Code Geass - General Character Discussion

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Jekyl

He wasn’t omniscient viewer, but actually was more or less aware about his father’s political course.

That does not change his motivation. He wanted the fighting to end, that is all. He did not think about the consequences of his actions. He himself admits this.

Originally Posted by Jekyl

The words you make reference to were said by Bismarck, Charles’s most trusted man, his supporter and in a way soul mate. And Charles is known for his burning hatred of lie and never trusted anyone. But against his personal antipathy, Charles made Suzaku KoR and trusted him Area 11, which entails some positive changes.
Nunnally trusted backstabber like him, knowing about his lie. No one dare to object to this backstabber when he allowed 1000 Zero supporters to leave the area, though many had the objections. Schniezel never cared about Suzaku’s moral, until he can bring the results.
Charles can be most powerful man in the world, but he is not all power of the world. And well opinion can be changed.

You're making things up. Bismarck is Charles' right-hand man, which means he knows how Charles thinks. Charles outright lied to Suzaku about Geass and the Sword of Akasha (the contract only entailed him and V.V. not lying to each other). This nonsense about "trusted him Area 11" is just that. He did not trust him with anything. Suzaku acted on his own.

Nunnally did not trust him, she had to put up with him. She knew he was lying, and called him on it. Schneizel just let Suzaku do what he wanted.

Charles is the most powerful person in Britannia, period. There is no ifs, ands, or buts about this. His word is law. Opinion doesn't change as long as he's in power.

Originally Posted by Jekyl

Why he needed KoR position then? He already had revenged what he wanted to revenge. And he had more chances to die when he was mere soldier.

Since he disliked unnecessary violence so much, I believe, what he wanted was to save as many lives as he can. If it demands to kill 100 people to save 1000 he accepted it, if it demands to sacrifice his own live he accepted it. Though, yeah, if you would prefer to ignore the whole part about his motivations and aims, Suzaku looks like pretty silly masochist who’d changed his pride for the funky blue cape.

Suzaku only asked for the position so he would feel better about himself. As soon as he gets an excuse (Turn 8 and 18), he'll drop his self-righteous plan for a chance at death.

You're making up the second part. He's not saving lives, in fact as a soldier he willfully participates in the massacre of the Shinjuku Ghetto. There is no way to claim ignorance on this fact. The times he tries to sacrifice his life are solely to make himself feel better. His aims are just an excuse for that goal, because if given the chance his personal atonement means far more to him than Japan does.

Originally Posted by Jekyl

Where it is said that Lelouch care about world (before R2 ep.20)?
He made it clear many times, he wants to revenge himself, his sister and mother’s death and to make Nunnally’s life save and happy. He used revolution, OtBK, the world like tools and had no problem to drop them like he almost did in ep.7.
And how the fact that he recognized his own hypocrisy and continued to act hypocritical makes him better?

It makes him honest, not deluded. As for making the world a better place, that's Nunnally's entire wish. He cared about the entire world. Suzaku does not.

Originally Posted by Jekyl

The key word is ‘only’, I think. When you used to know someone like kind, caring person among the friends and siblings, your perception of him probably would be like of kind, caring person, like, in general, not only here and there.

Fair enough.

Originally Posted by Jekyl

The SAZ idea was impossible as long as there was terroristic treat against Britannia and no guarantee that area could be kept in order.

Making things up again. The SAZ was put in place to derail the terrorists.

Originally Posted by Jekyl

If by ‘grow up’ you mean ‘became mentally unstable to the point when you loose yourself and can accept everything’, then - yeah, otherwise - no. And how God killing Charles scene made him to grow up?
When I called him mentally more adult I meant that he was capable to see through hatred that Britannia is not the Empire of Doom.

Watching Charile get killed by God was meant as a time marker, not an actual growth experience. Nuking all those people sure as hell made him grow up, because before that point he had a constant stick up his ass about wrong means being meaningless when everything he did served to only make the world progressively worse. That snapped him out of his naive ideals and gave him some much needed perspective.

As for the last part, he didn't grow up at all in that respect. He only bowed to his conquerors out of guilt for killing his father, then because about the most naive guy on the planet to think he had a chance in hell of changing things from within.

