Mahouka LN - Reminiscence Chapter (Volume 8) Discussion / Poll

[Kairin]

Welcome to the discussion thread for Mahouka, Reminiscence Chapter (Volume 8).

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[bietchie11]

Best arc ever!!!
Along with the first 9-school!!!

[Lucarion]

Made this yesterday. ^_^


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDXdLAqRKy4

[ftxnexus]

Spoiler for Question about Tatsuya never betraying Yotsuba family:

Okey. As we know Tatsuya is very loyal toward Miyuki and opposite and Miyuki is loyal toward the Yotsuba Family. Why is their Aunt afraid of Tatsuya betraying them? Isnt the reason that Tatsuya want to betray them too free Miyuki from the head position? So by freeing Miyuki from head position wont that remove the cause which may make Tatsuya go against them?

[Ultragunner]

^

Spoiler for such mystery:

even now we don't know what will really happen. "Betray" is a word that heavily depends on the context, especially when it came form a Yotsuba. What I think we should take from Maya is that she's afraid one day Tatsuya will be ready to...not give a sh!t about the Yotsuba, and they won't have any influence on him.

[Zoks]

Originally Posted by Rasen

Well, that's one interpretation, but the preceding paragraph says:




The preceding lines are all talking about Tatsuya losing his emotions, and Miyuki asking their mother if she did it intentionally, to which she answers no. I think there's room for interpretation, but since their mother is trying to convince Miyuki she isn't a monster, I'm going to say she was trying to say it was accidental. She could be lying, but still.....

What's accidental isn't Tatsuya being left with that particular emotion. What's accidental is he only had room for one left after they created the Artificial Magic Operation Area. When Miyuki asks if she intentionally chose that to happen, she was asking if during the planning stages of the operation they intended for Tatsuya to be loyal exclusively to Miyuki. Miya is saying she didn't intend for him to lose all of his emotions, but the fact he did and the way she rationalizes that it was better for Tatsuya to love Miyuki than her implies she chose for him to keep that emotion. It is completely illogical to assume that was by dumb luck, because there are other emotions that could have been left in Tatsuya that could have him turn on them, like a thirst for vengeance.

Originally Posted by fujin of shadows

The operation did not go as plan, and there was a giant if in the statement.

From the whole conversation between Miyuki and Miya alone, from the statement above, I think Miya was just commenting of how convenient it was for Tatsuya to have that single emotion

You have to explain what you mean by IF. But I'm pretty certain my rebuttal to that claim is covered in what I just responded to Rasen.

[Ultragunner]

well my take on this one is that Miya was aware that Tatsuya's mental state could be heavily affected by the experiment, she even had anticipated that some if his emotions could be lost forever, yet she still carried out the operation. What unfortunate was that Tatsuya lost all of his (strong) emotion and impulse, saved for 1 slot and thus Miya left the love for his sister intact for Tatsuya. Yeah, pretty much all the things you mentioned

[Echizen777]

I think that Maya talk was just to show the readers how dangerous Tatsuya is. He has absolutely no reason to betray the clan.

Miya didn't plan for him to lose his emotions but she purposedly choose to leave him with super brotherly feelings. It's even better explained in vol 4. Without this he would have never cared for her to that extent.

[IceHism]

I don't think she chose To leave him with those emotions, it was just a favorable outcome that happened coincidently.

[SoboSobo]

Originally Posted by IceHism

I don't think she chose To leave him with those emotions, it was just a favorable outcome that happened coincidently.

i agree, i think in his subconscious mind he was clinging to those feeling.

[Zoks]

Originally Posted by IceHism

I don't think she chose To leave him with those emotions, it was just a favorable outcome that happened coincidently.

Originally Posted by SoboSobo

i agree, i think in his subconscious mind he was clinging to those feeling.

