Macross Delta - Anime General Discussion Thread

[charles883]

The fact that Winderemere is unrepentant is even more reason for me to never forgive them.

Then what about Frejya, Cassim and her villager, The way you says you ALSO considered Frejya, and Cassim are unforgivable bastard you biassed

[Matts]

Nice seeing members on this board deliberately misinterpret what others had to say, if they happen to disagree with their opinions. It does bring back memories though...

Edit: Cassim went and joined the knights, never once stood up to the orders given, even when it became clear they were mind controlling people, even after it became clear they were taking over the Galaxy, enslaving people who wanted nothing to do with them. In the end he died while trying to kill Hayate, in combat, again, without any move on his part to throw over Roid for example.
If you want a good idea for a plot, he could have left and gone home to gather civilians and stand up to the institution leading them into a war murdering thousands and thousands of innocent people. He didn't. He stayed. He died. I don't care about his sob backstory or the apples. I'm not shedding a tear. There have been plenty of nameless people killed in this story already, most of them with their own families, friends and business. Nobody defending Windermere gives a crap about them.

And for the record, there are two points being raised that you guys keep deliberately misunderstanding, 1. being that Wind needs a change in government and society and 2. that the people responsible for the war, as in the military and the aristocracy present during Heinz coronation, need to stand trial and face what is coming to them. They won't, because this is Delta, but that doesn't negate the anger/distaste some of us have for these guys. The show didn't do a good job making us feel bad for them. A throw away line of about family in an episode, and doubting the cause only to end up doing it anyway doesn't do this either.

I'm done. Enjoy talking to yourselves.

[whitecloud]

http://koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nat...05_213877.html
Army plans to bombard North Korea with K-pop girl bands

Wow....who would have thunk.....it seems some guys up in the chain think it's a good idea after watching a few macross series huh...so who is North Korea? Zentradi?

[Matts]

The moe will either make or break their moral. Seriously, that is a terrible idea.

[lfhoule]

Well, it's not really new news, since the South Koreans have been doing this kind of thing for years and it ticks off the North. On the other hand, from an article on this kind of thing a few years ago which included a picture of them... I was introduced to Girl's Generation....

[encia]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

Honestly, all of Windermere is not responsible for this war.
After all, what about their children or infants who have no idea what is really going on? Are you going to hold them responsible? Or how about the soldiers who go along with everything because it's their duty? Or how about those like Cassim who only desired an end to this war so he could go home to his son?

Their emotions and/or personal opinion of the war are meaningless to those leading it on. All civilians can do is look on while their soldiers (and/or family members) go off and fight without know if this is really right or justified. And soldiers will die for it like every other war in humankind: Because they hope it's all for a good cause and will pave way for the next generation. The civilians providing support for their soldiers is no different than how Americans provide support to the US Army even if we don't know what is the real conflict (if the government covers it up, too); and people who do generous support of them are typically family members and/or spouses. And Windermere is all very close; villagers all know each other is the impression I received from Freyja in episode 18, which means 95% of the soldiers in the Windermere army are husbands, fathers, or sons of the villages.

You can argue till you're blue in the face that Windermere is unforgivable; however, it's obvious you're only viewing those who are involved in the war and proclaiming a whole planet/nation responsible for things their government and military are choosing to do. And it's this kind of biased opinion about it which prolongs wars rather than solves them. Unless you're going to open your eyes to the innocent bystanders, I'm not going to discuss this with you further. Your objective opinion has already pissed me off and reminded me of why even now, other countries still disagree or hold grudges of something which is not even applicable to our current generation anymore.

"Total war" condition can be a messy business.

Enemy's population is just a war related raw resource that can used by the enemy's government hence it can be argued that enemy's population would part of the bombing target mix.

What special about this current generation? Your left wing/progressive ideas are nice but doesn't hold water when total war condition is declared. There's nothing new under the sun.

NUNS's main fault is the failure to assess Windermere's society development level i.e. one shouldn't give advance technology (via trade) for lesser develop society and government structures. Star Trek's prime directive would have avoided the current situation between the NUNS and Windermere.

To quote  Jean-Luc Picard (TNG Symbiosis)
"The Prime Directive is not just a set of rules. It is a philosophy, and a very correct one. History has proven again and again that whenever mankind interferes with a less developed civilization, no matter how well intentioned that interference may be, the results are invariably disastrous."

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by encia

"Total war" condition can be a messy business.