Originally Posted by Jekyl

Which he demonstrated in his inability to convert Suzaku in Zero’s supporter.
I believe the moment Lelouch really start to understand him is when he learned the true behind his mother’s death and his father’s actions and that all his previous fight was just tilting at windmill, which meant ‘more bloodshed to put meaning in all previous’.

Your logic his flawed. His inability to convert Suzaku is because Suzaku is a stubborn idiot. Lelouch accepted Suzaku's way of doing things right after Rolo died, but took his own method anyway because he knows that such a method is self-defeating.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

That's like saying Suzaku already tried to change the system through violence and learned that it would only bring suffering.

Which is actually true. Suzaku tried an act of rebellion that backfired on him, and naively thought working within the system would get results. As morbosfist said, Suzaku realized that wasn't working either when he ended up firing off FLEIJA. Frankly though, I'm surprised that he didn't learn any sooner given the barbaric and repressive acts he was an accessory to, especially after becoming a Knight of Rounds.

The conclusion Lelouch came to as a child is understandable, but that still doesn't make it right or any less egocentric. His father threw them away, so everyone at the court has to be the same, and no one there might still be ready to support them - that's what Lelouch thought. He saw everyone there as his enemy, even those who still loved him.

He came to a conclusion based on an entire society's sense of atrocity and repression, and he saw that on an outward front, siblings like Cornelia and Schneizel were no better, even if they still did love him.

Also, Lelouch tried to confront his father incredibly openly. That doesn't mean he couldn't have done it a bit more like Schneizel and worked against him in a more subtle way.

He didn't have the tools needed for accomplishing things as Schneizel was able to. Schneizel was Prime Minister, after all.

Sure, Cornelia probably wouldn't have started a rebellion with Lelouch, but she would still have supported him and Nunally in the court, as her siblings. Also, no one knows if he couldn't have convinced her - she never took Euphie very seriously when it came to politics; Lelouch, on the other hand, could have tried to reasson with her, especially as Marianne's son.

Perhaps. Unfortunately though, Lelouch had since seen Cornelia, who was literally willing to take no prisoners and show no mercy on Numbers, even civilians, in an extremely negative light. How could he expect someone who had become so contrary to what he was up against to see eye to eye with him? Whether or not she took Euphemia seriously was a non-factor. Cornelia was a person who was utterly devoted to the Social Darwinist system of Britannia, and saw Numbers as statistics at best. Literally.

And Schneizel never really agreed with Charles' ideals. He didn't care enough to do anything about them in the beginning, but I don't see why he shouldn't have supported Lelouch in one way or another, and later on treated him as a potential ally.

He didn't care to do anything until it became clear that Charles no longer had any interest in the world. Other than that, Schneizel had his own agendas, and was known for being diplomatic only if Britannia had already scored the larger victory. Lelouch had also known him and his methodologies through their chess matches, and evidently knew he couldn't be trusted.

I'm aware of that, but really, how should have Lelouch gotten those results without a Geass? He didn't know he would get that kind of power back then, and without it, he'd probably have had much better chances to change something as a prince.

You're right about the first part, but Charles treated all of his children like pawns, and knew and made sure that there wasn't anything any of them could do to significantly change things. On top of that, Lelouch knew that he couldn't take the risk of being used as a pawn once again after the country he was in, Japan, was invaded by Britannia itself, demonstrating a flagrant lack of care for him or Nunnally. And of course, he had already been screwed by the system, and very badly, so what would the point be in trusting that same system again? Besides, when Charles rewrote his memories prior to R2, that he was a Britannian prince was among the memories blocked out pretty much suggests that Charles would have likely never been interested in taking him back as royalty under any circumstances.

Originally Posted by Jekyl

Where it is said that Lelouch care about world (before R2 ep.20)?

Rewatch season 1, stage 7 for an example.

He made it clear many times, he wants to revenge himself, his sister and mother’s death and to make Nunnally’s life save and happy. He used revolution, OtBK, the world like tools and had no problem to drop them like he almost did in ep.7.

He was just being shortsighted in his vision of a better world up until that point, which focused on Nunnally. During that episode he had a Heroic BSOD which centered on his inability to come to grips with this.

[synaesthetic]

Lelouch used the Black Knights and the Japanese people for his own purposes, true. What always turned R2 into a wallbanger for me was the fact that throughout the entire existence of the Black Knights, they used Lelouch just as much as he used them.