I think this is wishful thinking on both of your parts considering there is nothing that suggests so in any of the volumes. There is no case to make that he chose that himself because that would imply Miya had no control over which emotions he lost, exposing the Yotsuba to a dangerous threat since there would be nothing to keep him loyal. The evidence points to Miya leaving him that emotion to keep him loyal Miyuki and the Yotsuba by extension. And to think people call pampz delusional for his support of Erika.

[IceHism]

Originally Posted by Zoks

I think this is wishful thinking on both of your parts considering there is nothing that suggests so in any of the volumes. There is no case to make that he chose that himself because that would imply Miya had no control over which emotions he lost, exposing the Yotsuba to a dangerous threat since there would be nothing to keep him loyal. The evidence points to Miya leaving him that emotion to keep him loyal Miyuki and the Yotsuba by extension. And to think people call pampz delusional for his support of Erika.

You seem to not understand that if they removed all of Tatsuya's emotions, which i actually believe was what the clan intended, Tatsuya would always be loyal because he would have no desires. He already has no hatred or desire for any revenge. Here's the text that makes this theory plausible: IF. This means that Miya did not know to what full extent that her magic could do in restructuring Tatsuya's mind. All she knows is that it is possible for her to destroy emotions as that is exactly what happened to Maya and even Genzou acknowledged that. In Maya's case, all her memories had their emotions removed from them. How could Miya know that any emotion could be left in the person in those memories? She did not. It is possible that she started to abuse her magic because she wanted to find a remedy for the monstrous action that she had just committed and eventually, she gave up when her health started to rapidly deteriorate and she had found no remedy.

And the evidence is all in volume 8. She was justifying her actions to Miyuki when she said that she thought it would be favorable for him to love her IF it was possible to leave an emotion. Because, beneath all that facade, Miya loved her children including Tatsuya. You're even shown that the person most connected to Miya: Honami had regretted her whole life but had accepted her position in the family just as how Miya had. I don't think this is a coincidence.

There is absolutely no conclusive proof that Miya had control over what emotion to not erase. The sentence you quoted could be interpreted in many different ways. It is the paragraph before which made me lean towards this theory where it stated

"Did Okaa-sama……intentionally choose for this to happen?"
Even though I was speaking myself, it felt like I heard someone else talking. It felt like a me which was not me was moving my body and asking questions.
"I obviously didn’t plan things out to that extent. However, I did think that IF the capacity that was left was only enough for one emotion, then it should be affection directed towards you. Tatsuya will be spending far more time with you, after all."
"Did you say that to O— No, that person?"
"Of course I explained. That child still has plenty of common sense. Having no parental affection is trivial in any case, so there’s no need to worry about it."
When she said that,
Faintly, I felt I could glimpse Okaa-sama’s suffering that she could not love her child.

How i interpret this? The 1st bolded sentence is her justification that she isn't a monster as it completely relates to Miya's Suffering. That she emotionally suffered by having to do that operation on Tatsuya in the first place. This is no wishful thinking, it is a plausible explanation as i have connected everything to text directly stated in the book. I'm not saying that you're wrong either. I'm saying what i think. Either way, the story isn't over and there's a lot more to know so we're a bit too early to be calling people delusional, even someone like pampz.

[Zoks]

Originally Posted by IceHism

You seem to not understand that if they removed all of Tatsuya's emotions, which i actually believe was what the clan intended, Tatsuya would always be loyal because he would have no desires. He already has no hatred or desire for any revenge. Here's the text that makes this theory plausible: IF. This means that Miya did not know to what full extent that her magic could do in restructuring Tatsuya's mind. All she knows is that it is possible for her to destroy emotions as that is exactly what happened to Maya and even Genzou acknowledged that. In Maya's case, all her memories had their emotions removed from them. How could Miya know that any emotion could be left in the person in those memories? She did not.

And the evidence is all in volume 8. She was justifying her actions to Miyuki when she said that she thought it would be favorable for him to love her. Because, beneath all that facade, Miya loved her children including Tatsuya. You're even shown that the person most connected to Miya: Honami had regretted her whole life but had accepted her position in the family just as how Miya had. I don't think this is a coincidence.