Enemy's population is just a war related raw resource that can used by the enemy's government hence it can be argued that enemy's population would part of the bombing target mix.

NUNS's main fault is the failure to assess Windermere's society development level i.e. one shouldn't give advance technology (via trade) for lesser develop society and government structures. Star Trek's prime directive would have avoided the current situation between the NUNS and Windermere.

I compare how NUNS colonizes planets to how the Americans (or all humans in general) in the early days claimed land as their own without acknowledging or caring for the other civilization which lived on it first. A thousand generations or two later and NUNS is following in their footsteps. Think about Ragna for a second: It's a peaceful world where everyone is in co-existence but if you consider how little Ragna offers in terms of trade and technology, it's very little versus how much Windermere had. So NUNS basically goes around signing peace treaties to gain resources and/or allies for future wars, and it's not really creating peace because their organization in itself is flawed and damaged. After all, groups (like S.M.S.) who abandon their fleets, smuggle off of ships, or disobey orders from NUNS could escape anywhere in the universe and unless valuable information or technology or resources is involved, NUNS will care very little for justice. The organization is, as I said, only a face for mankind which acts only if necessary.

That said, soldiers do care for those civilizations which NUNS colonizes (like Wright is described). Of course, Arad gives us obvious implication soldiers can enroll from any civilization and be a soldier for very hollow reasons and NUNS will care very little for if those soldiers will do their job or help civilians; quality control is not cared about. So, of course, situations like smuggling a dimensional bomb onto Windermere unnoticed arises and it's partially NUNS issue, really.

What special about this current generation? Your left wing/progressive ideas are nice but doesn't hold water when total war condition is declared. There's nothing new under the sun.

Um, it does.

Because Windermere declared war on NUNS itself, not all civilizations, really. And NUNS doesn't give a flying fuck about it (even once civilizations began falling to mind control). This is how much NUNS cares: They come in, bomb Ragna, kill probably hundreds or thousands of civilians in the process, and all for researching Protoculture ruins and abandoning Ragna in its hour of need. Then, even more so, they force Chaos into handling it when it's their issue and war. How is this showing where NUNS acknowledges their side of this war? It's not a "full" or "total" war because only one group really is fighting: Windermere and Chaos.

After all, this isn't Frontier, where Vajra running across Frontier (a colony ship) was considered their own issue and NUNS disregarded their S.O.S. signals early on (I remember Howard Glass sent one in advance prior to his demise). Chaos is not a colony ship which ran across Windermere by accident; it's a crew which got pulled into a war with Windermere because NUNS did not care about it at all.

Again, I'm not justifying Windermere; I'm only saying NUNS is not better than Windermere.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by encia

To quote  Jean-Luc Picard (TNG Symbiosis)
"The Prime Directive is not just a set of rules. It is a philosophy, and a very correct one. History has proven again and again that whenever mankind interferes with a less developed civilization, no matter how well intentioned that interference may be, the results are invariably disastrous."

The same captain also rebelled against the prime directive in insurrection. Because those who stand for the prime directive of the federation only acted for profit.

"How many people does it take before it becomes wrong? A thousand? Fifty thousand? A million? How many people DOES IT TAKE, admiral?"

[charles883]

Too many Grey area on both side. Like UC and Cosmic Era Gundam series

The same captain also rebelled against the prime directive in insurrection. Only for profit

That because corrupt Admiral wanted to take over and forcibly remove local in Baku due to Planet ring and Atmosphere give immortality to locals. Same as NUNS wanted take over Windermere due to rich in Fold Quatz and ruin

[foxbox360]

I'm watching Macross Zero now, I got to said it relate with Delta in some ways.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by charles883

Too many Grey area on both side. Like UC and Cosmic Era Gundam series

How is the declaration of war and the desire to conquer the known universe, a grey area?

[foxbox360]

Lady M is Mao nome

[encia]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

The same captain also rebelled against the prime directive in insurrection. Because those who stand for the prime directive of the federation only acted for profit.

"How many people does it take before it becomes wrong? A thousand? Fifty thousand? A million? How many people DOES IT TAKE, admiral?"

That's not a correct application.

1. Ba'ku is a group people directly related with the Son'a e.g. same family members being divided between the two groups.

Baku and Son'a is like West and East Germany. Due to Son'a support for Dominion, UFP is in cold war state with the Son'a. Son'a civilization is warp/FTL level.

