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artquest7@ · 2010-08-09, 22:47

So I just finished watching Double Zeta after taking a long break between the first 20 or so episodes and the rest of the show.
I tried to like this show very hard, there were some things I liked but over all it seemed a bit flat. Especially when compared to Tomino's other works.
A lot of cool things took place and it had a great build up to a rather odd, drawn out, and somewhat uninteresting ending. For me the problem is that there's little to no resolution for a lot of issues by the final episode.

So the war is over and despite it's end being kind of lame but we don't get much in the way of character development. It's never explained why Roux Louka decides to join Judau on the trip to jupiter and it's only hinted at that the reason Judau wants to leave is just because he's sick of the earth's government. The main reason Judau fights throughout the show is to get his sister back, then he loses her again right after he saves her and at the very end he sees his sister again and still leaves her to go to Jupiter?
I was just a bit confused because characters decisions ceased to make sense at this point. Especially when you add into the mix that Elle still clearly has feelings for Judau but it's Roux who's actually going with. Beecha wouldn't man up and tell Elle his feelings either. It all felt quite unresolved to me.

After awhile I got used to ZZ's goofy nature so I wasn't so put off by it after I got past the moon moon episodes. My main issue though was that I had just finished watching Zeta a few days before I started ZZ. I wasn't planning on watching ZZ but my love for good ol hand animation in blue ray quality suckered me into watching the first 5 episodes in a day. I was set up for a big let down by episode 2 of ZZ gundam (I believe episode 1 was just a huge recap.) Reason being, it seemed so epic. Days after the final battle of Zeta gundam a badly damaged Argama arrives at shangra-la with what's left of the crew and a childlike Kamille. Add in Yazan to the mix and naturally you expect something awesome to follow. I got pretty much the opposite of everything I expected.

I didn't really mind that the kids were goofy because that seemed to fit them perfectly. Kamille's character made sense that he was all emo and stuff since he was sheltered and had a lot of problems with his parents. These kids are used to not having anyone else, they've come to accept that they can only rely on themselves and a few close friends to get by. So naturally there's no reason for them to be sad all the time. They've accepted the cold hard facts of life and try to make the best of it. I liked that aspect of the show a lot and it was one of the few redeeming qualities of ZZ imho. I was however quite annoyed by other character's antics who should have been atleast 6x more competent to get where they ended up. (I'm looking at you mayshemere! or however u spell his name. Not to mention after showing up as a super bad ass at the end his death was very anticlimactic.)

Anyway thats my 2 cents about zz gundam. I think it had a lot of potential and there were alot of good things about it. Too bad it didn't reach it's full potential.
If sunrise would remake ZZ in a bit darker tone more in line with Zeta I'd watch it for sure.

RX-78GP04G Gerbera · 2010-08-09, 23:57

Well, it was BECAUSE of Zeta ALREADY being so dark (especially at the end) that ZZ took the more light-hearted route during the first half of the series before going back about halfway in the latter half, but not all the way in that a lot of the main cast dies and all, but only so the "good guys" (Judau and co.) would end up triumphing over the inner-conflicting "bad guys" (Haman and Glemy).

It would just feel a bit too depressing to see an even MORE innocent cast end up killed little by little throughout a series with a bunch of people on both sides at the end. (Kamille was still more-or-less "involved" with his parents working for the Federation already. Judau and co were simply adolescents trying to survive and live their lives however they could.)

DarkLordOfkichiku · 2010-08-10, 02:42

Certainly, the biggest flaw of Gundam ZZ is that Tomino attempted to make it comic - but comedy in large does isn't his forte and contrasts a bit too much with the otherwise rather serious (sometimes even grim) atmosphere of the UC. That's why the first half of the series feels rather painful to go through, whereas the later half takes on a more serious attitude even if doesn't quite become a Kill'Em All, becoming more enjoyable as a result...

All in all, not Tomino's best work, but not the worst that I've seen so far either

JC... · 2010-08-10, 03:37

I think the real problem is that ZZ had to live up to the expectations and most people didn't like the change in atmosphere. I also think that it was right to show the veterans from the argama being beaten by some kids and oranges. I also think that it turned into more of a 'kids cartoon' because It was more or less based around episodes and arcs with less violence. My favourite part was probably the colony drop.

