Morality in Code Geass? Do the ends justify the means?

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

Suzaku knew next to nothing about Geass and it wouldn't have mattered to him either way. The fact was that Lelouch did it. I don't think Suzaku would have cared if Lelouch was sorry about it or not.

well, he always could have decided to not kill Lelouch too, done what Nunnally or Cornelia or C.C. did and actually believe Lelouch could never willingly cause something like that.

But, Suzaku choose the destroy Lulu path. Not particularly wrong...just rather tragic. ;_;

[Dann of Thursday]

Well, what exactly did Cornelia think? She didn't seem as angry as I thought she would be, though that could be attributed to her injuries and the fact that she could understand if it was for Nunnally. I am still rather curious as to where she will stand with things.

Well, he was caught up in anger and had that Boku side of him die.

What sort of person is Lelouch at his very core though?

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

Well, what exactly did Cornelia think? She didn't seem as angry as I thought she would be, though that could be attributed to her injuries and the fact that she could understand if it was for Nunnally. I am still rather curious as to where she will stand with things.

Well, he was caught up in anger and had that Boku side of him die.

What sort of person is Lelouch at his very core though?

go watch C.C.'s speech at the end of 25.

Lelouch is just a good kid who wants his sister to be happy, and his friends to be happy, and people in general to be happy. But he understands the nature of things too well, and sees too far, so the only way he can assure some of these things is through destroying Britannia, and having to do some very terrible things to get there.

He sees the reality of the world, but he refuses to turn away from it, and he refuses to give up an inch of his desire for Nunnally to have the freedom to be happy.

[Dann of Thursday]

I always forget that speech. I suppose her words to him before the kiss was advice to help him keep going and believing in his wish.

I wonder if we'll ever get to see what people like C.C. and Kallen are like at their core, though Kallen seems like the only one we'd really get to figure out.

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

I always forget that speech. I suppose her words to him before the kiss was advice to help him keep going and believing in his wish.

I wonder if we'll ever get to see what people like C.C. and Kallen are like at their core, though Kallen seems like the only one we'd really get to figure out.

Kallen at her core is more or less pointed out in 13 when she explains why she kills people: She's a freedom fighter, but she hates that she has to kill just to obtain something as simple as that.

You can still see it in the latest opening: crying while she fries an enemy pilot from the inside out.


C.C. on a whole strikes me to be more or less the same kind of person as Lelouch, especially from the Mao material. Someone with more or less selfless intentions whose actions cause some really terrible consequences to happen despite not desiring anything at all like that outcome.

but of course without knowing what her motivation is, her "wish", it's hard to be sure. >_<

[Dann of Thursday]

I suppose that is a good summary of Kallen. Her talk on the island gave that sort of impression too when I think about it. She could always be crying for a different reason, thought the one you pointed out is the most likely.

That would generally be my impression of C.C. as well though she has had a lot of who she is taken away from her by time and pain.

That wish is a problem though since it could be anything.

[Blue_Mercy]

http://searchofno9.wordpress.com/200...ng-propaganda/

I brought this up awhile ago, but now that somebody has decided to blog on it. I think it's worth mentioning again.

With Britannia being demonstrated as America by the OP, and Babel tower looking eerily similar to 9/11. I have a hard time believing or I should say I don't believe that there is no reference to Britannia being thought of as the U.S.A.

What message is trying to be sent? Speaking out against propoganda, racism, fascism? All of the above?

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Blue_Mercy

http://searchofno9.wordpress.com/200...ng-propaganda/

I brought this up awhile ago, but now that somebody has decided to blog on it. I think it's worth mentioning again.

With Britannia being demonstrated as America by the OP, and Babel tower looking eerily similar to 9/11. I have a hard time believing or I should say I don't believe that there is no reference to Britannia being thought of as the U.S.A.

What message is trying to be sent? Speaking out against propoganda, racism, fascism? All of the above?

The Babel tower is built as a place of Sin, as what the Biblical reference mentioned. That's not going to change just because you might think America is the center of the universe.

As a non-American, I never consider Britannia to resemble America. And it has been my personal opinion that only those who truly look down on their own country would compared it to Britannia.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

The message of the show is that if you want to change or get something you have to get up and do it yourself. It has nothing to do with the americans (The americans got their butts handed to them in this show, they don't even exist).

I remember an interview where the director was angry at the apathy in today's youths and how they just sit at home and do nothing and let things go as they will be.

[Kusaja]

Originally Posted by Blue_Mercy

With Britannia being demonstrated as America by the OP, and Babel tower looking eerily similar to 9/11.

Plenty of buildings have been intentionally blown up in reality and in fiction without being "eerily similar to 9/11".

Say, did an airplane crash into the Tower of Babel or something? Not that I noticed.

The comparison doesn't really work, unless you want to narrow it down to a point the whole thing fits a hundred different situations of buildings blowing up.

I have a hard time believing or I should say I don't believe that there is no reference to Britannia being thought of as the U.S.A.

What message is trying to be sent? Speaking out against propoganda, racism, fascism? All of the above?

Last time I checked, the only thing the two have in common is one part of their territory and history, and even that requires forgetting the rest of it.

[Blue_Mercy]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

The Babel tower is built as a place of Sin, as what the Biblical reference mentioned. That's not going to change just because you might think America is the center of the universe.

As a non-American, I never consider Britannia to resemble America. And it has been my personal opinion that only those who truly look down on their own country would compared it to Britannia.

