Morality in Code Geass? Do the ends justify the means?

[Anh_Minh]

I wouldn't call you much of a pacifist if you enforce your ideals, no matter what they are, with military power.

[JMvS]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I wouldn't call you much of a pacifist if you enforce your ideals, no matter what they are, with military power.

Well being pacific and promoting pacifism are alas two different things in our world.

[Anh_Minh]

I don't think many people are that confused. You see, just saying "stop fighting", or "let's not fight" isn't pacifism, and can be enforced with military might.

But you can't be a pacifist if you fight.

[4Tran]

Pacifism is the disavowal of the use of violence in order to pursue a goal; hence, any action that involves the use of violence is not a pacifistic one. Not liking the use of force isn't particularly unusual, and it certainly does not qualify one as a pacifist. Even taken to an extreme (but still short of a disavowal of the use of violence), the character can be said to have pacifistic tendencies, but he would still not be a pacifist. In fact, the only character in Code Geass that comes to mind as a pacifist is Euphemia.

[Witacume]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Pacifism is the disavowal of the use of violence in order to pursue a goal; hence, any action that involves the use of violence is not a pacifistic one. Not liking the use of force isn't particularly unusual, and it certainly does not qualify one as a pacifist. Even taken to an extreme (but still short of a disavowal of the use of violence), the character can be said to have pacifistic tendencies, but he would still not be a pacifist. In fact, the only character in Code Geass that comes to mind as a pacifist is Euphemia.

Well Euphemia would be the closest to being pacifist that we got so far. Yet she still allows for Suzaku to defend people. like when they are in the island. Pacifism is something that is grand and really only accomplish by a elite few. (Ghandi)

[SuperKnuckles]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I wouldn't call you much of a pacifist if you enforce your ideals, no matter what they are, with military power.

Except it's a necessary evil. Note how I said "relatively pacifistic". Compared to armies with full offense capabilities and a mandate that lets them invade other nations in an offensive act, that is QUITE different from an army that at least fashions itself more as a police force than a real army. Even the most neutral nations do have armies not to fight but to defend itself in case of outside intervention.

Really, there is really no such a thing as true neutrality or true pacifism. It's about the relative amount you put in practice in terms of moderation. Japan, for being a 1st world power, is definitely more of a pacifistic type of force than most.

I mean, besides full blown wars and other acts of violent subjugation asides, the military usage in a defensive manner as it is for vast majority of cases. You don't see all militaries go all out and fight all the time. Even the US forces have a large peacekeeping contingency.

I think correlating passive military usage to the general train of political thought is different. Sure, it's not a pure ideology but if it's close enough, that's what you'd generally call it. Like how America isn't a total capitalistic society due to its heavily socialistic tax applications and how China isn't a total control state anymore.

[Crimsonbitter]

Originally Posted by Jaka

Not really "selfish", if you put yourself in his shoes and think about it that way.

1)Your mother has been killed.
2)Your father doesn't give a shit.
3)You see links between 1 & 2.
4)Your beloved sister is paralyzed and is blind due to 1).
5)The ruler of the country is harsh, more towards racism (Like the apartheid in South Africa), massacres are happening like its normal.
6)Due to Suzaku's influence, because he was Lelouch's childhood friend, his own family took down his friends country, and his family doesn't care about him. It's kinda obvious you would also want to avenge your friend.

Of course, what Lelouch is saying 1),2),3),4) are the main reasons he decides to be so "selfish" and 5),6) might be the reasons to cover-up, but still 5),6) are still pretty good reasons, its a fair deal, he uses Japan to defeat Brittania and he gets what he wants, also at the same time Japan freed themselves. I see no problem with that. Even so, LASTLY - he got the power of Geass! The power to change everything, who wouldn't do it? Your mother has been murdered, your sister is hurt. Just those two reasons would make me kill to avenge. Wouldn't you guys do too?

This is no reason why you take other people's lives willingly. Im fact it just makes lelouch seem childish and petty. Just for his self gratification, he killed millions of lives. Furthurmore, he never gave a damn about the plight of others to begin with. He did not deserve the geass. If he was really genuine in wanting to save the world, all he needed to do is march into the precious empire and use that pathetic power of his to control the emperor. He could gain all answers he wanted immediately, and even get the emperor to abdicate for him if he is that rotten in the heart. Doing that immediately would be easy since the emperor would not expect him to possess a geass too. Ultimately, his cruel self is just clearly reflected in the whole series. P.S. you dont kill your family for your friends. Blood is thicker than water afterall. That way of thinking will make you a real murderer soon enough

[Kusaja]

Once again, there is plenty of room for disagreement and discussion here.

