Macross Delta the Movie 2: Absolute LIVE!!!!!! Discussion Thread

[ippus]

Originally Posted by Tak

Macross Frontier 30th Anniversary Movie Box set:

https://www.macrossworld.com/macross...ish-subtitles/

You can still get it: https://www.amiami.jp/top/detail/det...e=GAME-0010432

製品仕様

映像Blu-ray Disc ＋ PS3専用ソフト
●英語字幕(劇場本編のみ)

- Tak

...Oh hey I think I have that. I've never watched it to know rofl
It came with reprints of the illustration books only with a really pretty cover so I just bought it without thinking lmao

[Tak]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

Sadly, it was limited press only so as far as I can tell, it's not available on any retailer for sale, and the one I did find only ships in Japan. Also, if CD Japan is correct on this, the original price was $147. And I don't wanna think about how inflated it is due to the limited print. I paid roughly $260 for the TV boxset special years back and it had more content added than this. And since I already own the movies on Blu-ray, it seems insane to simply buy another set just for retouched footage and English subtitles. The price itself is a turn off.

Typical Japanese marketing trick. Cmon, where have you been!?

Basically you just wait for the first edition to sell, if it does well, you know they are coming out with something better and beefier. I did.

Originally Posted by ippus

...Oh hey I think I have that. I've never watched it to know rofl
It came with reprints of the illustration books only with a really pretty cover so I just bought it without thinking lmao

And a PS3 game, don't forget PS3 game!

- Tak

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Tak

Typical Japanese marketing trick. Cmon, where have you been!?

Basically you just wait for the first edition to sell, if it does well, you know they are coming out with something better and beefier. I did.

I know it's common; it's more of insulting due to the price of conversion for our currencies. For reference, the original release of the movies were roughly $60-80 for each movie and then this set was $147? Like, I could buy an expensive phone with that kind of money. It's the sad fact of buying the stuff overseas and it doesn't encourage much of a market. And yes, I understand why it's like this (Harmony Gold) but I still find myself irritated especially when I wanna support the release but it's priced too high for even releases of boxsets in my own country.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Matts

I can do a rundown of how many times the Shouji who is Kawa has recycled the same story, I'm on a roll anyway. At least Lucas has ideas. Kawa has the same idea, a lot of the time.

To be fair, Kawamori wanted to explore different ideas with Macross but the sponsors didn't allow it. For example, he wanted to do away with the love triangle, and he wanted to try a Macross anime focused on racing too. There were many other ideas he had, but they were all rejected by the sponsors. The sponsors are the ones who want the same thing over and over again. Always the same pilot + idol romance, always a pointless love triangle. And I'm sure it's also due to executive meddling that Delta ended up rehashing plot points from Frontier. If it was up to Kawamori, he would have done something totally different, but they didn't let him.

[HirouKeimou]

Sponsors overall are becoming the biggest issue with any form of media. If it's not selling merchandise or is unlikable to the sponsors, they won't support it. And if they don't support it, the money isn't there.

For a Macross series, sponsors likely look at if the show itself will encourage people to buy toys, model kits, figurines, or CDs because on average mecha does require a lot of money for animation (especially CGI). So once they hear "love triangle will be removed," their first thought is likely how people won't spend thousands of dollars on figurines to prove this one is the "best girl." Also, for reverse triangles, they don't think the market is there for women like it is for men. They don't see the point in doing it. Also, "a Macross without Valkyries and big ships to create toys for? No! Keep it standard less you alienate half of the fanbase!"

Sadly, this is also why we don't see much original mecha shows either. Because the sponsors think the genre is dying or "not popular enough to warrant continuous support." Which is hilarious. Because Gundam and Macross did not climb to their heights simply by selling toys; they both had at least one great entry. And sadly, the sponsors, the directors, and the writers will spend years trying to dissect what worked and recreate it. And because of that we'll end up with something like Aquarion Logos.

(Let's also not speak of Guilty Crown. That was a hot mess of marketing and selling lies.)

[Tak]

Did someone just mentioned Guilty Crown?

*Loads weapon*

Edit: Also, I want a Macross: The Ride series as well as a remake of the original SDF. Someone make that happen.

- Tak

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

Also, for reverse triangles, they don't think the market is there for women like it is for men. They don't see the point in doing it. Also, "a Macross without Valkyries and big ships to create toys for? No! Keep it standard less you alienate half of the fanbase!"

Because Gundam and Macross did not climb to their heights simply by selling toys; they both had at least one great entry.