And when Schneizel reveals his [ridiculously circumstantial] "evidence," they get all pissy about being used by Lelouch. After using him, his skills and his intelligence the whole time. What a bunch of hypocrites. Seriously.

I can understand turning against Lelouch after discovering that he was the one who Geassed Euphie (and did not admit that it wasn't intentional). What I can't fathom is why they joined with Schneizel when it was plainly obvious that he was a black-hearted bastard several orders of magnitude worse than Lelouch.

They knew he had FLEIA, they knew he nuked the shit out of Pendragon and killed 200 million people. Even Cornelia turned against him when she found out, and she's dedicated to the Britannian system.

Pretty much the whole of R2's ending was just an enormous copout, including the amazingly cliche and trite Zero Requiem. Like we don't have enough "take on all sins to unite the world" Jesus-wannabe plots.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

I can understand turning against Lelouch after discovering that he was the one who Geassed Euphie (and did not admit that it wasn't intentional). What I can't fathom is why they joined with Schneizel when it was plainly obvious that he was a black-hearted bastard several orders of magnitude worse than Lelouch.

Well, Lelouch either completely gave up on life at that point or saw that defending himself against that whole kangaroo court, given that it was Schneizel's "checkmate", a futile battle, and saw that the Black Knights were ready to shoot Kallen down along with him, evidence that they just didn't care. The only sensible thing Lelouch felt he could do was lie to Kallen in order to push her away from him and have her spared from the fate he would have suffered if not for Rolo's intervention.

But yes, their logic was faulty, given that Lelouch was a former Britannian prince, while Schneizel was the most prominent current (though not first in line) prince. Due to his deceptive diplomacy though, I don't think very many of the BKs if any at all knew his true self. Xing-ke was one of the few people who knew how dangerous he was, and he was occupied elsewhere with the UFN, sadly.

Oh, and Ohgi was also at fault for idiocy, not to mention the lion's share of the hypocrisy on part of the Black Knights.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by azul120

But yes, their logic was faulty, given that Lelouch was a former Britannian prince, while Schneizel was the most prominent current (though not first in line) prince. Due to his deceptive diplomacy though, I don't think very many of the BKs if any at all knew his true self. Xing-ke was one of the few people who knew how dangerous he was, and he was occupied elsewhere with the UFN, sadly.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I would be more inclined to accept that travesty if we'd at least gotten one "What the helll?!" speech out of either Kaguya or Xingke. It wouldn't have taken more than a minute or two to get some good chewing out in. As it stands, they just looked like they were pissed for a minute and let it go come timeskip.

[bladeofdarkness]

to be fair
they DID have a video of lelouch admiting that he had been using them like pawns from the start
this tape includes kallen's attempt to defend him and him laughing in her face and calling her a pawn as well, so if SHE tries to defend him or deny what he said, she'd be treated like she's crazy/geassed
so while the WAY that the rest of the OOBK turned on lelouch may have been poor, to kaguya and xing-ke, they at least had a produced the right results
especially given the time skip

[Betteroffer]

This ignores the issue of WHY in hell's name they would videotape themselves betraying their leader with such shody evidence. They have a video of themselves yelling at him about "Geese" for all anybody knows and sounded hellbent on killing him from the get go.

What if he had tried to reason his way out, backed by the young girl he just broke out of jail, and they still tried to gun him down then and there and showed that to Xing-ke?

What if they had someone take a good listen to the audio for the "Live On" line to Kallen, or cleaned the video up to read his lips for it, if it couldn't be heard? For a video of that level of signifigance, I'd think they'd want to look closely at it (at least Xing-ke would), and Kallen should have tried to bring it up with him at least. I know none of this happened, but there doesn't seem to be a reason why it didn't. If Kallen was so convinced that she needed an answer from Lelouch, then going to Xing-ke would have been her best shot of making sure they'd catch him alive to get it, given that he was intelligent, high ranked in the Order, and more impartial than the Japanese members of the BK.

The tape they did get showed Lelouch demean Kallen, her walk away (implying she wasn't under his control if she could leave him), and him whisper something, to her once she is too far away to do anything to help him. At the least they should try to confirm what it was he said since he survived, since he might have said "Meet me at this point..." or "Go crazy and kill them in their sleep."

If Kallen had sat down with Xing-ke, then they might have at least given Lelouch the benifit of the doubt (not that it would stop him from doing ZR at that point), once everything came back to trusting Ohgi, who was trusting the woman he was banging behind everyone's backs, who in turn had her own walk-in closet full of skeletons.

