Higurashi Episode 21 Discussion / Poll

[GundamZZ]

Originally Posted by Symmetry

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember that in one of the arcs the found out that the body they thought was Takano had to actually be someone else, since it was killed *before* the festival. I think, since there was a burned corpse found in every scenario, that it was equally not her in every scenario and that she doesn't actually die in any of them. All of which makes me really, really suspicious of her even forgetting about when she picked up Keichi in Tatarigorashi.

Correct

What about the swamp gas? Thats a hard one. The "Rika's disembowlment angers Oyashiro-sama" theory does have a certain appeal, but I've decided I'm going to go for rational explanations until I'm absolutly forced to fall back on the supernatural.

No survivors actually can testify that gas poisoning actually happened. The access to the village is blocked, though Rika's death is the trigger for all these different arcs.

So what I'm left with is that either someone was killed in Tatarigorashi but not in Watanagashi - like the doctor - who was doing something to prevent the disaster or someone was killed in Watanagashi but not in Tatarigorashi - like Onibaba - who somehow caused the disaster. Hmmm...

The director doesn't know his superior's plan, though he's involved with someone's disappearance.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Symmetry

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember that in one of the arcs the found out that the body they thought was Takano had to actually be someone else, since it was killed *before* the festival. I think, since there was a burned corpse found in every scenario, that it was equally not her in every scenario and that she doesn't actually die in any of them. All of which makes me really, really suspicious of her even forgetting about when she picked up Keichi in Tatarigorashi.

You are right that at the end of Watanagashi-hen Ooishi said that the body they thought was Takano had actually been dead before the festival. However, you are wrong about finding a burnt corpse in every scenario. Takano only went missing in Onikakushi-hen, as you own list says.

Originally Posted by Symmetry

What about the swamp gas? Thats a hard one. The "Rika's disembowlment angers Oyashiro-sama" theory does have a certain appeal, but I've decided I'm going to go for rational explanations until I'm absolutly forced to fall back on the supernatural.

One theory is that in any scenario where they did up a mysterious pipe in the middle of the woods it will emit a could of toxic gas and kill everyone, but I don't see any reason to believe that's what happened in Himatsubushi.

So what I'm left with is that either someone was killed in Tatarigorashi but not in Watanagashi - like the doctor - who was doing something to prevent the disaster or someone was killed in Watanagashi but not in Tatarigorashi - like Onibaba - who somehow caused the disaster. Hmmm...

I lean towards the supernatural explanation. There does seem to be a correlation with Rika's disembowlment and the swamp gas event. I also think her suicide in Meakashi-hen/Watanagashi-hen may have something to do with why it didn't happen in those arcs.

Whoa! Just realized that in Himatsubushi-hen Ooishi said that Rika was drugged before she was brought to the temple and Watanagashi'ed! Dang, this is a huge connection! Was I the first to notice? It fits so well... Once Rika was drugged in Meakashi-hen, she somehow knew or thought (from memory of other arcs?) that the direction of the scenario was going towards her being Watanagashi'ed and Hinamizawa being gassed. She didn't fear the pain of torture- she chose suicide as the only way to protect everyone.

Originally Posted by Symmetry

It occurs to me it might have something to do with the weather too. I seem to recall from Tatarigoroshi and one of the Himatsubushi TIPS that there had been a long spell of dryness followed by sudden rain before the poison gas.

The whether is definately an important hint. I found the timing of the storm and rain in episode 3 of Tatarigoroshi-hen to be particularly suspicious.

[Alu]

Originally Posted by Symmetry

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember that in one of the arcs the found out that the body they thought was Takano had to actually be someone else, since it was killed *before* the festival.

This was a good observation indeed, however the body was identified as beeing that of Takano Miyo-san.

*Taken from episode 8*
(20:55 - 21:19)

Oishi : " Do you remember how Takano Miyo-san died ? "
Keiichi : " Huh ? Yeah... I heard she was burned dead. "
Oishi : " After the autopsy, it seems that the body was found 24 hours after she died.
In other words, on the night you guys sneaked into the festival storehouse...
Takano-san was already dead. "

Also.., on the TIPS #113 it lists Takano-san as beeing part of the death list.., strangled to death and later burned.
It seems however.., 24 hours before the set time she died

On Onikakushi-hen Takano-san's status is " Missing ", currently no further information is given to us regarding it.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Alu

This was a good observation indeed, however the body was identified as beeing that of Takano Miyo-san.

