Tate no Yuusha/Shield Hero - Episode 17 Discussion / Poll

[Wandering Soul]

If I were Naofumi, I'd asked to get drop near Ren as so far he has proven himself to be the most reasonable out of the other three heroes.

[Chosen_Hero]

Fitotrias' plan to summon new heroes sucks ass and is destined to fail. As long as the general public (mostly the Kingdom of Melromarc) and every non demi has a bias against the shield hero (something that isn't easy to chamlnge in people) the same problem will keep popping up no matter how many times you keep summoning heroes. That's without mentioning the kind of people the heroes are and the kind of personality they have, which for all they know will just clash with each other to the point of in fighting.

Is she hoping that somehow the new heroes will just work together with no problems at all? Does she not know that power and status corrupts people and telling someone they are some sort of super special entity in that world will corrupt them? It only takes ONE person in the group with delusions of grandeur to fuck shit up for everyone.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero

Fitotrias' plan to summon new heroes sucks ass and is destined to fail. As long as the general public (mostly the Kingdom of Melromarc) and every non demi has a bias against the shield hero (something that isn't easy to chamlnge in people) the same problem will keep popping up no matter how many times you keep summoning heroes. That's without mentioning the kind of people the heroes are and the kind of personality they have, which for all they know will just clash with each other to the point of in fighting.

Is she hoping that somehow the new heroes will just work together with no problems at all? Does she not know that power and status corrupts people and telling someone they are some sort of super special entity in that world will corrupt them? It only takes ONE person in the group with delusions of grandeur to fuck shit up for everyone.

Not necessarily. The current batch is really quite poor, as others have noted previously. They refuse to cooperate with each other, not just with the Shield but with any of the others. Each is convinced that he's the sole hero in the story and the others need to learn to listen and cooperate with him instead of doing their own useless thing. If they were more cooperative and willing to stop and think about things, investigate before passing judgment, Naofumi's guilt could have been disproven or brought to doubt very quickly and at the least all four would be standing against the people that hated him instead of siding with them in ostracizing him. Four people whom the nobility hates but who stand together to protect the people would be far more effective than four people who can't cooperate, of whom three have decided to specifically ostracize one and dismiss him as useless.

[The Green One]

There's also the fact that the new heroes will also all be level 1 and have no idea what they're doing.

Would they even have any room to grow in time with us already several waves in and not near the beginning like Nafoumi's group? Don't know if there'd be enough time to level up enough to catch the difficulty curve.

[BWTraveller]

Well from what Fitoria says they're already leveling far more slowly than they should, in which case a new batch could likely overtake their growth rate pretty quickly.

[Twi]

Makes sense. If they haven't been fighting the waves over the continent because they've only been on this particular piece, they've been missing a crapton of EXP and materials and so on for the last few months. Bringing in new ones and having her basically carrying them when they show up means they'll basically be stronger than these four in short order. Think the Blue Mage from FFXIV, high exp growth means you basically let the Level Capped party member do all the work while they ride the wave.

Teaching them how to fight can come afterwards.

[maximilianjenus]

What I think is that the weapons are complementary in a real right (not training); bow for long distance, spear for mid distance, shield for defense and sword for meele/protecting the other that get close to bow.

But the fact that they have parties and that they thing this is a game is ruining what should be simple military/combat strategy. It reminds of a person asking how screwed you were if the us army attacked you with a tank , most people compared the tank vs the group of terrorists, until a real soldier pointed out that the us army is not going to send a whole tank, the tanks is gong to ahve a crew, accompaniying infantry a mechanic, etc... (the answer was very screwed).

We also have to assume that the sacred weapons (shield, sword, bow, spear) are much stronger than this world's weapons or that the summoned people get bonuses from being summoned so a new set of guys might get better bonuses; worse case i't's just the weapons, but just by making them colaborate better on the real fights it shoudl be an improvement.

wow, I almost complained about skipped stuff, but in raftalia's early episodes we were alreayd told a way to ahve underpowered new heroes can level up fast (and this si the forum were the guy was doing the level up math); simply have them "enslave" higher level party member and have them grind so they get the experience points without really fighting.

Fitoria's plan is pretty solid if the heroes keep on acting dumb.

[Frontier]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Well from what Fitoria says they're already leveling far more slowly than they should, in which case a new batch could likely overtake their growth rate pretty quickly.

I wonder if the Heroes get buffs or some kind of benefit when they're summoned to where they're supposed to be.

Like, is there a specific kingdom that has "dibs" on or an affinity for the Sword Hero? Or do the Kingdoms barter over who gets which Hero?

Obviously Melromarc seems anti-Shield Hero, and they didn't even want to summon him, so maybe there was another place Naofumi should've, ideally if things went as they normally should, popped up in?