There is absolutely no conclusive proof that Miya had control over what emotion to not erase. The sentence you quoted could be interpreted in many different ways. It is the paragraph before which made me lean towards this theory where it stated


How i interpret this? The 1st bolded sentence is her justification that she isn't a monster as it completely relates to Miya's Suffering. That she emotionally suffered by having to do that operation on Tatsuya in the first place. This is no wishful thinking, it is a plausible explanation. I'm not saying that you're wrong either. i'm saying what i think.

Why would Tatsuya follow orders without any emotions? They can't make him obey through fear tactics, and they'd have nothing to use to motivate him. Sure, he might follow orders out of convenience for a while, but he'd back stab them in a heartbeat if the result would be more beneficial to him. And what Miya did to Maya and what she did to Tatsuya are two completely different things. She did not take away Maya's capacity to feel emotions, only all of the emotions tied to her memories up to that point of her life. You cannot make assumptions on what she can or cannot do to Tatsuya during that surgery based off of that.

Also, She isn't trying to justify anything. She's trying to tell Miyuki to not worry on her behalf because her son does not love her. You have to apply Occam's razor. The most obvious explanation is she left Tatsuya that emotion on purpose because he and Miyuki will be together the longest, and it would tie him to the family. Assuming that which emotion he had left was completely out of her control when the statement on the paper shows that particular emotion is what she wanted him to keep if she had only one option is illogical. It makes sense to you because you like the idea of Tatsuya choosing to hold on to his love to Miyuki. But we already know from Miyuki's perspective they were never close as children. So why would he pick that emotion instead of say hatred for the Yotsuba, since even now we know he begrudges them for what they did to him?

[IceHism]

Originally Posted by Zoks

Why would Tatsuya follow orders without any emotions? They can't make him obey through fear tactics, and they'd have nothing to use to motivate him. Sure, he might follow orders out of convenience for a while, but he'd back stab them in a heartbeat if the result would be more beneficial to him. And what Miya did to Maya and what she did to Tatsuya are two completely different things. She did not take away Maya's capacity to feel emotions, only all of the emotions tied to her memories up to that point of her life. You cannot make assumptions on what she can or cannot do to Tatsuya during that surgery based off of that.

Also, She isn't trying to justify anything. She's trying to tell Miyuki to not worry on her behalf because her son does not love her. You have to apply Occam's razor. The most obvious explanation is she left Tatsuya that emotion on purpose because he and Miyuki will be together the longest, and it would tie him to the family. Assuming that which emotion he had left was completely out of her control when the statement on the paper shows that particular emotion is what she wanted him to keep if she had only one option is illogical. It makes sense to you because you like the idea of Tatsuya choosing to hold on to his love to Miyuki. But we already know from Miyuki's perspective they were never close as children. So why would he pick that emotion instead of say hatred for the Yotsuba, since even now we know he begrudges them for what they did to him?

Why wouldn't he follow order without emotions? All his current desires come from him wanting to make a better life for Miyuki. You seem to think he has some benefit from betraying the Yotsuba as of this moment when the book has been telling the reader the complete opposite for 12 volumes straight. I'm so tired of everyone wanting Tatsuya to destroy the whole world cause forced drama. Also, you would know that the incident in 2062 has absolutely no relation to tatsuya's experiment because???? oh wait, that's not stated in the book to support your theory or mines. Therefore both could be right.

What..... There is no mention about worrying on Miya's behalf at all. Miyuki just wanted to know whether Miya planned for all this to happen and she says that she hadn't. Her "IF" statement is a justification because "if" implies uncertainty, therefore Miya is not completely sure. There is no reason stated as to why Miya is unsure so there is only speculation on that.