RX-78GP04G Gerbera · 2010-08-10, 12:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkLordOfkichiku

Certainly, the biggest flaw of Gundam ZZ is that Tomino attempted to make it comic - but comedy in large does isn't his forte and contrasts a bit too much with the otherwise rather serious (sometimes even grim) atmosphere of the UC. That's why the first half of the series feels rather painful to go through, whereas the later half takes on a more serious attitude even if doesn't quite become a Kill'Em All, becoming more enjoyable as a result...

All in all, not Tomino's best work, but not the worst that I've seen so far either

The general grim atmosphere was probably because of bouts of depression, especially during Victory. After all, one's mood can really reflect in their work. Just being more light-hearted wasn't what hurt it, but how they went about it. Trying to force oneself to be happy doesn't really work well. Now if he were more like how he was with Turn A Gundam, then ZZ surely would've been much better with a good, even amount of decent comedy and darker battles and character development through each.

DarkLordOfkichiku · 2010-08-10, 14:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by RX-78GP04G Gerbera

The general grim atmosphere was probably because of bouts of depression, especially during Victory. After all, one's mood can really reflect in their work. Just being more light-hearted wasn't what hurt it, but how they went about it. Trying to force oneself to be happy doesn't really work well.

You're right, I guess. But, ah, considering that the series got a bit darker in the later half, he may just about have realized this himself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RX-78GP04G Gerbera

Now if he were more like how he was with Turn A Gundam, then ZZ surely would've been much better with a good, even amount of decent comedy and darker battles and character development through each.

Heh, can't comment there, alas. Turn A Gundam is one series I haven't seen yet, but it's next in the line after I've finished Gundam 00 S2 (just started with it).

RX-78GP04G Gerbera · 2010-08-10, 15:34

Yeah, Turn A Gundam (along with G Gundam and Gundam X) is the only alternate universe Gundam series that I really like. The others...ehh...not so much.

artquest7@ · 2010-08-10, 22:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkLordOfkichiku

You're right, I guess. But, ah, considering that the series got a bit darker in the later half, he may just about have realized this himself.

Heh, can't comment there, alas. Turn A Gundam is one series I haven't seen yet, but it's next in the line after I've finished Gundam 00 S2 (just started with it).

Turn A Gundam is imho the best gundam I've seen next to 0079 and Zeta. I Honestly can't single one of those 3 out as the "best" because to me it's like comparing apples, oranges and bananas.

Turn A is such a breathe of fresh air to me because it tried I think in some respects to do what ZZ did and actually succeeded. Turn A is light hearted overall but serious and dark when it needs to be. It has quite a bit of character development and it's comedy comes at appropriate times. Even though some characters are quite over the top, within context it totally makes sense. The people of moon moon in Zeta felt so out of place and I couldn't understand what was going on and why an entire colony would live like that. It didn't make any sense to me. In contrast, Turn A's over the top characters are technologically behind because most of the Earth's technology was destroyed (or buried) so people reverted back to living in some very interesting ways. So it made sense to me.

But... back to Double Zeta. I would have been okay if it wasn't as dark as Zeta. But to pull a 180 on the fanbase is a bit underhanded in my book. Especially since the goofy children would have provided a nice contrast to the dark scenes to keep it balanced. To me it seemed tipped in favor of goofiness and totally out of balance sometimes. But I do have to admit that as much as I hated the whole Glemy x Roux thing... there were 2 awesome events that came about because of it. Beecha and Mondo using Roux's core fighter as a shield to fight Glemy was just made of pure win. I laughed quite a bit from that one. The other awesome moment was when Roux Killed Glemy with Zeta's rifle. I think that's the first time I ever saw a character get vaporized while outside of a mobile suit by a beam weapon. That was just plain awesome.
I enjoyed that resolution more than the end of the Haman x Judau fight.

RX-78GP04G Gerbera · 2010-08-10, 23:47

You see more human-vaporizing (outside the cockpit) in Victory Gundam, lol.

JC... · 2010-08-11, 14:20

I'm glad I finished Zeta, my CCA DVD arrived today, after this I've pretty much seen all the UC series'. Not the ones that come after Unicorn though. Anything I should look out for that relates to ZZ?

Elo the Blue · 2010-08-11, 14:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by JC...

I think the real problem is that ZZ had to live up to the expectations and most people didn't like the change in atmosphere. I also think that it was right to show the veterans from the argama being beaten by some kids and oranges. I also think that it turned into more of a 'kids cartoon' because It was more or less based around episodes and arcs with less violence. My favourite part was probably the colony drop.