We don't have many concrete death counts in this show, other than for a handful of specific events like how the first FLEIJA went off and that happened under special circumstances, so arguing that Lelouch was solely responsible for "killing millions" seems like an exaggeration.

Similarly, Lelouch certainly did place himself at the center of his own universe and this did affect his outlook on life. But he did care about the plight of others within that framework, in addition to his own personal goals and desires, to varying degrees. Even the first episode has him rushing off to try and help during a car accident when nobody else is willing to do anything in a situation where it wouldn't necessarily benefit him.

Matters of opinion aside, there are no moral qualifications for being granted Geass as far as we know.

Just going to the Empire and trying to use the power on the Emperor probably wouldn't work. It's one of those "easy" solutions that some people suggest without fully thinking things through first. Not only does the Emperor himself have a Geass, as well as several of his allies in Britannia, he is more likely to suspect Lelouch of having one than the other way around. Lelouch just isn't prepared for all the things that could possibly go wrong with that course of action.

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by Crimsonbitter

This is no reason why you take other people's lives willingly. Im fact it just makes lelouch seem childish and petty. Just for his self gratification, he killed millions of lives. Furthurmore, he never gave a damn about the plight of others to begin with. He did not deserve the geass. If he was really genuine in wanting to save the world, all he needed to do is march into the precious empire and use that pathetic power of his to control the emperor. He could gain all answers he wanted immediately, and even get the emperor to abdicate for him if he is that rotten in the heart. Doing that immediately would be easy since the emperor would not expect him to possess a geass too. Ultimately, his cruel self is just clearly reflected in the whole series. P.S. you dont kill your family for your friends. Blood is thicker than water afterall. That way of thinking will make you a real murderer soon enough

Lelouch is Childish and Petty, THAT's the whole damn point of him finally realizing what he has done and sacrificing himself in the end.

He dies because he is paying for the sins that he committed to get his revenge against his father and destroy the Britiannian system.

Lelouch is an anti-hero, he's not a "good guy" he's a "bad guy" whose actions are ultimately for the good of others, but his motivation is revenge.

This is why Lelouch will mercilessly Geass anybody he chooses to. A good example is the Girl he made scratch "X" marks into the school wall in the first series to see how long Geass would last.

Lelouch is a Narcissist and exhibits Psychopathic behavior (like after the FLEIJAS attack when he loses control after he thinks Nunnally is dead).

The only reaseon CC gives Lelouch Geass that we know of, is because she agrees with his reason for living and they make a contract for her to get what she truly desires in exchange for granting him Geass.

There is no morality involved in CC's decision to grant Lelouch that power since it is clear she views Geass as a curse not a blessing.

Ultimately Lelouch grows and changes from S1 to R2 and matures as a character.

[Mocc17]

Suzaku Kururugi original canon Ideologies and many base philosophy's can be compared to this

That being if you didn't go thru the right channels or path to commence change then the differences you've brought about will be useless as it would be made bad if not worse than it was originally

This is comparable to one wanting to clean a dirty foot with a rag and water the foot being society and the dirt being the system in place and finally the water being what changes it(the rag being of course what/who changes society) I could elaborate further but that's the basic outline

So what compares this to his ideologies would be one that's cleaning the foot would be using water that's worse or would put the foot in a similarly bad shape as before or even worse because it would cause what could be viewed as undue harm to the foot(society) so even if you cleaned the foot it would still be so dirty to be viewed as an injustice to the foot and something that is to be avoided so what he wants which is to truly cleanse the foot you would need to purify the water as the only way for the process to logically proceed with any amount of true success

To sum it up with true simplicity its cleaning a foot with water that's full of shit.
This of course opens up many rational counter arguments and better ways to fix the problem but this is to give a relatively realistic comparison to the ideology.