Indeed. Although there are many people who believe that Takano may have altered her dental records to make it look like someone else's burnt body is hers.

Another thing, I seem to remember one of the game players saying that in the game when K1 cursed Takano to die on that fateful night in Tatarigoroshi-hen that he specifically cursed her to burn. (Correct me if I am wrong of course)

[Matrim]

The body was not Takano's, I think. Why would anyone want to burn the body if it was hers? And how do you explain her being "a walking dead" if we assume she did not fake her death? Don't tell me Oyashiro-sama cannot change the state of a dead body to fool the police that Takano had died later.
And she is being portrayed as much more important "player" in the mystery, I don't think her role is that of a mere victim. But even if she was indeed killed the question is why.

[Alu]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Indeed. Although there are many people who believe that Takano may have altered her dental records to make it look like someone else's burnt body is hers.

This is a great possibility yes.., it would definitly explain why the body they found had been dead 24 hours prior to when (possibily) the real Takano Miyon should have been discovered.
And also why she was still alive during the festival night

However.., the current information we are given too.., just states that the burned body they found, despite the 24 hour death diference, was identified as that of beeing Takano Miyo-san's.., hence.. we can currently only speculate if she was in fact dead.., or that she found a scapegoat to ilude everyone into thinking she died.

But just on a personal note.., yes.. , I too feel that its very possible for her to have faked her death.
Specialy since her status on Onikakushi-hen is " missing ".

So the possibility, this despite beeing diferent arcs.., they always end up complementing each other.., hence.., she on Onikakushi-hen might not have required to use the scapegoat; or as far as we know.. ^^

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Another thing, I seem to remember one of the game players saying that in the game when K1 cursed Takano to die on that fateful night in Tatarigoroshi-hen that he specifically cursed her to burn. (Correct me if I am wrong of course)

*From episode 12*
(4:17 - 4:24)
Keiichi : " If she saw me, then I should have killed her. "
" Shit... "
" Go die by Oyashiro-sama's curse! "

If there are any references to Keiichi having wished Takano to die burned.., I don't belive we saw them in the Anime..
Either way.., most of what I say are my speculations and things taken from the episodes so.., only someone who has played the game can answer you properly

[Wanderer]

There's also the idea that she is both a villian and a victim. It has happned before with the missing killer from the damn manager murderer and with Satoshi and maybe even with K1 in Tatarigoroshi-hen.

Anyway, what if Takano actually unwillingly disappears in all three arcs? It is just that in Tatarigoroshi-hen and Watanagashi-hen she disappears after setting up the double. Sure, this idea is more or less just a guess, but it would lock Tomitake and Takano as the pair of set victims for 1983... One disappears and one dies.

Just an idea. Really, we know so very little about Takano's role in things.

[LostBlue]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Another thing, I seem to remember one of the game players saying that in the game when K1 cursed Takano to die on that fateful night in Tatarigoroshi-hen that he specifically cursed her to burn. (Correct me if I am wrong of course)

Yes, that is correct.

Tatarigoroshi Hen (the Sound Novels)

Keiichi's Wish list

1. Kill Hojou Teppei (asks Mion) - the next day Keiichi goes off and kills him
2. Burn in hell Takano - Takano's corpse was found burnt the next day
3. Go away Oishi - Oishi and his partner Kuma went missing during their investigation the following day ( TIP 62 )
4. Die Dr. Irie - Dr. Irie commits suicide by overdosing the following day
5. This village should disappear - Gas Disaster happens the following day with Keiichi being the only survivor regardless of the fact that it is believed that he was unconscious at origin of the gasses. Keiichi was unconscious for a day and a half ( See TIP 67 ).
6. Interviewer should drown - goes missing years later when his boat capsizes. ( TIP 67 )

Victim List TIP 66

[FubaredByAnime]

After finishing up this arc, my investigative juices started flowing again, so here are some of my thoughts:

- Rika in Himatsubushi-hen specifically states that murders will be committed in the next few years.
- If what LostBlue is correct and the Sonozaki's do not have any power, then someone else is responsible for the murders IF we believe Rika.
- It's hinted in the TIPS that during Himatsubushi-hen, Oryou Sonozaki was aware of the kidnapping. She had Mion make a phone call. At some point afterwards in the anime, Oishi received the wallet hinting to the location of the child. It's possible that Oryou was involved with the police tip. But if so, it would not make sense for a leader of a group to betray her own people. Which means that:

1) There's another group involved behind the scenes.
2) The Sonozaki's are aware of their existence, but don't mind muddling in their affairs.
3) Oishi acknowledges their abilities as trained professionals.

