Log Horizon S2 - Episode 17 Discussion / Poll

[Master Assassin]

Originally Posted by the one above all

Of all the people Tohya could have fell for it to be her.

And I was just about to ask whether the Roe2/Tohya boat is in port... though considering Roe2's backstory I'm a bit too doubtful to ask for a ticket to hop on.

EDIT: Of course, I forgot about Nureha.

[ramlaen]

Eins is going full on communism.

[Hypernova]

WTF is wrong with Honesty's guild master advocating communism and shit. Surely he's old enough to know how well that works out in real life.

[Benigmatica]

The problem lies with Honesty's growing number of leechers, so redistributing wealth that's similar to communism won't work unless Eins force those leechers to either work or booted out.

[Random14]

Those Odyssey Knights are kind of creepy, in some ways the creepiest thing yet as those are fellow Adventurers, compared to unknown monsters.

Roe 2 is hilarious and friendly, and having Nureha join the group just made things a lot more potentially explosive. There are still elements of the "fun, simple quest" they started out with (like when Roe 2 summoned those skeletons, rejected in favor of a cute little dog, who even the skeletons love), but those ominous Round Table meetings seem a bit of a sudden change.

Seemed like they just liked having parties until now, but guess those festivals served another purpose too. Though having that shady Honesty (wonder if that name is intentionally misleading or ironic) guildmaster pushing for more extreme measures doesn't help. Even worse after how the anti-PVP system was shut down and the Round Table lost some of their enforcement ability (with selling the bank to Yamato itself, but its better to remove that from the playing field entirely, especially with how expensive it was to maintain).

[whitecloud]

those odyssey knight remind me of those dark soul hollow....

anyway, i wonder what should be done with the bottom feeder, in a way it resemble RL beggar problem and those minimum income worker that even now still unsolvable

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by Hypernova

WTF is wrong with Honesty's guild master advocating communism and shit. Surely he's old enough to know how well that works out in real life.

It isn't about age. Even now there is lot of people who belive communism is correct system even among of these who experienced it on in first hand.

[Jan-Poo]

Sure Mamare got guts for portraying in his story what is essentially a discussion on Communism
At this point he'll have to make the characters reach a settlement on the issue, which will inevitably show his own political ideas.

Personally I think that at most they could ensure food for everyone (but only the common dishes). Shelters shouldn't be an issue as they should be provided by each guild, illnesses of any kind do not exist for adventurers so medical expenses are zero already. Whatever do adventurers need to simply live in Akiba?

RMT no longer exists so the economy should actually be fairer than what it is in most MMORPGs.

[Tenzen12]

Food is not issue, it was said early that you need to do minimum to survive, issue is surviving is not same thing as living (or contributing to society).

[Proto]

WTF is wrong with Honesty's guild master advocating communism and shit. Surely he's old enough to know how well that works out in real life.

The ideas were more akin to socialism rather than communism and he's not really off the mark. Capitalism tempered with ideas extracted from socialism like welfare, minimum wage, universal medical care and unemployment wages have demonstrated to be one of the best social and economical systems humanity has developed so far.

The thing is that the series presents an interesting problem that we will be facing in the middle-term future: when the existing economic system becomes efficient enough that people don't really have to worry about survival. This will become more of an issue in the real world as automation of an increasing number of jobs becomes more and more pervasive, and the economic machinery becomes self sufficient/there's simply not enough jobs for everyone. What do people live for then when they don't have/can't really work to survive? Guaranteeing an universal minimal wage and promotion of creative endeavors are certainly something that will alleviate the issue, but is that sufficient for everyone? Mamare presents here a very interesting quandary, and I'm really looking forward to where does he/she take it.

[Tenzen12]

Nah, adventurers have no trouble with survivol, it's more like already existing situation when one doesn't HAVE TO worry about job as they can easily live out of unemployment insurence.

Problem in Akiba is bit different, people work have high living standart, people who doesn't... doesn't. Gap between both classes is getting wider and in near future leechers will DEMAND same things as working class without actualy doing same amount of work.

[Yan3242]

I think those oddysey people are the best example of what happen if you die and revive waay too much, not just memory, they probably has no more emotion aka living doll.

About akihabara problem It just like shirou said, their problem is not their poor living, its their "leeching" life. They demand the same quality life but they almost didnt do any contribution to akihabara or to anyone else, they just doing this for themself.

Giving them some "care package" will not solve the problem, it just make thing worse because they just keep asking for more while the "comfort" one will angry to you because you take their stuff and give it to leecher just because you told so. Keep that up and its 100% riot and chaos in the future.

I can fully understand the leecher part because its pretty much my situation now, i will be 30 this year and still unemployed and live in my parent house, everyday i have good eat and good sleep and do nothing else aside from keep trying to look for job. The only difference between me and those leecher in akihabara is that i actually feel bad about this while they probably not

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Food is not issue, it was said early that you need to do minimum to survive, issue is surviving is not same thing as living (or contributing to society).