From this, Kallen or Xing-ke could even accuse Viletta of being the one who grabbed Nunally, making Zero abandon them in the first place. It wouldn't excuse Zero's abandoning them, but it was clearly done to get Zero away fom the BK, so her having a (posibly intentional) part in it would further damage her credibility.

[synaesthetic]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

to be fair
they DID have a video of lelouch admiting that he had been using them like pawns from the start
this tape includes kallen's attempt to defend him and him laughing in her face and calling her a pawn as well, so if SHE tries to defend him or deny what he said, she'd be treated like she's crazy/geassed
so while the WAY that the rest of the OOBK turned on lelouch may have been poor, to kaguya and xing-ke, they at least had a produced the right results
especially given the time skip

That is irrelevant. As I mentioned in the first post, the Japanese resistance movement used Lelouch as much if not more than he used them.

And then they act all betrayed and upset when he admits that he used them.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Regarding the Kallen issue, Lelouch only said what he said to Kallen to save her life. If he would have admitted that he cared for her, she never would have walked away. Both Lelouch and Kallen would have been gunned down.

[bladeofdarkness]

my point was that the video seems to confirm the accusations that the OOBK were leveling at lelouch's feet
it wouldnt matter to kaguya or xing-ke if this was cheap or unfair
the guy admited that he had used them all like saps

and that the only one there who KNEW why he was willingly admiting to have used them as pawns would not be able to argue in his defense without sounding like crazy
just picture kallen saying "no, you dont understand, he said all those things to protect ME"
she'd be thought of as either crazy, delusional, or under the influance of his geass
and either way, not a believable witness
and having her say "he's a good guy, you have to believe me, i knew about him from the start but i kept the truth from you all" wouldnt have helped her case

[morbosfist]

Given how they were acting, it would not be difficult, at all, for Kallen to convince either Xingke or Kaguya that Lelouch had the best of intentions when saying those things. They have her on tape just asking to let him explain himself, and she is met with baseless accusations and threats of being killed. She could easily be more credible than Ohgi, who's romantically involved with an enemy soldier. Tohdoh would be more difficult, but he wasn't the one leading the charge, so to speak.

[bladeofdarkness]

ougi is involved with an enemy soldier
kallen might be (for all they know) involved with lelouch
they went to the same school, same age, she's the closer to him then any of them, and his response to her capture was WAY beyond commander/soldier
she's not any more credible then ougi is (even less, consdiering that she knew who he was all along and kept it secret)

[morbosfist]

Ohgi's publicly involved with an enemy soldier, and under her advice betrayed their leader with no due process and without even consulting his superiors. I don't care how you argue it, they did not have the authority to do what they did.

Kallen never has to admit ever knowing who Zero is before that point, and even if she did it wouldn't change the fact that he's done nothing but help them. Furthermore, she's been in prison most of the time, while Ohgi's been collaborating with the enemy during the same time.

As for keeping his identity secret, it is easily argued that she did it exactly because the Black Knights, selfish bastards that they are, would react terribly and damage their own cause. In addition, they were already acting irrational before that. Asahina flat-out broke ranks in the middle of a fucking warzone to go capture Rolo. This is the epitome of incompetence.

Kallen would not only be more credible than these people, one look at the facts by either Xingke or Kaguya and she'd probably end up outranking them. The fact that none of them are even demoted is enough of a wallbanger.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Ohgi's publicly involved with an enemy soldier, and under her advice betrayed their leader with no due process and without even consulting his superiors. I don't care how you argue it, they did not have the authority to do what they did.

i dont think there is EVER a situation where you have authority to pull a coup on your leader
but they did have an excuse i suppose

Kallen never has to admit ever knowing who Zero is before that point, and even if she did it wouldn't change the fact that he's done nothing but help them. Furthermore, she's been in prison most of the time, while Ohgi's been collaborating with the enemy during the same time.

if that were true, they wouldnt have tried axing him
murdering the JLF and triggering the SAZ massacre might be frowned upon

As for keeping his identity secret, it is easily argued that she did it exactly because the Black Knights, selfish bastards that they are, would react terribly and damage their own cause. In addition, they were already acting irrational before that. Asahina flat-out broke ranks in the middle of a fucking warzone to go capture Rolo. This is the epitome of incompetence.