You can apply occam's razor all you want, with no text that counters against what either you or I are saying, then both theory are still plausible. Occam's razor isn't even about finding the right and accurate theory. It's saying that a simple assumption has as much chance as being true as a complex explanation. I do not deny your explanation so i'm not sure why you're so intent on proving me wrong without direct text from the book to counteract my theory.

Also, Miyuki can't even remember anything before Tatsuya became her guardian. It's already been hinted that all those memories have been tampered with.

Also, i don't care about the idea that Tatsuya kept his emotion for Miyuki. I don't even know how this ad hominem attack has to do with anything. If you're saying this, i can also make the argument that you only like the idea of Miya keeping this emotion in Tatsuya cause you feel that Tatsuya and Miyuki should be separated because you feel that Tatsuya's feeling is forced and artificial so he has got to break out of "these evil chains".

[Echizen777]

I agree that she left that emotion on purpose to tie him with the clan. And Tatsuya had never been that emotionless before his operation. The plan was to give him a MCA, she didn't plan for him to lose his emotions and thus decided him to make him love Miyuki. Before this operation Miyuki was just a beautiful girl in his eyes, they never interracted normally but she directed his emotions for her in the direction they are now.

[Zoks]

Originally Posted by IceHism

Why wouldn't he follow order without emotions? All his current desires come from him wanting to make a better life for Miyuki. You seem to think he has some benefit from betraying the Yotsuba as of this moment when the book has been telling the reader the complete opposite for 12 volumes straight. I'm so tired of everyone wanting Tatsuya to destroy the whole world cause forced drama. Also, you would know that the incident in 2062 has absolutely no relation to tatsuya's experiment because???? oh wait, that's not stated in the book to support your theory or mines. Therefore both could be right.

What..... There is no mention about worrying on Miya's behalf at all. Miyuki just wanted to know whether Miya planned for all this to happen and she says that she hadn't. Her "IF" statement is a justification because "if" implies uncertainty, therefore Miya is not completely sure. There is no reason stated as to why Miya is unsure so there is only speculation on that.

You can apply occam's razor all you want, with no text that counters against what either you or I are saying, then both theory are still plausible. Occam's razor isn't even about finding the right and accurate theory. It's saying that a simple assumption has as much chance as being true as a complex explanation. I do not deny your explanation so i'm not sure why you're so intent on proving me wrong without direct text from the book to counteract my theory.

Also, Miyuki can't even remember anything before Tatsuya became her guardian. It's already been hinted that all those memories have been tampered with.

Also, i don't care about the idea that Tatsuya kept his emotion for Miyuki. I don't even know how this ad hominem attack has to do with anything. If you're saying this, i can also make the argument that you only like the idea of Miya keeping this emotion in Tatsuya cause you feel that Tatsuya and Miyuki should be separated because you feel that Tatsuya's feeling is forced and artificial so he has got to break out of "these evil chains".

I already explained to you why he wouldn't follow orders without emotions. There is nothing to compel him to follow orders. Do not forget, what Miya took from him were his impulsive emotions, not all of them. Since he has no capability to even be loyal towards the Yotsuba, he becomes an obvious threat to them. And there is an obvious benefit for him to betray the Yotsuba. He won't have to do their bidding anymore. You are ignoring what Maya said in Volume 8 when she tells Hayama that Tatsuya would betray the Yotsuba at any moment if he feels compelled to.

I don't think Tatsuya would destroy the world with no emotions. Rather, he wouldn't bother do anything. It's the state he's in now that could likely lead to him blowing everything up, if something bad happened to Miyuki.

I dismissed your comments on the 2062 incident because you were the one trying to use it as evidence. You didn't even use it correctly, as you were under the impression she took Maya's emotions away, and not the emotions tied to the experiences. Don't expect to present evidence without solid reasoning behind it and not expect people to shoot holes in it. Your reasoning is based on what is not said and what could be. In that case, we could assume that this is all an illusion in Maya's head while she is still being tortured by the Dahan. We have no evidence against this in the text, so therefore it's just as possible as anything else we mention!