Food in this world is not a mere matter of survival though. We have learned that all food is horrible unless prepared by someone with culinary skill. One could get depressed quickly if the only thing he could eat was stale tasteless stuff his whole life.

When I said "ensure food for everyone" I meant "real" food, which certainly comes with a cost.

[Gundamx]

Worst part is that they can just hunt > sell materials, but they refused to do that...........
And that why the gab become bigger...

It's like Group A = Crafter and Hunter/raider
Groupe B = leechers

Give group A 0 gold, and group B 100 gold,
>After week, group A will have more than 100G while leechers group will have lesser than 100G.

And they continue doing nothing for 1~2years >>>>>>> and than they wonder why they have no to little gold compare to worker group A

[Chaos2Frozen]

As I recall, the origin of the guild Honesty is literally in their name.

They're the group that post raid strategies and share other secrets online for everyone as opposed to say Issac's Black Knights who are more of the Elitist group.

I guess that mentality carries on into this reality, but unlike when this is just a game- nobody likes a person who expect things to be handed out to them.

Amusingly, this reminds me that little thread someone said about living in an Anime world is better than the real world because it's so much more exciting- I guess there really is no cure for a dame ningen

[~Yami~]

well.. Honesty might feel pressure since they are not succeed at making Teaching so far
and Crusty is surely missed as "calm" person in the board

meanwhile, Roe2 is an interesting person
and Minori's pouting face after remembering Akatsuki was funny

a slow episode but I'm enjoying this
so many creepy things happening at Minami

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Gundamx

Worst part is that they can just hunt > sell materials, but they refused to do that...........
And that why the gab become bigger...

It's like Group A = Crafter and Hunter/raider
Groupe B = leechers

Give group A 0 gold, and group B 100 gold,
>After week, group A will have more than 100G while leechers group will have lesser than 100G.

And they continue doing nothing for 1~2years >>>>>>> and than they wonder why they have no to little gold compare to worker group A

As someone who played MMORPGs for several years I can say that things aren't so simple. Work isn't really rewarded fairly and equally.

You make it look like the leechers should just go hunting and get money like the rest, but we have seen since season 1 that the major guilds have monopolized the best hunting spots. Even then hunting is most likely a very unrewarding job because anyone can do it and there's inevitably a lot of competition.

The main issue that was brought up in this episode is that substantially those who have gained special teachings and those who have developed new crafting recipes are growing disproportionately rich compared to the rest. Moreover the Honesty leader is suggesting that the major guilds are establishing monopolies which would of course prevent smaller groups to compete.

It's not just the leechers that are poor but even hunters and merchants that work as much as everyone else, and some of them are driven into the leechers pool because they get fed up of working their ass off to gain spare money.

[Yan3242]

So basically they are just lazy unmotivated bunch? They keep sulking and sulking looking at those "comfort" group while keep saying "why?"

If this in a guild in mmorpg, they probably got a warning or get booted from guild, sadly we are talking about a town citizen here not guild, to top it off akihabara is now free PK zone, do something aggresive to them and they might plot something bad.

[DQueenie13]

I think Jan-Poo was trying to say that they're not necessarily lazy, it's that even if/when they tried working, there was no benefit from it because those who had the advantages first milked it for all they had.

Akiba can't solve its problems the way Minami does, as Shiroe noted this episode. Not sure why the anime cut out the part where the Ten Seats were discussing about the city's affairs, unless they're covering it later.

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Food in this world is not a mere matter of survival though. We have learned that all food is horrible unless prepared by someone with culinary skill. One could get depressed quickly if the only thing he could eat was stale tasteless stuff his whole life.

When I said "ensure food for everyone" I meant "real" food, which certainly comes with a cost.

Nah, "real food" became for sure naturaly pretty cheap by now, not mention every bigger guild have at least one cook and it's members have either food for free or with discount. But even without it it's nothing that couldn't be solved by few low level mobs.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

As someone who played MMORPGs for several years I can say that things aren't so simple. Work isn't really rewarded fairly and equally.

You make it look like the leechers should just go hunting and get money like the rest, but we have seen since season 1 that the major guilds have monopolized the best hunting spots. Even then hunting is most likely a very unrewarding job because anyone can do it and there's inevitably a lot of competition.

The main issue that was brought up in this episode is that substantially those who have gained special teachings and those who have developed new crafting recipes are growing disproportionately rich compared to the rest. Moreover the Honesty leader is suggesting that the major guilds are establishing monopolies which would of course prevent smaller groups to compete.

It's not just the leechers that are poor but even hunters and merchants that work as much as everyone else, and some of them are driven into the leechers pool because they get fed up of working their ass off to gain spare money.

Monopolisation of hunting spots is one of major reasons for Shiroe establishing RT, and it appearently isn't issue now, not to mention Honesty one of three major raid guilds that is shown as example of leacher plagued group hardly has such problem as lack of hunting spots