Never did I say it was right, nor did I say that I thought America was the center of the universe. It's turning a blind eye to the show if you say that the Britannian homeland isn't what the U.S.A would be. I don't put words in your mouth, don't put them in mine.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Blue_Mercy

Never did I say it was right, nor did I say that I thought America was the center of the universe. It's turning a blind eye to the show if you say that the Britannian homeland isn't what the U.S.A would be. I don't put words in your mouth, don't put them in mine.

So does that mean Code Geass is claiming modern China is run by a group of Eunuchs?

Britannian homeland is still Britain. That's why they are still fighting a war in Europe trying to kick the constitution-based governments out. It is hinted that the Britannian capital is New York, and that there is almost nothing American about any part of Britannian society.

If America is being inferred, Sunrise would have done a better job making the insertion. And about the tower... So WHAT? An exact same scenario happened last season, when Lulu blew up a hoteltower after civilians were evacuated. Where were your complaints when that happened?

[Blue_Mercy]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

So does that mean Code Geass is claiming modern China is run by a group of Eunuchs?

Yeah, just like I think the Emperess is a little girl. I'm talking about inferences that are drawn. You know those things where you take a similar situation and draw your own conclusion.

And about the tower... So WHAT?

I'll have to mark that in a persuasive arguments column.

An exact same scenario happened last season, when Lulu blew up a hoteltower after civilians were evacuated. Where were your complaints when that happened?

You keep track of my posts? Are you my internet stalker? j/k

Anyway in response to your post, how can you compare an evacuated hotel to a tower with people still inside? Once again I'm talking about inferences and the idea that maybe Taniguchi is trying to send a message, not that I think he is trying to openly slam America, but that the ideas in the show are trying to relate to events today.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

He is sending a message which I already explained.

If anyone still has that age old link to the interview then feel free to post it.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Blue_Mercy

Anyway in response to your post, how can you compare an evacuated hotel to a tower with people still inside? Once again I'm talking about inferences and the idea that maybe Taniguchi is trying to send a message, not that I think he is trying to openly slam America, but that the ideas in the show are trying to relate to events today.

Yes, there is a message in Code Geass, but it isn't a message about America because Code Geass is made for the Japanese. And the Japanese don't really care about the US as much as it does its own internal politics.

Code Geass is trying to relate to the issue of Imperial power, of military brainwashing, and most importantly the value of freedom vs law. These things are more relevant to a Japanese than most things the US does, because frankly with only the JSDF, Japan has no means to participate in the War on Terror anyway. It wasn't so long ago that Japan was under control of the military elite, and it is bearing the consequences to this day. Compared to that, the Twin-towers is far less meaningful.

[JMvS]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

These things are more relevant to a Japanese than most things the US does, because frankly with only the JSDF, Japan has no means to participate in the War on Terror anyway.

Budget-wise, JSDF is the second army in the world, but being solely a Self-Defense Force, they barely have any projection power as military world power like the U.K or France retain.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by JMvS

Budget-wise, JSDF is the second army in the world, but being solely a Self-Defense Force, they barely have any projection power as military world power like the U.K or France retain.

That's what I mean. They can't do anything at all not because they can't, but because they aren't allowed to.

[JMvS]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

That's what I mean. They can't do anything at all not because they can't, but because they aren't allowed to.

One important thing is that it's now changing and is a noticeable debate subject among japanese opinion and politics.

Since 1992, a law allowed participation in peacekeeping missions, and since 2004 they are present in Iraq for reconstruction, but "unarmed" and under the protection of other country's troops: the latter deployment is considered illegal by part of the opinion.

Aside from CG, questions about the role of JSDF has quite develloped these past few years in both anime and manga.

What concern me about this evolution, is that my country faced a quite similar controversy recently: I live in Switzerland, a country emphasizing neutrality and whose militia army has been dedicated to sole self defense for about 400 years.

We are not part of NATO and until recently weren't part of UN, so our only foreign military deployment was our only general sitting in an office in the DMZ between the two Koreas.
But after the end of the Kosovo War in 1999, our politics decided to deploy the Swisscoy: a rebuilding-aid volunteers contingent.
This triggered a significative controvery in our country, as our Constitution forbide armed troops deployment abroad. So there were considerable debates between those who criticized the Swisscoy idea, the deployment of unarmed swiss citizens in a conflict zone and the supporters of international cooperation.
The conclusion was something similar to the paradox of JSDF deployed in Iraq: soldiers tagged unarmed altough carrying their personal weapon, and protected by other country's armed (with armed vehicles thus) troops.

Hopefully I will never be asked to go, as these missions are only for volunteers

[SuperKnuckles]

Japan also seems to fashion itself after relative pacifism so I don't think they really have the means otherwise in terms of their overall international philosophy. Even if they truly want to militarize again, I think that might create a lot of problems internationally. Then again, JSDF and the relative ruse of being a defense only force is working. For now anyway.

Also, such pacifism is probably their subconscious (or may as well be fully intentional) acknowledgment that their people can't handle major wars and they made quite a share of international trouble by it.

Really, in the Geass world, I don't think that kind of self-restriction really carries over unless they did the whole 'keep Korea under lock and key for 50 years' thing.

[JMvS]

Originally Posted by SuperKnuckles

Japan also seems to fashion itself after relative pacifism so I don't think they really have the means otherwise in terms of their overall international philosophy.

Pacifism is here a key world: the -ism connotes a will of promoting peace abroad, not only in conferences, but also by meddling in conflicts, either active or passive, generally using military power.
The thing I think japanese people are attached is more like neutrality, but it seems that, like in my country, some politicians are eagering to play a role in The Great Game of international politics, thus discarding the previous neutrality their country have maintained.

Thus there is a pressure in neutral countries who had purely defense oriented armies during the Cold War to develop projection forces for such peace promoting operations.