The colony drop was pretty epic. The OST that went along with the scenes really added to the drama.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JC...

I'm glad I finished Zeta, my CCA DVD arrived today, after this I've pretty much seen all the UC series'. Not the ones that come after Unicorn though. Anything I should look out for that relates to ZZ?

Spoiler for ZZ-Unicorn spoilers:

RX-78GP04G Gerbera · 2010-08-11, 16:14

Spoiler for spoiler:

Vsin · 2010-08-11, 18:14

If you ask me, the only part where the "kiddyness" went too far was making Yazan comic relief. I mean, the guy is absolutely brutal when he fights...and then suddenly he's the show's punching bag? An ace of the Titans reduced to getting comically beaten and then left behind? At least Bright never had to deal with straight up children before (his first batch was desperate to survive, and his second batch was...unruly but not silly). Also, I think Moon Moon did nothing more than introduce the twins. That's it.

Otherwise...I think by the time it gets to when Elpe shows up for the first time, the show definitely gets better. Or maybe it was when Judeau landed on the moon. Ugh, memory fail. I consider the first 12 episodes to be too childish, while the latter chunk is a very respectable series. They certainly threw in sillies after the first 12, but those were consistent with the characters and weren't completely out of place.

brightman · 2010-08-11, 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vsin

If you ask me, the only part where the "kiddyness" went too far was making Yazan comic relief. I mean, the guy is absolutely brutal when he fights...and then suddenly he's the show's punching bag? An ace of the Titans reduced to getting comically beaten and then left behind?

I never understand the whole thing that people have against Yazan turning into comic relief. Its standard villain decay. If anything it adds a few dimensions to Yazan's shallow character from Zeta, and provides some humiliation and payback for what he did in that show.

As for the show itself, the Earth arc was definitely the best part, and in fact returned the series more to its MSG roots, with smaller scale vignettes showing the effect wars have on regular people, more localized conflicts, and even racism and racial dominance (as in whites vs. blacks, not spacenoids vs earthnoids). Whereas Zeta tend to focus a bit too much on unrealistic politics, genocidal army commanders and Cyber Newtypes tragedies instead.

DarkLordOfkichiku · 2010-08-12, 15:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by artquest7@

Turn A Gundam is imho the best gundam I've seen next to 0079 and Zeta. I Honestly can't single one of those 3 out as the "best" because to me it's like comparing apples, oranges and bananas.

Hmm. I finished watching 00 earlier today and just watched the first episode of Turn A. So far I feel like I'm watching Future Boy Conan or Nadia the Secret of Blue Water instead of a gundam series

Quote:

Originally Posted by artquest7@

But... back to Double Zeta. I would have been okay if it wasn't as dark as Zeta. But to pull a 180 on the fanbase is a bit underhanded in my book. Especially since the goofy children would have provided a nice contrast to the dark scenes to keep it balanced. To me it seemed tipped in favor of goofiness and totally out of balance sometimes. But I do have to admit that as much as I hated the whole Glemy x Roux thing... there were 2 awesome events that came about because of it. Beecha and Mondo using Roux's core fighter as a shield to fight Glemy was just made of pure win. I laughed quite a bit from that one. The other awesome moment was when Roux Killed Glemy with Zeta's rifle. I think that's the first time I ever saw a character get vaporized while outside of a mobile suit by a beam weapon. That was just plain awesome.
I enjoyed that resolution more than the end of the Haman x Judau fight.

I suppose we can agree that Tomino didn't manage to find the right balance for ZZ, but that it nonetheless had it's highlights and managed to turn out well and good in the end after all

Elo the Blue · 2010-08-14, 12:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by brightman

I never understand the whole thing that people have against Yazan turning into comic relief. Its standard villain decay. If anything it adds a few dimensions to Yazan's shallow character from Zeta, and provides some humiliation and payback for what he did in that show.

As for the show itself, the Earth arc was definitely the best part, and in fact returned the series more to its MSG roots, with smaller scale vignettes showing the effect wars have on regular people, more localized conflicts, and even racism and racial dominance (as in whites vs. blacks, not spacenoids vs earthnoids). Whereas Zeta tend to focus a bit too much on unrealistic politics, genocidal army commanders and Cyber Newtypes tragedies instead.

By "what he did in [Zeta]", do you mean be awesome?

I couldn't agree more with your second point. I actually re-watched Rommel's Face, Masai's Heart and Blue Team episodes immediately after finishing them.

brightman · 2010-08-14, 19:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elo the Blue

By "what he did in [Zeta]", do you mean be awesome?