[Mocc17]

Originally Posted by Crimsonbitter

This is no reason why you take other people's lives willingly. Im fact it just makes lelouch seem childish and petty. Just for his self gratification, he killed millions of lives. Furthurmore, he never gave a damn about the plight of others to begin with. He did not deserve the geass. If he was really genuine in wanting to save the world, all he needed to do is march into the precious empire and use that pathetic power of his to control the emperor. He could gain all answers he wanted immediately, and even get the emperor to abdicate for him if he is that rotten in the heart. Doing that immediately would be easy since the emperor would not expect him to possess a geass too. Ultimately, his cruel self is just clearly reflected in the whole series. P.S. you dont kill your family for your friends. Blood is thicker than water afterall. That way of thinking will make you a real murderer soon enough

Did you finish the series? It's rather naive to think you can march up to the leader of an empire. Also the Emperor knew Lelouch possessed a Geass. Nothing else you said deserves a response

[azul120]

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

Lelouch is Childish and Petty, THAT's the whole damn point of him finally realizing what he has done and sacrificing himself in the end.

He dies because he is paying for the sins that he committed to get his revenge against his father and destroy the Britiannian system.

Lelouch is an anti-hero, he's not a "good guy" he's a "bad guy" whose actions are ultimately for the good of others, but his motivation is revenge.

This is why Lelouch will mercilessly Geass anybody he chooses to. A good example is the Girl he made scratch "X" marks into the school wall in the first series to see how long Geass would last.

Lelouch is a Narcissist and exhibits Psychopathic behavior (like after the FLEIJAS attack when he loses control after he thinks Nunnally is dead).

The only reaseon CC gives Lelouch Geass that we know of, is because she agrees with his reason for living and they make a contract for her to get what she truly desires in exchange for granting him Geass.

There is no morality involved in CC's decision to grant Lelouch that power since it is clear she views Geass as a curse not a blessing.

Ultimately Lelouch grows and changes from S1 to R2 and matures as a character.

I know it's been well over a year since your post, but you of all people I thought would have never said such. The Zero Requiem was more a selfish death wish. His rebellion was actually less death laden, and led the way to the creation of the UFN. It's basically Schneizel taking liberties with the truth and the sheer dumb misfortune of Ohgi falling for it hook line and sinker and leading the majority of the Black Knights that led to things going south.

Besides, if you want to indict Lelouch, there are so many worse people to take with him who lived on instead.

[Kusaja]

To quote the immortal words of Quattro Bajeena...



There was more than one reason for Zero Requiem. It had a selfish element but also other motivations.

Given that this has also been discussed many times before, I won't repeat myself.

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by azul120

I know it's been well over a year since your post, but you of all people I thought would have never said such. The Zero Requiem was more a selfish death wish. His rebellion was actually less death laden, and led the way to the creation of the UFN. It's basically Schneizel taking liberties with the truth and the sheer dumb misfortune of Ohgi falling for it hook line and sinker and leading the majority of the Black Knights that led to things going south.

Besides, if you want to indict Lelouch, there are so many worse people to take with him who lived on instead.

Why not?
Lelouch's character went from selfish to selfless during the course of two seasons of Code Geass.
While the Zero Requiem was badly written in my opinion, the idea was a good one. It just was not executed very well from the literary standpoint. Back in 2014 I was taking a creative writing class via Udemy (I've taken many) and part of that class was learning about Donald Murray's book "Write to Learn" which explains plot, character development, situational writing, etc. in detail.
Code Geass' main protagonist is not a hero, he's an anti-hero, so I stand by what I said. The viewer is not supposed to be upset when Lelouch kills himself. We are supposed to identify with his growth and his final self realization about his sins being atoned for in his death.
Many Code Geass fans focus on the ridiculous "his death created peace in the world" nonsense when it is supposed to be more personal than that. Yes, his sacrifice creates a temporary peace that the people in that story can start over from, but it in-and-of itself does not create a lasting peace.
For Lelouch, the Zero Requiem (bad as it was written) is his penance for all the evil he did, especially his selfish actions towards Eufie.
Suzaku also pays for his crimes of selfishness by having to wear the Zero mask for the rest of his life and take on the role of a persona he despised.
It is clear that we as viewers are supposed to view Lelouch and Suzaku as heroes at the END of the entire series because they make amends for what they did in the rest of the two seasons by making very harsh sacrifices.

The biggest problem with the story of Code Geass is that there were too many writers moving in different directions. Having read the "Renya of the Darkness" and seen just how different Taniguichi's vision for this show was from Okouchi's I gave up on the franchise.
The nature of Geass itself is completely different between those two writers. For Taniguichi it is far more magical than it is portrayed as being by Okouchi. There are no cursed Geass users in the series, nor are there the same types of knightmares (one is a mutant human the other a mecha).
I am not impressed with the Akito Gaiden. I won't say it sucks (because it doesn't) but I will say that it is boring even if it does look nice, and have excellent dialogue, mecha, and was beautifully done visually. It's the story itself that is mediocre to me (does not mean it is bad, it just means it seems irrelevant to the whole overarching events of Code Geass). It lacks the tension, emotion and morality issues we see in the original season one. R2 started to move away from that with some of the changes that were made (as discussed in one of the Newtypes from the 2009 period).