Actually kind of ironic that the Heroes who were all summoned together in the same place apparently have a worse track record for teamwork and fighting the Waves compared to the ones who were summoned to different kingdoms/continents entirely.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Frontier

I wonder if the Heroes get buffs or some kind of benefit when they're summoned to where they're supposed to be.

Like, is there a specific kingdom that has "dibs" on or an affinity for the Sword Hero? Or do the Kingdoms barter over who gets which Hero?

Obviously Melromarc seems anti-Shield Hero, and they didn't even want to summon him, so maybe there was another place Naofumi should've, ideally if things went as they normally should, popped up in?

Actually kind of ironic that the Heroes who were all summoned together in the same place apparently have a worse track record for teamwork and fighting the Waves compared to the ones who were summoned to different kingdoms/continents entirely.

If they belong to certain locations Naofumi would likely belong into the Demihuman Kingdom, as the Shield hero seems to be revered there.
And of course they have a bad track record of working together in Melmorac.

First of all, Malty did a good job of painting the Shield hero as a demon.

Next due to all Heroes being summoned into the same place, it HAS TO affect the money they get for completing a wave from the host country. Melmorac has all 4 heroes, so the max fund is probably getting split into 4 and then redivided according to usefulness.
Next up is Malty making sure the spear hero gets favored in every way possible, making it hard for anyone to like him too much.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Frontier

Past Heroes chose saving The People over saving The World? Is that why the Wave's are still happening? I thought that connected with the Shield Hero supporting the Demi-Humans, but it seems like something all the Heroes have done in the past. Probably because sacrificing a bunch of lives for the greater good isn't something people can easily do .

Maybe I misinterpreted what Fitoria said, but I think she was saying that past heroes wished they had chosen the people instead of the world. Like, they made a choice to save the world, but regretted it because of the lives lost. But she suggested that choosing to save the world is a more obvious/straightforward path than choosing to save the people.

You can sort of see this play out so far -- while the other heroes have been focusing on clearing the waves and not worrying about the consequences ("saving the world"), Naofumi and his party focused instead on protecting the people (and had to clean up the messes of the other parties who didn't think about that).

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Next due to all Heroes being summoned into the same place, it HAS TO affect the money they get for completing a wave from the host country. Melmorac has all 4 heroes, so the max fund is probably getting split into 4 and then redivided according to usefulness.
Next up is Malty making sure the spear hero gets favored in every way possible, making it hard for anyone to like him too much.

The other point here is that each other region of the world probably has its own champions that could fight alongside the heroes and so increase the hero's overall fighting power. Presumably it could also broaden the talent trees as well, since each region probably has its own defining characteristics. In this case, all of Melomarc's talent got divided between three of the heroes, and they're all leveling in the same general quadrant, so they're not maximizing their potential. Everyone having different "starter cities" would probably have put each of the heroes at a marked advantage. (For instance, if the shield hero had been summoned in the land of the demi-humans, he'd have a lot of people jumping at the chance to fight at his side, since he has a good reputation with that group.)

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Mein really isn't messing around. And she clearly has some strong allies; I don't think she has enough power to launch an attack like we saw.

And sadly, with that sort of attack it's pretty set that the Hero Naofumi's going to be dropped near is Motoyasu the Fool.

My bigger worry here is that he's going to show up near the other two heroes and then be framed for somehow causing the explosion (since he's now been spun as an enemy). On the one hand, I prefer they don't go this route because it's retreading old ground, but maybe this time after Fitoria's push, he'd try harder to clear his name. I would like the story to get out of this "rut" so I'm hopeful this latest chain of events is the catalyst to doing so.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Maybe I misinterpreted what Fitoria said, but I think she was saying that past heroes wished they had chosen the people instead of the world. Like, they made a choice to save the world, but regretted it because of the lives lost. But she suggested that choosing to save the world is a more obvious/straightforward path than choosing to save the people.

You can sort of see this play out so far -- while the other heroes have been focusing on clearing the waves and not worrying about the consequences ("saving the world"), Naofumi and his party focused instead on protecting the people (and had to clean up the messes of the other parties who didn't think about that).

I understood that the previous heroes chose the people too, which is why the waves are still happening. Choosing the world would stop the waves but all humans would die. Choosing the people unable humans to survive but the waves keep putting the world in danger.

[Arya]

Originally Posted by Kanon

I understood that the previous heroes chose the people too, which is why the waves are still happening. Choosing the world would stop the waves but all humans would die. Choosing the people unable humans to survive but the waves keep putting the world in danger.

Same here, it felt like the Queen warned Naofumi about it, they will have to choose between world and people, that are not the same. That's the distinction she wanted to underline to Naofumi. Distinction particularly on point given Naofumi's character.
The implication seemed obvious that choosing one means the perish of the other, in part of the whole of it. So it makes sense that saving the people means putting the world in danger again. Which is the logic behind it it's yet to be seen.