2. Rouge Rear Admiral involved the UFP into somebody's civil war and Team Picard attempted to this correct incursion. Picard reveals to Dougherty that the Son'a and the Ba'ku are the same race and involving the Federation in a blood feud. The Son'a are a splinter faction of Ba'ku who gave up their bucolic existence a century earlier to embrace the use of technology. They attempted to seize power but failed, and the Ba'ku elders exiled them from the planet, denying them the rejuvenating effects of the rings. Rouge Rear Admiral lied to UFP's Federation Council.

3. Data's malfunction stems from a Son'a attack. Prime directive is not applicable when UFP's agents are under attack.

4. If a 3rd foreign power supports a foreign power which is at war with UFP, prime directive doesn't apply.

The conclusion
Team Picard is insurrection against the rouge Admiral.

Rouge Admiral is insurrection against UFP's prime directive.

UFP's "duck blind" mission was suppose to be a fact finding mission and not get involve with the local culture.

[Convoy]

To be clear, the Prime Directive applies to all foreign peoples, not just pre-warp ones.

[encia]

Originally Posted by Convoy

To be clear, the Prime Directive applies to all foreign peoples, not just pre-warp ones.

To be clear, Warp/FTL level allows UFP's agents to start the communication process with foreign peoples.

The problem with Son'a is their support for the Dominion and UFP's prime directive doesn't cover this condition. It's a similar situation during TNG Redemption Part 1/2's Klingon civil war i.e. Romulan involvement in Klingon's civil war caused UFP to get involved, but without Romulan involvement, UFP wanted to stay out of Klingon civil war. To find out Romulan involvement, UFP sets up a blockade between near Klingon/Romulan border. UFP and Romulan Empire are in a cold war state.

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

I compare how NUNS colonizes planets to how the Americans (or all humans in general) in the early days claimed land as their own without acknowledging or caring for the other civilization which lived on it first. A thousand generations or two later and NUNS is following in their footsteps.

That's not 100 percent correct.

France has the USA's center land area.
Spain has USA's western and southern land area.
UK has USA's eastern land area..
Russia has Alaska.

After independence war, USA took over the French, Russian and Spanish colonies, but most of the damage done to the native population was already committed by European powers e.g. significant number of the native american population died from the diseases introduced by the European powers. UK was late to colonial game.

From http://www.pbs.org/gunsgermssteel/va.../smallpox.html
Within just a few generations, the continents of the Americas were virtually emptied of their native inhabitants – some academics estimate that approximately 20 million people may have died in the years following the European invasion – up to 95% of the population of the Americas.

Smallpox is believed to have arrived in the Americas in 1520 on a Spanish ship sailing from Cuba, carried by an infected African slave. As soon as the party landed in Mexico, the infection began its deadly voyage through the continent. Even before the arrival of Pizarro, smallpox had already devastated the Inca Empire, killing the Emperor Huayna Capac and unleashing a bitter civil war that distracted and weakened his successor, Atahuallpa.

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

Because Windermere declared war on NUNS itself, not all civilizations, really. And NUNS doesn't give a flying fuck about it (even once civilizations began falling to mind control). This is how much NUNS cares: They come in, bomb Ragna, kill probably hundreds or thousands of civilians in the process, and all for researching Protoculture ruins and abandoning Ragna in its hour of need. Then, even more so, they force Chaos into handling it when it's their issue and war. How is this showing where NUNS acknowledges their side of this war? It's not a "full" or "total" war because only one group really is fighting: Windermere and Chaos.

After all, this isn't Frontier, where Vajra running across Frontier (a colony ship) was considered their own issue and NUNS disregarded their S.O.S. signals early on (I remember Howard Glass sent one in advance prior to his demise). Chaos is not a colony ship which ran across Windermere by accident; it's a crew which got pulled into a war with Windermere because NUNS did not care about it at all.

Again, I'm not justifying Windermere; I'm only saying NUNS is not better than Windermere

The problem with NUNS are thier military setup i.e. assigning a Battle Macross class per Macross City colony after planetary colonization is wasteful for lower intensity conflicts and coast guard work e.g. Macross Quarter class would do the job for most cases e.g. lower level conflicts and coast guard work.

With 30 known Macross colonies, NUNS could reorganize the fleet by grouping 10 Battle Macross class ships into a powerful mobile battle group. Macross Quarter class would be assigned for colonization protection and coast guard work.

The problem is similar to WW2's tank force setup i.e. French+UK has superior numbers of tanks over the Germans but western allies still lost the initial battle. French+UK didn't group their tanks into a single large tank force.