My thoughts: It's either another group in the Gosanke, most likely the Kimiyoshi's who wield a hidden power behind the Sonozaki's or some weird government organization probably hiding some secret in Hinamizawa.

Now I was about to write reasons describing each possibilities, for and against, but after weighing the options, I've decided to go for the government. I just like those X-Files stories (before they jumped the shark and decided Mulder and Scully making out was more important then stopping the government).

And for those of you who don't believe that there's a group of people behind this, then let me ask: Who were those guys in bonked Keichi on the head in Onikakushi-hen?

[Matrim]

But if so, it would not make sense for a leader of a group to betray her own people.

Correct me if I am wrong but hadn't the deal with the minister already been struck? I guess the police was supposed to find the kid but with the kidnappers already gone. But the info from Irie led to the encounter between the kidnappers and the police. Furthermore, assuming the Sonozakis are not involved in the murders that does not mean thay have no power and influence at all. If there is some group of government agents wouldn't they be able to get rid of the Sonozakis? If the Sonozakis are their smokescreen that still doesn't explain leaking out secrets to them (like the kidnapping of the kid). And a government agency kidnapping the child of a government official doesn't sound too bloody likely except in cheap thrillers, IMO. If they wanted the dam buiding to be halted wouldn't they do it by turning to whoever in power is responisble for this secret group's existence and tell him to pull some strings in Tokyo?
Anyway, "the government did it" theory is a bit too trivial for my taste, so I irrationally deny it.

And for those of you who don't believe that there's a group of people behind this, then let me ask: Who were those guys in bonked Keichi on the head in Onikakushi-hen?

Products of his imagination. Or people hunting a dangerous lunatic, namely Keiichi.

[chrno_the_sinner]

Using the TIPS, it's relatively easy to say that the Sonozaki family organized the kidnapping. When the dam project was put on indefinite hiatus in Himatubushi, Oryou decided it was time for the child to be "found". Remember, the Sonozaki family also somewhat doubles as a yakuza organization.

As for the men who knocked out Keiichi, I think it's most likely Sonozaki goons, because the same outfits were worn by the men who kidnapped the kid in the beginning of Himatsubushi.

[GundamZZ]

Originally Posted by Matrim

Correct me if I am wrong but hadn't the deal with the minister already been struck? I guess the police was supposed to find the kid but with the kidnappers already gone. But the info from Irie led to the encounter between the kidnappers and the police.

Let's say the minister himself is not innocent, either. He knows something about the village, and exposing it will bring his downfall.

Furthermore, assuming the Sonozakis are not involved in the murders that does not mean thay have no power and influence at all. If there is some group of government agents wouldn't they be able to get rid of the Sonozakis? If the Sonozakis are their smokescreen that still doesn't explain leaking out secrets to them (like the kidnapping of the kid).

Didn't Mion tell Sion that the villagers take any help? The main concern of villagers are to save their village. They don't care who's behind it.

If they wanted the dam buiding to be halted wouldn't they do it by turning to whoever in power is responisble for this secret group's existence and tell him to pull some strings in Tokyo?

Not all interest groups are equal.

It can also be the loophole of the story. Another loophole is Rika's "prophecy". She can "remember" the future yet she she can't avoid it. It's the example of 御都合主義

[LostBlue]

Originally Posted by chrno_the_sinner

Using the TIPS, it's relatively easy to say that the Sonozaki family organized the kidnapping. When the dam project was put on indefinite hiatus in Himatubushi, Oryou decided it was time for the child to be "found". Remember, the Sonozaki family also somewhat doubles as a yakuza organization.

As for the men who knocked out Keiichi, I think it's most likely Sonozaki goons, because the same outfits were worn by the men who kidnapped the kid in the beginning of Himatsubushi.

