivings about that.

You are misinterpreting the story. This isn't a story that glorifies hawkism, it's a story that shows those who have that kind of view and those who in spite of everything don't want to yield to that mentality. This is why you have Mikasa telling Eren to stop that madness and go back, and Jean arguing against Floch on killing civilians.

[Router25]

Just to remind the reason for CGI is because it IS rushed.
Imma just hope the BD would fix that.