i'd expect that kaguya at least would take offense to that one (she knew lelouch longer then kallen, and she didnt tell her either)
xing-ke didnt belong with them at the time, so he might not have cared

Kallen would not only be more credible than these people, one look at the facts by either Xingke or Kaguya and she'd probably end up outranking them. The fact that none of them are even demoted is enough of a wallbanger.

the FACTS were this
lelouch WAS a britannian prince in disguise
lelouch DID have a geass, which he used on a while variety of people without much care
lelouch did murder the leaders of the JLF
lelouch WAS resposible for the massacre at the SAZ
lelouch DID hide all these things from the OOBK
and later on, so did KALLEN HERSELF
a fact which would have likely had a different effect then what she would probably have wanted while trying to explain
she would have been less likely to convince them to forgive lelouch, and more likely to convince them to hang her right beside him

[synaesthetic]

Toudou probably would have been the easiest of all to convince, really. Throughout the first season, every time the Black Knights bring up something about not trusting Zero, Toudou is the one that speaks up and says, "basically, we're just using him to get Japan back."

So yeah. Toudou is one of the few people who has their head on straight.

Lelouch did hold the Idiot Ball involving the Black Knights in the destruction of the Geass Order. He should have taken C.C. and Rolo with him and no one else. They could easily have mopped up there and none of the Black Knights would be the wiser.

Certainly Asahina would not have started throwing blandishments and accusations around concerning an incident of which he has little or no knowledge. I'm sure he'd be perfectly willing after watching those "innocent little kids" mind-control his soldiers into killing each other or themselves.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

i dont think there is EVER a situation where you have authority to pull a coup on your leader
but they did have an excuse i suppose

There are right ways to get your superior officer relived of duty, and as a military force to a coalition of nations, those options were readily available.

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

if that were true, they wouldnt have tried axing him
murdering the JLF and triggering the SAZ massacre might be frowned upon

Yet both those events, only one of which they even have proof he actually did, were for the greater good of Japan, as is everything else he did. They were ungrateful, and Ohgi admits it. He admits openly that they got what they wanted and don't need him, with the half-assed excuse that "he used us first."

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

i'd expect that kaguya at least would take offense to that one (she knew lelouch longer then kallen, and she didnt tell her either)
xing-ke didnt belong with them at the time, so he might not have cared

Kaguya met Lelouch all of once as I recall. Xingke's a different story. He probably wouldn't care.

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

the FACTS were this
lelouch WAS a britannian prince in disguise
lelouch DID have a geass, which he used on a while variety of people without much care
lelouch did murder the leaders of the JLF
lelouch WAS resposible for the massacre at the SAZ
lelouch DID hide all these things from the OOBK
and later on, so did KALLEN HERSELF
a fact which would have likely had a different effect then what she would probably have wanted while trying to explain
she would have been less likely to convince them to forgive lelouch, and more likely to convince them to hang her right beside him

Lelouch was a prince, they can prove that. Lelouch having Geass, they cannot prove beyond a snippet of recording and the testimony of their enemies. Same thing with the JLF, and that was even worse since they were outright guessing at what they think were instances of his Geass being used. They have no proof. Massacre at the SAZ is valid, but only to a point and they really didn't have concrete evidence. Hiding things that may or may not have happened? I don't think so. Kallen's knowledge is entirely contained to herself. No one else can be sure she knew Lelouch's identity.

Kallen could have easily won over Xingke and Kaguya, because they would be more willing to listen to reason than the others. Add on to that their under-the-table deal to get Japan back, done without any discussion, and she could discredit them in no time flat.

[snowdevil_crow]

They were pretty stressed out, and some crazy stuff had been happening. I think they had good reason to do what they did, even if it was a bit stupid, in retrospect. They were desperate, confused, and had just witnessed their commander showing absolutely no interest or care in the deaths of a bunch of his army as well as millions of civillians.

When you look at it rationally, yes, Schneizel didn't have much evidence. But he is very good at being manipulating, and he had just enough sort-of-evidence to convince them, given their state of mind and the general mood.

Not to mention, almost everything he said was actually true. The Black Knights couldn't really have known this for certain, but it did add up to fit together in the worst possible way. And yes, Lelouch had hidden the Geass Cult massacre from them, Toudou, at least, knew that for certain.