Well, I find him pretty awesome in ZZ too. Nothing is more awesome than surviving a jump using your jacket as a parachute.

Elo the Blue · 2010-08-15, 03:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by brightman

Well, I find him pretty awesome in ZZ too. Nothing is more awesome than surviving a jump using your jacket as a parachute.

True. Plus, we see him hobnobbing later in the series at the Federation/Neo Zeon party.

Akuma_Blade · 2010-08-15, 04:45

I have question

Spoiler for Last episode:

wm4 · 2010-08-15, 05:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akuma_Blade

I have question

Spoiler for Last episode:

Spoiler:

On the other hand, Tomino send Judo and Lu (but not others) as far as
possible so he saves their payrolls in CCA.

2010-08-09, 23:57	Link #162
RX-78GP04G Gerbera Whoosh! Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Albany Age: 38	reply Well, it was BECAUSE of Zeta ALREADY being so dark (especially at the end) that ZZ took the more light-hearted route during the first half of the series before going back about halfway in the latter half, but not all the way in that a lot of the main cast dies and all, but only so the "good guys" (Judau and co.) would end up triumphing over the inner-conflicting "bad guys" (Haman and Glemy). It would just feel a bit too depressing to see an even MORE innocent cast end up killed little by little throughout a series with a bunch of people on both sides at the end. (Kamille was still more-or-less "involved" with his parents working for the Federation already. Judau and co were simply adolescents trying to survive and live their lives however they could.) __________________ "I'll show you that a superior mobile suit has its limits when it goes up against a superior pilot!" - Char Aznable, The Red Comet "Come on! I don't feel like losing!" - Johnny Ridden, The Crimson Lightning "Hatred is the root of all war! That's common sense, boy!" - Anavel Gato, The Nightmare of Solomon

2010-08-10, 15:34	Link #167
RX-78GP04G Gerbera Whoosh! Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Albany Age: 38	reply Yeah, Turn A Gundam (along with G Gundam and Gundam X) is the only alternate universe Gundam series that I really like. The others...ehh...not so much. __________________ "I'll show you that a superior mobile suit has its limits when it goes up against a superior pilot!" - Char Aznable, The Red Comet "Come on! I don't feel like losing!" - Johnny Ridden, The Crimson Lightning "Hatred is the root of all war! That's common sense, boy!" - Anavel Gato, The Nightmare of Solomon

2010-08-10, 23:47	Link #169
RX-78GP04G Gerbera Whoosh! Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Albany Age: 38	reply You see more human-vaporizing (outside the cockpit) in Victory Gundam, lol. __________________ "I'll show you that a superior mobile suit has its limits when it goes up against a superior pilot!" - Char Aznable, The Red Comet "Come on! I don't feel like losing!" - Johnny Ridden, The Crimson Lightning "Hatred is the root of all war! That's common sense, boy!" - Anavel Gato, The Nightmare of Solomon

2010-08-11, 16:14	Link #172
RX-78GP04G Gerbera Whoosh! Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Albany Age: 38	reply Spoiler for spoiler: Not to mention the Nahel Argama is now part of Londo Bell and is seen briefly in episode 1. The NZ-666 Kshatriya is based on the NZ-000 Queen Mansa from the end of ZZ and (the real) Mineva Zabi is a character. __________________ "I'll show you that a superior mobile suit has its limits when it goes up against a superior pilot!" - Char Aznable, The Red Comet "Come on! I don't feel like losing!" - Johnny Ridden, The Crimson Lightning "Hatred is the root of all war! That's common sense, boy!" - Anavel Gato, The Nightmare of Solomon

2010-08-15, 04:45	Link #179
Akuma_Blade Last "Real Robot" Fanboy Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Turkey Age: 42	I have question Spoiler for Last episode: Why Judhau's party was sail to Jupiter at last episode? __________________ If i hear one more time "Alien" word at Gundam 00 Movie thread, i'll vomit to ground.