Now that you said that, it hit me with a bit of irony.

You see, the original Mobile Suit Gundam (being too ahead of its time) was saved from obscurity partly by its huge female fanbase. They were all drawn by the drama & the charisma of Char Aznable. And Gundam also had reverse-triangle between Amuro-Lalah-Char. But none of them was meant or designed to pander to female audience. Tomino & crew simply worked their best to make great story & great characters for all audiences (even if the story is an unforgiving tragedy). And until this very day, various Gundam shows still have a great number of female following due to the above factors. Now, the lesson here should be obvious: great story & characters make great Mecha shows and the audience will most likely flock to your shows as a result, like the original SDF did.

For those who who are not Gundam fans, let me tell you that the main conflict in Macross Delta was a poor attempt at replicating the Universal Century conflicts from Gundam franchise. Windermere was a cheap knockoff of Zeon and the corrupt UN Spacy faction was a bargain-bin EFSF. None of them had the nuances & complexity of the Gundam factions they tried to copy. Now let's pray that Delta was Macross' final poor attempt at copying Gundam and that the franchise can come up with something different & fresh & good for the next series.

That said, I actually think that every Macross show still need to have fighter planes & action coz that's the basic appeal of a Macross show. But whoever responsible for making decisions should be more open-minded to new ideas & new approach to stories. In Gundam, whenever they tried to make a new AU show, the showrunners were almost always given a proper degree of liberty. Basically, as long as the show promote Gundam(s) and a good number of mechs ready to be made into toys for sale, they can practically make any kind of stories they want. It can be war, deadly martial arts tournament, terrorism, post apocalypse, model building, sport, gaming, period piece, espionage or even isekai. Macross really need to be more creative & simply be better. At this point, we can use a fresh idea like that racing story by Kawamori. Who knows, maybe a racing Macross anime will bring back the golden age of GPX Cyber Formula .

Side Note: the newer version of Space Battleship Yamato is slowly-but-surely replacing the Macross spot in my mecha fandom. It helps that they have better consistency, great story & characters and is not bogged down by love-triangles & over-reliance on Idols.

[Matts]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

To be fair, Kawamori wanted to explore different ideas with Macross but the sponsors didn't allow it. For example, he wanted to do away with the love triangle, and he wanted to try a Macross anime focused on racing too. There were many other ideas he had, but they were all rejected by the sponsors. The sponsors are the ones who want the same thing over and over again. Always the same pilot + idol romance, always a pointless love triangle. And I'm sure it's also due to executive meddling that Delta ended up rehashing plot points from Frontier. If it was up to Kawamori, he would have done something totally different, but they didn't let him.

No, he really has been doing the same cycle of stories since Zero and it's not just in Macross. Also the fact that Delta TV was overstuffed with plot elements and way too many characters that never went anywhere is a 100% the fault of a creative team who had no idea what they were doing.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

Sadly, this is also why we don't see much original mecha shows either. Because the sponsors think the genre is dying or "not popular enough to warrant continuous support." Which is hilarious. Because Gundam and Macross did not climb to their heights simply by selling toys; they both had at least one great entry.

I know the Wind-passers is compared to the UC-era Zeon a lot, but the comparison is not entirely apt. Zeon was in more ways than one ready for general warfare, with at least a higher technological standards and social cohesion compared to the Federation, whereas the Wind-planet is a backwater medieval world where apples barely grow! Moreover, most of Wind population probably still don't know there are other inhabitable planets in the galaxy!

All in all Wind-passers make such poor villains that they add further stain to the already mediocre entry of Delta in the Macross franchise.

- Tak

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Now that you said that, it hit me with a bit of irony.

You see, the original Mobile Suit Gundam (being too ahead of its time) was saved from obscurity partly by its huge female fanbase. They were all drawn by the drama & the charisma of Char Aznable. And Gundam also had reverse-triangle between Amuro-Lalah-Char. But none of them was meant or designed to pander to female audience. Tomino & crew simply worked their best to make great story & great characters for all audiences (even if the story is an unforgiving tragedy). And until this very day, various Gundam shows still have a great number of female following due to the above factors. Now, the lesson here should be obvious: great story & characters make great Mecha shows and the audience will most likely flock to your shows as a result, like the original SDF did.

I never used a specific example for Gundam.

But it's the consensus of most of the genre. The idea of women not liking it.

@Tak: I'm gonna hope you were responding to Obelisk ze Tormentor because I never used a specific example so both of you literally are talking to each other around me.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

That said, I actually think that every Macross show still need to have fighter planes & action coz that's the basic appeal of a Macross show. ...