Tell me, where is it hinted that Miyuki's memories were tampered with? Without any hints of that, the more likely explanation is that they were simply kept separate growing up.

As for the claim I attributed on you of him purposefully keeping his emotions, I apologize, that was a somebody else's claim and I wasn't paying attention to who made what claim. My beef isn't that I want their evil chain broken, but for people to actually acknowledge that the entire situation with Tatsuya and Miyuki is messed up, not some "love overcomes everything" idea some people have. If people want to take Lucarion's stance on it, more power to them.

[SoboSobo]

Originally Posted by Echizen777

I agree that she left that emotion on purpose to tie him with the clan. And Tatsuya had never been that emotionless before his operation. The plan was to give him a MCA, she didn't plan for him to lose his emotions and thus decided him to make him love Miyuki. Before this operation Miyuki was just a beautiful girl in his eyes, they never interracted normally but she directed his emotions for her in the direction they are now.

Its debatable if miya left that emotion to tie him to the clan, it seems he tied him more to miyuki.
Personally i think miya didn`t planed for his emotions to be "removed" that's why the the big IF in the statement, but when she realized what had happened he saved those emotions that were related to miyuki maybe because he was his sister or maybe because she feared what he will do to the clan who knows.
The plan probably was to tie tatsuya to miyuki by those emotions and miyuki to be a loyal member of the clan, but in 2092 the whole okinawa incident happened and miyuki became very dependent on tatsuya's and we can even say "in love with him" and her priorities shifted towards him and his well being rather the clan.
And now because of that tatsuya loyalty is very dependent to what miyuki wants, he is now neutral to the clan because miyuki cooperates with the yotsuba to achieve her goals and as long as that exists tatsuya won't lift a finger against the yotsuba.
Hence why maya is doing everything to ensure miyuki will be the next head of the clan, because without that miyuki will have no reason to cooperate with them and neither is tatsuya.

Originally Posted by Zoks

I already explained to you why he wouldn't follow orders without emotions. There is nothing to compel him to follow orders. Do not forget, what Miya took from him were his impulsive emotions, not all of them. Since he has no capability to even be loyal towards the Yotsuba, he becomes an obvious threat to them. And there is an obvious benefit for him to betray the Yotsuba. He won't have to do their bidding anymore. You are ignoring what Maya said in Volume 8 when she tells Hayama that Tatsuya would betray the Yotsuba at any moment if he feels compelled to.

Let not split the hair here. He actually does have emotions but they lack intensity is not like he is devoid of any emotions. He still has emotions enough to form friendships but nothing beyond that, we saw him getting angry, frustrated, amazed, flustered but only to a certain point.
He even told honoka that he can like her or care about her but only as a friend.
As i said above he tolerates the yotsuba because of miyukis involvement with them, and as long as she is cooperating with them so will he.

[IceHism]

Originally Posted by Zoks

I already explained to you why he wouldn't follow orders without emotions. There is nothing to compel him to follow orders. Do not forget, what Miya took from him were his impulsive emotions, not all of them. Since he has no capability to even be loyal towards the Yotsuba, he becomes an obvious threat to them. And there is an obvious benefit for him to betray the Yotsuba. He won't have to do their bidding anymore. You are ignoring what Maya said in Volume 8 when she tells Hayama that Tatsuya would betray the Yotsuba at any moment if he feels compelled to.

I don't think Tatsuya would destroy the world with no emotions. Rather, he wouldn't bother do anything. It's the state he's in now that could likely lead to him blowing everything up, if something bad happened to Miyuki.

I dismissed your comments on the 2062 incident because you were the one trying to use it as evidence. You didn't even use it correctly, as you were under the impression she took Maya's emotions away, and not the emotions tied to the experiences. Don't expect to present evidence without solid reasoning behind it and not expect people to shoot holes in it. Your reasoning is based on what is not said and what could be. In that case, we could assume that this is all an illusion in Maya's head while she is still being tortured by the Dahan. We have no evidence against this in the text, so therefore it's just as possible as anything else we mention!