Looks at the TIPS and then back at POST 83

[Matrim]

Let's say the minister himself is not innocent, either. He knows something about the village, and exposing it will bring his downfall.

Do you know that or you are just guessing? Anyway, if that's true why was the kid kidnapped in the first place if simple blackmail would do?

The main concern of villagers are to save their village. They don't care who's behind it.

Sure, but that does not really explain Onibaba knowing about the kidnapped child. Secret government group or agency or whatever doesn't seem to me like something Oryou would trust and vice versa. Common goal is a good unifying factort but to convince Oryou about ihe existence of this goal wouldn't these hyphotetical government people spill the beans about the secret they are trying to protect?

[GundamZZ]

They are all been decided.

The story's weakness.

[Himeka]

I've tried to read most of the posts in this thread to avoid posting the same things others did, so I apologize if I missed some stuff...

I know some people have been babbling about Satoshi being alive or not..... but wasn't it him at the beginning of the Tatarigoroshi chapter (episode 9) some old people found in the water? It looked like him to me.

I have a lot of other things to ask, but they're about other chapters so I guess it'll be irrelevant to this thread (Actually, I'm planning to play the 'game', I'm just waiting until the tv series ends so it won't spoil too much for me. So I guess it's true they're skipping the last two chapters? And I heard everything was explained in the Minagoroshi chapter.... o_o;;; Oh well... I'll have to be patient for another month now).

[kj1980]

Originally Posted by Himeka

I've tried to read most of the posts in this thread to avoid posting the same things others did, so I apologize if I missed some stuff...

I know some people have been babbling about Satoshi being alive or not..... but wasn't it him at the beginning of the Tatarigoroshi chapter (episode 9) some old people found in the water? It looked like him to me.

I have a lot of other things to ask, but they're about other chapters so I guess it'll be irrelevant to this thread (Actually, I'm planning to play the 'game', I'm just waiting until the tv series ends so it won't spoil too much for me. So I guess it's true they're skipping the last two chapters? And I heard everything was explained in the Minagoroshi chapter.... o_o;;; Oh well... I'll have to be patient for another month now).

People should really read the TIPS before they ask the same questions over and over again.

Your answer: TIPS #50 and TIPS #51

[Eric the Grey]

Originally Posted by kj1980

Sigh, as of right now, my internal thoughts for Higurashi right now are:

Game>Drama CD>Manga>>>>>>>>>>>>>>unscalable wall>>>>>>>>>>>>>>anime

Waitaminutethere! I thought the "game" and "Drama CD" were one and the same. Was this information wrong?


Eric hte Grey

[kj1980]

Originally Posted by Eric the Grey

Waitaminutethere! I thought the "game" and "Drama CD" were one and the same. Was this information wrong?


Eric hte Grey

English wikipedia article for Higurashi no Naku Koroni
Official website for the dramaCDs


Seems to me many people don't know what a drama CD is. I'll guess that'll be my new terminology to post on the Japanese Otaku Lingo thread.

[Kamel]

Graetings everybody I'm new here . I have been wathing Higurashi since the bigining . I discoverd this Forum after Onikakushi and by now I consider watching a new part of the story as completed after:
a) Wathing subed episode
b) Reading Tips
c) Reading Sushi-Y post obout that episode
By then I usually understand as much of that specific part of the show as non-game player can.
I didn't post here so far because I felt that my English isn't good enough for that,
but now threre is one thing that bothers so much that I will take a risk[ I oplogise in advance for masteakes].

Spoiler for My problem:

In the episode 19 Mion is asked by Shion whether she thinks that the Sonozaki family is involved in the kilings ,Mion say's she doesn't know for sure because onibaba didn't tell her anything but then and on few other occasions she agrees that such posibility exists. Then what obout her confession in episode 21 before ? She semmed positive that Sonozaki's aren't involved in the curse. Why didn't she said so from the bigining? , Why was she stateing somthing else earlier . Or was she only refering to Satoshi incident ? If she did why everybody in the Forum seem to consider Sonozaki's as proven innocent the fact they didn't killed Satoshi didn't change anything they can be still guilty of other murder's . Kei may have not become a target only because Onibaba was killed or for some other reason