This is like the NUNS wasting Nimitz class aircraft carrier for lower level conflicts and mostly coast guard work.
A battle group with powerful 10 unit Battle Macross class would have ended Windermere's issue sooner and tackle the next issue.

For NUNS's relatively short life as a galactic power, it's already has EU(European Union) style fractures and division.

Chaos could have ended Windermere's issue by ramming (Daedalus Attack) the Battle Macross Elysion into Protoculture flagship after the exchange of large energy beam weapons fire. Elysion's rules of engagement may have limitations i.e. another half baked combat policy.

[Convoy]

...yeah, doesn't everyone already know the basics of the Native American genocide?

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

I compare how NUNS colonizes planets to how the Americans (or all humans in general) in the early days claimed land as their own without acknowledging or caring for the other civilization which lived on it first.

I find your comparison kind of weird, really. Ragna seemed perfectly fine, and it's people seemed energetic and happy, until Windermere started going about its warmongering ways.

The native Ragnans seemed fine, and happy good-natured content people. What evidence is there that NUNs caused any harm to these people prior to Windermere declaring war?

Because Windermere declared war on NUNS itself, not all civilizations, really. And NUNS doesn't give a flying fuck about it (even once civilizations began falling to mind control).

That's not true at all. NUNs engaged Windermere forces in Episode 15, after the fall of Ragna, and NUNs ended up getting obliterated due to the combination of an ace pilot (Keith) and var use. After that disastrous fiasco, it's understandable that NUNs doesn't want to risk further lives in combat against Windermere. And NUNs did try to make a peace agreement with Roid, which he rejected.

This is how much NUNS cares: They come in, bomb Ragna, kill probably hundreds or thousands of civilians in the process, and all for researching Protoculture ruins and abandoning Ragna in its hour of need.

Your casualty figure is pure speculation, going by what the anime has showed, from what I can recall. On what basis do you claim "hundreds of thousands" of civilians?

Again, I'm not justifying Windermere; I'm only saying NUNS is not better than Windermere.

That's a truly ridiculous argument on your part, at least if we restrict ourselves to what the anime itself has shown. Windermere has been a violent aggressor from the very first episode, and they have severely harmed multiple worlds with their warmongering and their var-use. I see no good basis for your attempt at moral equivalency here.

Could reveals made in the final two episodes change this? Sure. But going by what we have to evaluate right now, in the anime, Windermere is a far worse actor than NUNs is.

[Convoy]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

That's a truly ridiculous argument on your part, at least if we restrict ourselves to what the anime itself has shown. Windermere has been a violent aggressor from the very first episode, and they have severely harmed multiple worlds with their warmongering and their var-use. I see no good basis for your attempt at moral equivalency here.

This. Thank you.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I find your comparison kind of weird, really. Ragna seemed perfectly fine, and it's people seemed energetic and happy, until Windermere started going about its warmongering ways.

The native Ragnans seemed fine, and happy good-natured content people. What evidence is there that NUNs caused any harm to these people prior to Windermere declaring war?




That's not true at all. NUNs engaged Windermere forces in Episode 15, after the fall of Ragna, and NUNs ended up getting obliterated due to the combination of an ace pilot (Keith) and var use. After that disastrous fiasco, it's understandable that NUNs doesn't want to risk further lives in combat against Windermere. And NUNs did try to make a peace agreement with Roid, which he rejected.




Your casualty figure is pure speculation, going by what the anime has showed, from what I can recall. On what basis do you claim "hundreds of thousands" of civilians?




That's a truly ridiculous argument on your part, at least if we restrict ourselves to what the anime itself has shown. Windermere has been a violent aggressor from the very first episode, and they have severely harmed multiple worlds with their warmongering and their var-use. I see no good basis for your attempt at moral equivalency here.

Could reveals made in the final two episodes change this? Sure. But going by what we have to evaluate right now, in the anime, Windermere is a far worse actor than NUNs is.

Not much to add to this. Actually, I think the Evil Nuns Guy might not even turn up again in the last two episodes. The small NUNS cabal so far was a throwaway villain for two episodes and then they buggered off to cackle evilly somewhere else.

[Mistyclear]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Not much to add to this. Actually, I think the Evil Nuns Guy might not even turn up again in the last two episodes. The small NUNS cabal so far was a throwaway villain for two episodes and then they buggered off to cackle evilly somewhere else.

Either that or it was meant to introduce the guy to us, you know for a movie addition (if there is one) or for the next series....