That said, I just don't have the stamina to argue about Code Geass anymore since I do not care about it.

[Kusaja]

For the sake of other readers, I will point to the following statement Taniguchi made about Renya:

Taniguchi: I thought I’d like to adopt the characteristics of a positive shounen manga to Code Geass. Also, I wanted to make a story that happens in ancient times. When the country and its power are rising at a time when science and technology haven’t developed yet.(...) While Lelouch was a main character who rebelled with the power of his intelligence, Renya is a main character who fights for justice with his body.

The rest of the context is available right here.

This doesn't necessarily mean that Taniguchi's intentions for the original show were different from Okouchi's. Just that Renya of the Darkness was meant to be very different from Lelouch of the Rebellion and closer to a regular shounen manga. It does suggest, however, that Taniguchi feels the remote past of the Code Geass world could have easily been more fantastical than technological, which is why there are a bunch of strange abilities that didn't appear in the original TV series. As he presented things, the mutant Knightmares (or Nightmares) might have been a distant inspiration for naming the mechanical suits. Like there are rockets and weapons in reality that were named after mythological or fantastical creatures.

Years afterwards (2013/2014), Taniguchi has actually has written a couple of short picture dramas by himself which have no magical elements. They have not been officially translated to date, but may (or may not) appear in U.S. re-releases.

-Stage 0.97, which is a rather serious exam of Lelouch's thoughts before the first episode.
-Turn 12.06, which is a more lighthearted affair set around the time of Milly's graduation.

I do think that the moral perspectives of the TV series, the diferent manga and the OVA itself are not exactly the same, but many of them still provide a source of conflict. The show put Zero's ideas up against Suzaku's, while Oz the Reflection (now being translated) contrasts the methods of Merrybell, Oldrin and Orpheus Zevon. Akito placed less emphasis on it, at least during the early episodes, but towards the end it is possible to identify moral contrasts between Leila and the EU leadership, Akito vs. Shin, and arguably even Leila vs. Shin once they actually met. But it is true that the narrative focus isn't really trying create a huge ethical discussion. For its part, there have also been critics of the way the TV series inherently favored Lelouch over Suzaku.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

Why not?
Lelouch's character went from selfish to selfless during the course of two seasons of Code Geass.
While the Zero Requiem was badly written in my opinion, the idea was a good one. It just was not executed very well from the literary standpoint. Back in 2014 I was taking a creative writing class via Udemy (I've taken many) and part of that class was learning about Donald Murray's book "Write to Learn" which explains plot, character development, situational writing, etc. in detail.
Code Geass' main protagonist is not a hero, he's an anti-hero, so I stand by what I said. The viewer is not supposed to be upset when Lelouch kills himself. We are supposed to identify with his growth and his final self realization about his sins being atoned for in his death.
Many Code Geass fans focus on the ridiculous "his death created peace in the world" nonsense when it is supposed to be more personal than that. Yes, his sacrifice creates a temporary peace that the people in that story can start over from, but it in-and-of itself does not create a lasting peace.
For Lelouch, the Zero Requiem (bad as it was written) is his penance for all the evil he did, especially his selfish actions towards Eufie.
Suzaku also pays for his crimes of selfishness by having to wear the Zero mask for the rest of his life and take on the role of a persona he despised.
It is clear that we as viewers are supposed to view Lelouch and Suzaku as heroes at the END of the entire series because they make amends for what they did in the rest of the two seasons by making very harsh sacrifices.

The biggest problem with the story of Code Geass is that there were too many writers moving in different directions. Having read the "Renya of the Darkness" and seen just how different Taniguichi's vision for this show was from Okouchi's I gave up on the franchise.
The nature of Geass itself is completely different between those two writers. For Taniguichi it is far more magical than it is portrayed as being by Okouchi. There are no cursed Geass users in the series, nor are there the same types of knightmares (one is a mutant human the other a mecha).
I am not impressed with the Akito Gaiden. I won't say it sucks (because it doesn't) but I will say that it is boring even if it does look nice, and have excellent dialogue, mecha, and was beautifully done visually. It's the story itself that is mediocre to me (does not mean it is bad, it just means it seems irrelevant to the whole overarching events of Code Geass). It lacks the tension, emotion and morality issues we see in the original season one. R2 started to move away from that with some of the changes that were made (as discussed in one of the Newtypes from the 2009 period).