Tell me, where is it hinted that Miyuki's memories were tampered with? Without any hints of that, the more likely explanation is that they were simply kept separate growing up.

As for the claim I attributed on you of him purposefully keeping his emotions, I apologize, that was a somebody else's claim and I wasn't paying attention to who made what claim. My beef isn't that I want their evil chain broken, but for people to actually acknowledge that the entire situation with Tatsuya and Miyuki is messed up, not some "love overcomes everything" idea some people have. If people want to take Lucarion's stance on it, more power to them.

You can't use Maya's dialogue to Hayama because that is a world where Tatsuya is attached to Miyuki. I don't believe that you need emotions to follow orders and I'm not seeing a reason why Tatsuya would want his freedom when he has no emotions. If you are saying that Tatsuya has a higher chance to blow up his clan with his emotions to Miyuki, then I agree with you. I still think the chance is low after all is said and done.

I just read my quote and I stated that Maya had her emotions removed from her memories. Not her emotions alone.

Except Maya's dream theory can't be interpreted from the text in any way possible unlike the theories that you or I are saying

It is hinted at when Miyuki is at the party and tries to remember something

That is the position granted to Ani. I must become the heir of Maya Obaa-sama, therefore Ani is not my Onii-sama—

I stiffened due to a pain in the core of my brain.

For an instant, I felt as if I had no idea where I was.

Of course that was an illusion. I am at Kuroba Oji-sama’s party that I was invited to; in front of me, Oji-sama is making a discomfited face.

……Somehow I feel like I was thinking about something really important, however….that’s probably just my imagination.

Hmmm............................... Are you going to tell me that is a very natural thing to do for a 12 year old?

I knew Mahouka would be a dark, twisted, and messed up story since volume 3 and never expected the series to end happily to begin with so I share Lucarion's opinion

[Zoks]

You know what? It just occurred to me that I am going about this argument entirely by the wrong way. Why am I limiting myself to one chapter of one volume when there's other evidence for my theory? I give you Volume 3, chapter 2.

The only "emotion" they left for him was intentionally left behind to bind him to the Yotsuba Family with a chain forged of duty.

[Lisker]

Originally Posted by SoboSobo

Let not split the hair here. He actually does have emotions but they lack intensity is not like he is devoid of any emotions. He still has emotions enough to form friendships but nothing beyond that, we saw him getting angry, frustrated, amazed, flustered but only to a certain point.
He even told honoka that he can like her or care about her but only as a friend.
As i said above he tolerates the yotsuba because of miyukis involvement with them, and as long as she is cooperating with them so will he.

Totally true. He has emotions, but the emotions he does have, he doesn't often show on his face. I thought that is what

My way of viewing the Yotsuba is that of a family torn apart. (I'll spoiler them for an easier read)

Spoiler for Miyuki:

Miyuki, hates her family for treating Tetsuya the way they do. She hates them for what they did to him and how she is the chain that ties Tetsuya to the Yotsuba family.

Spoiler for Tatsuya:

Tatsuya doesn't just tolorate the Yotsuba but he (ab)uses them for his own purposes on more than one occasion. Not to mention that just the name Yotsuba carries a lot of value, and fear in the world.

Spoiler for Maya:

Maya, is the really tragic person in the family. Kidnapped by china, was raped on more than one occasion and experimented on leaving her unable to have children.
I think in a way, for Maya, what she did to Tetsuya was also a form of "revenge" towards her sister for what she did to her horrible experiences in china. She changed them into nothing but information, removing the emotions I believe. After that she felt like her sister had "killed" her.


The Thing is, I really can not hate Maya after reading that chapter. The things she was put through

The way the Yotsuba's came very close to being whiped out in their lust for revenge only shows that in the end, they do care for eachother as a family.