Side Note: the newer version of Space Battleship Yamato is slowly-but-surely replacing the Macross spot in my mecha fandom. It helps that they have better consistency, great story & characters and is not bogged down by love-triangles & over-reliance on Idols.

Talk about irony.

If not for those idols and music, Macross would not be what it is today. There's a load of people who joined the franchise due to Frontier, which was overrun at times with fantastic music and action during said music. The appeal of the franchise is not really the big ships and action because arguably, Macross has always fallen behind other contenders when it comes to animating said action in any understandable fashion (i.e. Frontier was boring missile dodging for most of show). The draw for modern Macross has been the music + action combo, drama and story.

(Also, let's not forget that loads of people joined Frontier's fandom because of the love triangle.)

And it's not as if Macross relies on idols; almost all the idols they hired to sing were not even recognized prior and gained fame from the respective show they featured in.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

I never used a specific example for Gundam.

But it's the consensus of most of the genre. The idea of women not liking it.

I don't know about such consensus though. If you go back to the 2000s, Gundam SEED brought an avalanche of female fans who adored Kira & the ZAFT "boyband". Also, subsequent shows like Code Geass, Gurren Lagann & Gundam 00 was also flooded with female fans. And each one of them are biggest hits of the respective decades. How can a consensus dismiss all that? It's like dismissing the female fans of Final Fantasy franchise or Kingdom Hearts .

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

Talk about irony.

If not for those idols and music, Macross would not be what it is today. There's a load of people who joined the franchise due to Frontier, which was overrun at times with fantastic music and action during said music. The appeal of the franchise is not really the big ships and action because arguably, Macross has always fallen behind other contenders when it comes to animating said action in any understandable fashion (i.e. Frontier was boring missile dodging for most of show). The draw for modern Macross has been the music + action combo, drama and story.

(Also, let's not forget that loads of people joined Frontier's fandom because of the love triangle.)

And it's not as if Macross relies on idols; almost all the idols they hired to sing were not even recognized prior and gained fame from the respective show they featured in.

I mean, can you imagine a Macross show without planes at all?

It's like a Gundam show without Mobile Suits. Sure, the mechs can be the background only, but for Macross, planes is still the franchise's bread & butter. Heck, the title of the franchise is the name of super advanced Battleships. When many fans heard the word "Macross", the thing that they immediately recall is fighter planes doing Itano Circus and look cool. Story & characters are top priority, but futuristic fighter planes are important part of Macross' identity.

When I said "over-reliance on Idols", I didn't mean IRL idols. I meant they rely too much on idol aspects in the stories.

If they drop the planes & mechs altogether and go full on Idols, we will see this franchise go downhill one way or another.

[Tenzen12]

I could. I mean they still would have to be somewhere in background as part of lore but, let's be honest which interspieces conflict was solved by planes? If you ask regular citizen of macross universe everyone would now about Lin Minmay or Neki Basara, but which of them would ever heard about Roy Focker?

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

I could. I mean they still would have to be somewhere in background as part of lore but, let's be honest which interspieces conflict was solved by planes? If you ask regular citizen of macross universe everyone would now about Lin Minmay or Neki Basara, but which of them would ever heard about Roy Focker?

By "at all" I mean not even a glimpse. Not even in the background.

No planes. No mech action. Just pure idol show.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

When I said "over-reliance on Idols", I didn't mean IRL idols. I meant they rely too much on idol aspects in the stories.

Um, isn't the point of the over reliance on idols due to the fact that only song really seems to resolve conflicts? Like, that's kind of the point of having Minmei sing in Do You Remember Love? Because all-out war was not resolving the conflict, adding to the tragedy, and not transmitting their message clear enough. And every alien species until Delta has been communicated with through song primarily. That's kind of the point.

And it's likely weird I'm gonna bring this: But Kawamori himself has always seemed to like incorporating music into his shows. As an example, Aquarion as a franchise has no singers but there's a lot of unique music, especially during action sequences. And considering it was conceived after Macross was already under his belt, it's clear his passion lies in combining these two things. And it's not as if this hurts Macross' lore; it's helping set it apart from Gundam. Wherein Gundam most conflicts are resolved through war or talks of peace, Macross is a series which focuses on using song as a peace talk. And let's not forget that aside from maybe a handful of Gundam series, most "villains" in the franchise are human beings who don't need to be sung to. Meanwhile, Macross has a lot of alien species with various languages to communicate with.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

If they drop the planes & mechs altogether and go full on Idols, we will see this franchise go downhill one way or another.