I think if Lelouch hadn't been of the state of mind he was at the time, he would have been able to talk his way out of it. I think he could have reasoned with him --- they were angry and desperate, but if he had tried he would have had a good chance at maybe worming his way out of there. Schneizel's presence could have been pretty inconvenient, but I think if he had even tried to speak to them, at least some would have listened. Remember, they didn't really want to believe that he was evil, and I think some (Tamaki, for certain) were still holding out for him just waving it all away as lies.

But, since he was both depressed over Nunnally and concerned for Kallen's safety, he just sort of... gave up.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Lelouch was a prince, they can prove that.

Operative word being was, and more than likely disenfranchised/betrayed by Britannia upon basic deduction, which just happened to be the case. And they went and trusted the word of the most prominent current prince with few reservations.

Originally Posted by snowdevil_crow

When you look at it rationally, yes, Schneizel didn't have much evidence. But he is very good at being manipulating, and he had just enough sort-of-evidence to convince them, given their state of mind and the general mood.

Not that it would make much difference. He was as selective as he could be with what he had for the sake of his argument, in that he only played the part of the Lelouch/Suzaku conversation where Lelouch says "I gave the order", leaving out the part where Suzaku later notes that Lelouch had been untruthful. And Schneizel was of course downright manipulative about Lelouch being "warned" about FLEIJA, when the recording suggested that Lelouch couldn't trust Suzaku's warning due to the apparent betrayal thing, which of course Schneizel and Kanon set up. (Not to mention of course that there was no former precedent for such a weapon, let alone that it had just been created, and was being operated with a more traditional piece of weaponry.)

[synaesthetic]

The whole betrayal never would have worked if Lelouch had handled the Geass Order's destruction without their involvement.

Oh, and if Ougi wasn't such a moron.

[Betteroffer]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

The whole betrayal never would have worked if Lelouch had handled the Geass Order's destruction without their involvement.

Oh, and if Ougi wasn't such a moron.

Actually, it was necessary to bring along more than just C.C., Rolo, and Jeremiah to wip out the Geass Directorate. They needed a team to strike from multiple directions and secure the Directorate in a way that prevented the possibility of any scientists and/or Geass users from escaping. There were scenes showing a purple screen with red hexagons appearing over it. This was demonstrating that they were securing lcations and forcing any survivors into the center.

C.C. had to seperate from the rest of the BK forces to intercept the escape train with all the research data. That would leave just Lelouch, Rolo, and Jeremiah to face any defences the Directorate had, and we can't be sure how much knowledge Leloch would have of its defences, aside from Jeremiah assuming that they could expect to face a rebuilt Seigfreid, which singlehandedly took out a large number of the BK forces, and would have been a LOT harder to stop if Cornelia hadn't strapped 50 guns to an Akatsuki and made a surprise attack. If Lelouch was indeed expecting the Seigfreid to be an issue, then the bomb on Rolo's Vincent might have been strong enough to break through the electromagnetic armour of the Seigfreid, but we don't know.

Lelouch's mistake in dealing with the Directorate was that he didn't Geass Zero Squadron's survivors to erase the footage of the attack or not tape it at all (it WAS a covert operation afterall) and to either forget the attack, never reveal it, or believe that it was a military instilation with actual soldiers. The reason he didn't is never given, since he had enough time to deduce that Britannia was acting in a way that suggested Charles was absent and therefore trapped in the Thought Elevator. Beyond that, why did he even wait to see if Charles was trapped. What if Charles revealled from the start that he wasn't?

As for the betrayal, the BK were still killing their leader on the words of an enemy leader. We are never told if Schneizel even agreed to return Japan, so there is a chance they knew they were doing it for nothing. Even if Schneizel returned Japan, the Emperor would order him to retake it as Japan had a Thought Elevator, though the surface justification would be the Sakuradite.

What could the BK expect to happen afterwards? The 'decisive battle' had gone to Britannia and even if the UFN got Japan, it was through a mercy negotiation, not military force. With this, then the other Areas would be much less inclined to rebel, which was a key factor in spreading Britannia's military forces thin enough for the UFN to actually beat it. With the appearance of FLEIJA this was NOT going to work and the BK had tossed out their founder, and the only person who could deal with this, just as their enemy revealled a weapon that can swallow entire cities in one shot (Nina confirms that EACH ONE can have a diameter of 100 miles if the limiters are removed).