That said, I just don't have the stamina to argue about Code Geass anymore since I do not care about it.

The thing is, Lelouch had been arguably more selfish and definitely more destructive during the Zero Requiem.

If the goal was to create a pyrrhic victory befitting of someone who went to extremes, they could have done the following:

1) Nunnally is either killed or put into a coma
2) Lelouch ends up taking C. C.'s code and is forced to live behind the mask of Zero, having to live with the task of keeping the peace

And of course, there were people who were MORE selfish and destructive who lived instead.

[Key Board]

I think Okouchi is inherently cynical of democracy.
Or rather he doesn't think that people can be trusted to think for themselves.
Thus, deception is needed. And sometimes, new deceptions is needed to break previous ones.

It's seems to be a common theme in Okouchi penned stories.

[relentlessflame]

I've deleted a series of posts from this thread.

It's completely fine to continue discussing this topic now if you wish.

It's not fine to derail this thread with meta topics about the franchise/show/forum being "dead" or whatever else. If you've moved on from this show, move on and stop posting. If you want to keep discussing this show, you're free to do so.

[Zero Gravity]

Thank you.

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by Key Board

I think Okouchi is inherently cynical of democracy.
Or rather he doesn't think that people can be trusted to think for themselves.
Thus, deception is needed. And sometimes, new deceptions is needed to break previous ones.

It's seems to be a common theme in Okouchi penned stories.

I agree. That does appear to be a theme in his stories, even Wolf's Rain, Space Dandy, RahXephon, and Eureka Seven touch on that cynicism in my opinion.

Originally Posted by azul120

The thing is, Lelouch had been arguably more selfish and definitely more destructive during the Zero Requiem.

If the goal was to create a pyrrhic victory befitting of someone who went to extremes, they could have done the following:

1) Nunnally is either killed or put into a coma
2) Lelouch ends up taking C. C.'s code and is forced to live behind the mask of Zero, having to live with the task of keeping the peace

And of course, there were people who were MORE selfish and destructive who lived instead.

I agree that during the Zilcho Retardium the morality of the story took a nose dive into idiocy with the expansion of Lelouch's selfishness and destructive tendencies, but that was more for effect than anything else. The writers were obviously trying to create drama in an already drama-thick storyline so they had to amp up both of those aspects of Lelouch to pull it off.
I said it here years ago that I thought it was dumb and I still think it was a cheap way to try and wrap up R2. It could have had the same ending but executed much...much better.
They didn't need to turn him into a Narcissistic-Psychopath with delusions of grandeur, but they did (I don't know if it was Okouchi or Taniguichi or a combination of both) and the result was the Zero Requiem which you and I both think was excessive and rather stupid.
When Crimsonbitter made the comment about Lelouch being childish and petty back in 2014, I was pointing out that he was that way in S1 and he did mature at the start of R2, only to go back to being childish and immature (to the extreme) in the Zero Requiem. So the character evolves, then regresses back to what he was in S1. I assume that is due to the fact that Okouchi and Taniguichi had already wrote the Zero Requiem before they finished R2. They knew where they wanted the story to go, but R2 as a whole didn't compliment that story very well in my opinion.
Crimsonbitter made some excellent points about the weaknesses in the storyline overall in R2, and certainly I agree with much of his statement. Though I disagree about Lelouch not deserving the Geass. I think that since it was written into the story as a curse, and thus a negative thing, Lelouch did deserve it. He is an anti-hero after all and thus his power should be both a blessing and a curse. That part of the story was done quite well and contributed to the selfishness of Lelouch's character. The manner in which he abuses the Geass (and causes Euphie's death by accident) was a great way of showing just how childish Lelouch was. He didn't consider the dangers of his power until after that event (which is how he started to grow). Of course, that was S1. R2 deviates from that when he goes on a Geass-binge and enslaves his whole family, most of the Britainnian forces, and concocts the Zilcho Retardium in which he murders unknown numbers of innocent people so he can bring peace and a new order to the world...which sounds an awful lot like the morality of a German dictator from the 1930s to me.

I hope that answers your inquiry azul120.