This. LOL. There's been quite a lot of talk of wanting an adaption of Macross The Ride in the past. No one ever said planes and big ships shouldn't be in Macross.

However, when the animation of it looks like 2008 all over again with Frontier's models (despite Kawamori saying the engine is no longer available), then there's an issue. There's maybe three, no, maybe four good mecha fights in Delta which are not bullet dodging or, you know, constantly cut away from to save time and money on animation. And none of that had to do with how badly Delta was received because the show clearly had backing and a budget. Again, good CGI costs a lot of money. The only really good mecha fight I praised from the TV series back when it was airing was like the best one in the show animation-wise (not counting for the movies). And if they're gonna cut corners on the action like that, maybe it's time to consider sidelining the mecha aspect and rebuild.

Also, the animation bit is also true of dancing/concerts. Frontier had very good animation for its concert scenes despite how old it is now. And you would think Delta would improve upon this but no... (Although Delta did give us Junna...)

Here's hoping the new movie has at least one or two good fight scenes and the concert CGI isn't too ridiculous...

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

Um, isn't the point of the over reliance on idols due to the fact that only song really seems to resolve conflicts?

Macross 7 & Macross Plus proved to us that you don't need to always incorporate Idols to have a financially succesful show about music in sci-fi setting. M7 used the rockband approach & Plus used the weird techno AI thing as the source of conflict. Use your imagination. Good music doesn't always have to come from Idols.

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

This. LOL. There's been quite a lot of talk of wanting an adaption of Macross The Ride in the past. No one ever said planes and big ships shouldn't be in Macross.

Then why are you challenging my comment when I said planes & mechs still need to exist in a Macross show?

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Then why are you challenging my comment when I said planes & mechs still need to exist in a Macross show?

Because your original argument was that Macross absolutely needed planes and big ships in order to be Macross. And that's not entirely true. There's plenty of other Macross media out there that isn't about the ships or the action.

The argument that Macross, as a franchise, needs mecha in order to be Macross is overlooking all the other aspects of the franchise as a whole. There is plenty of other aspects they could focus on while sidelining (not removing entirely) the mecha.

[Tenzen12]

They need exist because, well, they already do. Not having them being part of conflict means basicaly erasing part of establishing lore and damaging consistency. It doesn't mean it's important, much less essential part of every story in that universe.

I mean it wouldn't be any less "Macross" if whole story was on Zentrandi colonised planet with no planes, because well Zentrandi uses Battle Pods instead (but they would still definitely love their idols)

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

Because your original argument was that Macross absolutely needed planes and big ships in order to be Macross. And that's not entirely true. There's plenty of other Macross media out there that isn't about the ships or the action.

The argument that Macross, as a franchise, needs mecha in order to be Macross is overlooking all the other aspects of the franchise as a whole. There is plenty of other aspects they could focus on while sidelining (not removing entirely) the mecha.

Yes, for a major/mainline Macross anime TV series, you definitely still need the presence of planes & mechs in some capacity. Otherwise, you are killing one big part of Macross' charm. By "presence", it doesn't need to be important. They just need to exist.

Meanwhile, some obscure Macross mangas or novels are free to do whatever coz they obviously have much lesser exposure than the TV series. Mechs are good for merchandising and it's still a good source of income.

[Tenzen12]

Correct me if I am wrong but, you are saying tha story of t Macross universe as whole need mecha, but not necessary individual stories in it. If that's the case I don't disagree. That said it doesn't mean mecha-less tv show is out of question or that it would be bad for franchise. Having big franchise means you can get lot of freedom.

I mean I know big franchise about suffering and war that make buck on completely changing formula and go full into competetive sport, then virtual reality and then into isekai.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Correct me if I am wrong but, you are saying tha story of t Macross universe as whole need mecha, but not necessary individual stories in it. If that's the case I don't disagree.

Yes. Macross major show/universe still need mechs to exist.

If the producers & sponsors are crazy enough, they can make a Macross show that's entirely revolving aroul Sivil traversing the galaxies & singing some songs to the Space Whales & other aliens so that there's no mech needed. I'll be perfectly okay with that, but unless they're gonna sell Sivil & other alien figures, I don't know how good that'd be for merchandising .

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

I mean I know big franchise about suffering and war that make buck on completely changing formula and go full into competetive sport, then virtual reality and then into isekai.

In GBF & GBD, the toys are the mechas that they use for merchandising.