As for Kallen dealing with Kaguya and Xing-ke, once she saw Ohgi was busy claiming that soldiers apparently shouldn't be used as soldiers, she should have gone to Xing-ke and told him about the tape and that Lelouch told her something. She could try to claim he was saving her, or she could say that he may have told her some coded message, or possibly triggered a Geass command, which would persuade him to have the tape footage enhanced to a point where Lelouch's words could be heard or his lips read.

[Jekyl]

To end this subject…

Originally Posted by morbosfist

That does not change his motivation. He wanted the fighting to end, that is all. He did not think about the consequences of his actions. He himself admits this.

You mix up different things. Motivation is motivation. His internal motivation was egoistic, though he didn’t like to admit it, but his aim wasn’t. If you think that wanting to stop pointless bloodshed is selfish reason then there is something wrong with your definition of selfishness.

Charles is the most powerful person in Britannia, period. There is no ifs, ands, or buts about this. His word is law. Opinion doesn't change as long as he's in power.

If there is no ifs, no ands and no buts for you then it’s pointless to argue about characters, acts, motivations and stuff, because even with fictional characters you should deal with all ifs, ands and buts of life and human’s mind in order to understand them. There was ‘if’ for Charles, Suzaku, Schniezel, Naoto and whoever else, because they are characters, not decorations in play about Lelouch fighting Britannia.

You're making things up. Bismarck is Charles' right-hand man, which means he knows how Charles thinks. Charles outright lied to Suzaku about Geass and the Sword of Akasha (the contract only entailed him and V.V. not lying to each other). This nonsense about "trusted him Area 11" is just that. He did not trust him with anything. Suzaku acted on his own.

Nunnally did not trust him, she had to put up with him. She knew he was lying, and called him on it. Schneizel just let Suzaku do what he wanted.

He acted on his own because he was trusted enough. If the word ‘trusted’ doesn’t fit you then change it to ‘allowed to act on his own because, in spite of his reputation, no one expected his betrayal’.
Nunnally didn’t have to put up with him. Her business was to administrate Area, his – to settle military questions (or something like this), but she asked Suzaku for help.

Suzaku only asked for the position so he would feel better about himself. As soon as he gets an excuse (Turn 8 and 18), he'll drop his self-righteous plan for a chance at death.

In Turn 8 even though he opened himself to attack, he already knew that it’s pointless. This one doesn’t count like serious suicide attempt (let alone that with such excuse he could shoot himself anytime, well, before geass happened). In Turn 18 he actually was trying to resist geass command, but at that point his only options were either to die or to fire FLEIA.

You're making up the second part. He's not saving lives, in fact as a soldier he willfully participates in the massacre of the Shinjuku Ghetto. There is no way to claim ignorance on this fact.

There is nothing to ignore because he did not participate in massacre actually. He was sent to Shinjuku to find a bomb, which he was doing until meeting with Lelouch. When Clovis commanded to start massacre Suzaku was already busy lying unconscious with fake wound.

It makes him honest, not deluded. As for making the world a better place, that's Nunnally's entire wish. He cared about the entire world. Suzaku does not.

So he was honest to himself and maybe Nunnally, hypocritical to whole other world, I still don’t see what to praise here, though it’s probably the matter of taste.
Lelouch cared about Nunnally, period. He was ready to drop his world liberating crusade in Turn 7 after Nunnally said she don’t want it. He didn’t try to escape from FLEIA when he understood that Nunnally is dead.
Maybe Kallen’s words in Turn 7 changed something, but in takes another 10+ episodes and Nunnally’s ‘death’ for him to see that he was ‘shortsighted’.

Nuking all those people sure as hell made him grow up, because before that point he had a constant stick up his ass about wrong means being meaningless when everything he did served to only make the world progressively worse. That snapped him out of his naive ideals and gave him some much needed perspective.

More like it snapped him out of his mind, because situation became so bad that he didn’t know what to do anymore.

Your logic his flawed. His inability to convert Suzaku is because Suzaku is a stubborn idiot.

Suzaku as stubborn as every normal human would be about his views if it really worth something for him.

Lelouch accepted Suzaku's way of doing things right after Rolo died, but took his own method anyway because he knows that such a method is self-defeating.

Right, and it takes only 40+ episodes…