2010-08-09, 22:47	Link #161
artquest7@ Member Join Date: Jan 2006	So I just finished watching Double Zeta after taking a long break between the first 20 or so episodes and the rest of the show. I tried to like this show very hard, there were some things I liked but over all it seemed a bit flat. Especially when compared to Tomino's other works. A lot of cool things took place and it had a great build up to a rather odd, drawn out, and somewhat uninteresting ending. For me the problem is that there's little to no resolution for a lot of issues by the final episode. So the war is over and despite it's end being kind of lame but we don't get much in the way of character development. It's never explained why Roux Louka decides to join Judau on the trip to jupiter and it's only hinted at that the reason Judau wants to leave is just because he's sick of the earth's government. The main reason Judau fights throughout the show is to get his sister back, then he loses her again right after he saves her and at the very end he sees his sister again and still leaves her to go to Jupiter? I was just a bit confused because characters decisions ceased to make sense at this point. Especially when you add into the mix that Elle still clearly has feelings for Judau but it's Roux who's actually going with. Beecha wouldn't man up and tell Elle his feelings either. It all felt quite unresolved to me. After awhile I got used to ZZ's goofy nature so I wasn't so put off by it after I got past the moon moon episodes. My main issue though was that I had just finished watching Zeta a few days before I started ZZ. I wasn't planning on watching ZZ but my love for good ol hand animation in blue ray quality suckered me into watching the first 5 episodes in a day. I was set up for a big let down by episode 2 of ZZ gundam (I believe episode 1 was just a huge recap.) Reason being, it seemed so epic. Days after the final battle of Zeta gundam a badly damaged Argama arrives at shangra-la with what's left of the crew and a childlike Kamille. Add in Yazan to the mix and naturally you expect something awesome to follow. I got pretty much the opposite of everything I expected. I didn't really mind that the kids were goofy because that seemed to fit them perfectly. Kamille's character made sense that he was all emo and stuff since he was sheltered and had a lot of problems with his parents. These kids are used to not having anyone else, they've come to accept that they can only rely on themselves and a few close friends to get by. So naturally there's no reason for them to be sad all the time. They've accepted the cold hard facts of life and try to make the best of it. I liked that aspect of the show a lot and it was one of the few redeeming qualities of ZZ imho. I was however quite annoyed by other character's antics who should have been atleast 6x more competent to get where they ended up. (I'm looking at you mayshemere! or however u spell his name. Not to mention after showing up as a super bad ass at the end his death was very anticlimactic.) Anyway thats my 2 cents about zz gundam. I think it had a lot of potential and there were alot of good things about it. Too bad it didn't reach it's full potential. If sunrise would remake ZZ in a bit darker tone more in line with Zeta I'd watch it for sure.

2010-08-10, 02:42	Link #163
DarkLordOfkichiku Senior Member Join Date: May 2008	Certainly, the biggest flaw of Gundam ZZ is that Tomino attempted to make it comic - but comedy in large does isn't his forte and contrasts a bit too much with the otherwise rather serious (sometimes even grim) atmosphere of the UC. That's why the first half of the series feels rather painful to go through, whereas the later half takes on a more serious attitude even if doesn't quite become a Kill'Em All, becoming more enjoyable as a result... All in all, not Tomino's best work, but not the worst that I've seen so far either

2010-08-10, 03:37	Link #164
JC... I am a Pie Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: In a fantasy.	I think the real problem is that ZZ had to live up to the expectations and most people didn't like the change in atmosphere. I also think that it was right to show the veterans from the argama being beaten by some kids and oranges. I also think that it turned into more of a 'kids cartoon' because It was more or less based around episodes and arcs with less violence. My favourite part was probably the colony drop.

2010-08-11, 14:20	Link #170
JC... I am a Pie Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: In a fantasy.	I'm glad I finished Zeta, my CCA DVD arrived today, after this I've pretty much seen all the UC series'. Not the ones that come after Unicorn though. Anything I should look out for that relates to ZZ?

2010-08-11, 18:14	Link #173
Vsin Aldracity Join Date: Feb 2010	If you ask me, the only part where the "kiddyness" went too far was making Yazan comic relief. I mean, the guy is absolutely brutal when he fights...and then suddenly he's the show's punching bag? An ace of the Titans reduced to getting comically beaten and then left behind? At least Bright never had to deal with straight up children before (his first batch was desperate to survive, and his second batch was...unruly but not silly). Also, I think Moon Moon did nothing more than introduce the twins. That's it. Otherwise...I think by the time it gets to when Elpe shows up for the first time, the show definitely gets better. Or maybe it was when Judeau landed on the moon. Ugh, memory fail. I consider the first 12 episodes to be too childish, while the latter chunk is a very respectable series. They certainly threw in sillies after the first 12, but those were consistent with the characters and weren't completely out of place.