I'd go further saying I felt like Fitoria kinda regretted the obvious choice (people) made back then and most probably in the near future. Feelings that would be in character for someone lived for so long. Also with someone ready to kill all the heroes "there and now" if the MC didn't have innate MC charming shield.

Speaking about a second round of heroes, mmm, isn't too late? The waves are already too powerful now for a new hero to be a hero. They already are even for the current heroes.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Kanon

I understood that the previous heroes chose the people too, which is why the waves are still happening. Choosing the world would stop the waves but all humans would die. Choosing the people unable humans to survive but the waves keep putting the world in danger.

She didn't say that choosing the world would mean all people would die, necessarily, but that many lives would be lost.

That said, I understand now the ambiguity in the line.

過去の勇者は人々を救う道を選んで欲しいと願っていた。

Basically it's like "the wish of the past heroes was: choose the path to save the people."

But I think I get what you guys are saying (hopefully based on speculation not knowledge... ). Basically, past heroes chose the people, which would mean that there would need to be future heroes, continuing the cycle. They expected that future heroes would continue to choose to save the people indefinitely, since maybe the alternative was unimaginable to them. But Fitoria, having lived through so many endless cycles of this now, is thinking that maybe they've been making the wrong choice, and saving the world (and ending the cycle) is the better move. In other words, to get off this endless "thorny road" they've been on forever. It would indeed fit her status of someone who's lived for so long and is tired of it all. (Which, along appointing her successor, is a major death flag...)

Of course, all this is leading to the possibility that there might actually be a third path somehow -- something the other heroes never considered because they were so focused on whatever decision they made without having lived through the consequences over many cycles. And considering the Melomarc's corruption at this point, perhaps a different path is needed this time.

[maximilianjenus]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

But I think I get what you guys are saying (hopefully based on speculation not knowledge... ).

It's speculation; wont' say why.

I am reading some really nice theories there regarding those themes.

[Arya]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

She didn't say that choosing the world would mean all people would die, necessarily, but that many lives would be lost.

That said, I understand now the ambiguity in the line.

過去の勇者は人々を救う道を選んで欲しいと願っていた。

Basically it's like "the wish of the past heroes was: choose the path to save the people."

But I think I get what you guys are saying (hopefully based on speculation not knowledge... ). Basically, past heroes chose the people, which would mean that there would need to be future heroes, continuing the cycle. They expected that future heroes would continue to choose to save the people indefinitely, since maybe the alternative was unimaginable to them. But Fitoria, having lived through so many endless cycles of this now, is thinking that maybe they've been making the wrong choice, and saving the world (and ending the cycle) is the better move. In other words, to get off this endless "thorny road" they've been on forever. It would indeed fit her status of someone who's lived for so long and is tired of it all. (Which, along appointing her successor, is a major death flag...)

Of course, all this is leading to the possibility that there might actually be a third path somehow -- something the other heroes never considered because they were so focused on whatever decision they made without having lived through the consequences over many cycles. And considering the Melomarc's corruption at this point, perhaps a different path is needed this time.

I barely know the names of the characters, that's my knowledge ... mine are just speculations based on the episode, the context and of course the characters.
My take on it is more Fitoria related than the heroes. Given the distinction she made to Naofumi I think since back then she witnessed first hand the (I suppose) great struggle heroes had when faced with this choice, this time she told him in advance for various reasons.

First surely to help him being ready when the time will come, but also because it's her who is expecting Naofumi will choose People over the World. I mean, I'm going for the obvious here, for anime standards, the right path is choose People and naofumi so far has never contradicted any of these standards and I don't see him doing it in the near future. Fitoria knows that much. So she knows what Naofumi will do (pats don't lie!) So telling him about the issue so much in advance seems a way to give him all the due to make the right choice, but which is the right choice for her? She thinks that if someone is asked point-blank to choose between people and the world the natural answer would be the former. So Fitoria is giving time to Naofumi to be able to elaborate. In the hidden, not so hidden, personal hope he will go for the World.

Of course, as you are, I'm expecting him to chose the third path to save everything. And considering the character, the price to accomplish it seems quite obvious, Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return after all. Not sure if it's equivalent though. And also too easy as a price. mmm, so probably it is not equivalent.

[orion]

If they knew what started all of this, it may lead to finding that 3rd alternative.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by orion

If they knew what started all of this, it may lead to finding that 3rd alternative.

Yeah, I suspect the main issue here is because, for the three other heroes, it all plays out exactly like video games from their reality, so they can't help but thinking of the whole thing like a game. Naofumi is the only one of the four who didn't have that background/experience.

That said, the fact that there are video games in the other realities that play out exactly like this is itself probably not a coincidence. The larger question is indeed: what is really going on with this world, and who is pulling the strings?