Macross Delta - Windermere/NUNs War Discussion

[Wild Goose]

For all that the Aerial Knights talk up their nobility, I'm reminded of something that Margaret Thatcher once said:

"Being in charge is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are, you most certainly aren't."

Anyhow, they've got a funny way of liberating people. Spreading a disease that when activated controls people and robs them of their free will. That's a very unique interpretation of liberation.

If their cause was just, if they had the support of the people they were ostensibly liberating, they would not need to use Var. At all.

Perhaps Var isn't a WMD, but it's definitely a biological agent being spread indiscriminately against both military targets (legit targets, if a massive dick move) and against civilian populations (not legitimate targets). Let's also not forget the elite fighter squadron that attacked a concert.

[Darthtabby]

Personally, I'm curious about whether Windermere is deliberately targeting native civilians with mind control, or just the civilians from the emigrant fleets. We haven't seen what's happening back on Voldor for a while.

Roid's theory states that the races of the Brisingr cluster are the true heirs to the protoculture, not just the Windermereans. I think a lot of the Windermereans really do think of themselves as liberators. (Of course they also see themselves as the leaders of the cause -after all they're the first to rebel and the ones that protoculture left the superweapons to, and hey, there's got to be some reason why they're shorter lived then everybody else.) I imagine if you really hate your enemy, its all too easy to convince yourself that others will -or at least should- see said enemy as their own and appreciate what you're doing.

(I should note here, I'm not sure Gramia sees what he's doing as liberation. Like Kieth, I think he's largely motivated by the devastation visited upon his people. But I suspect there are a lot of Windermereans who do see things this way.)

This is not to say the Windermerean's views aren't hypocritical or dangerous -the saying "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" exists for a reason. But I think many of the Windermereans may genuinely believe that they're liberating the peoples of the cluster.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Darthtabby

I imagine if you really hate your enemy, its all too easy to convince yourself that others will -or at least should- see said enemy as their own and appreciate what you're doing.

Ok, that is a good point. So it is possible that Windermere sincerely views themselves as liberators, even if such a view is clearly at odds with the methods they're using to achieve said liberation.

It is possible that Windermere's leadership hates NUNs/earthlings so much that they expect all the other peoples native to their cluster to feel relieved at NUNs/earthlings being driven out of the cluster. Even if the means to achieve that is a costly one.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

The way some people are defending the use of Var, I think this point of yours is more what you think.

I think you're missing the point. People are putting themselves in the Wind's headspace to see what might be making them tick, while also pointing out the complexities of the situation. It's speculation. Also, personally I just find them interesting and fun.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I prefer to treat characters and their deeds as I would treat real people, because otherwise what is the point of discussion at all? If you can't draw parallels to real life events, the events lose all meaning.

Uh, the point is discussing fictional characters and events. Real-life parallels are all good and well but fiction allows us the chance to explore situations, characters, etc. without having to experience all these things and their consequences IRL. It's fantasy. If you prefer to think of fiction as real life that's your preference, then, but not everyone is like that.

Originally Posted by Darthtabby

(I should note here, I'm not sure Gramia sees what he's doing as liberation. Like Kieth, I think he's largely motivated by the devastation visited upon his people. But I suspect there are a lot of Windermereans who do see things this way.)

I'm not sure about Roid either. When he's talking with the Kitty Elder, and the elder is like "oh yes, I read your paper on how we're the heirs of Protoculture blah blah blah" - he asks, "do you really believe in this?" in a tone that pretty much says "do you really believe in this bullshit?" and Roid just sits there smiling.

I really wonder what's going on in his head. Clearly he's very passionate about something, but what that something is?

(Maybe he's just a huge Walküre otaku and this is his excuse to have them sing exclusively for him.)

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

(Maybe he's just a huge Walküre otaku and this is his excuse to have them sing exclusively for him.)

lmao!

That would explain him protecting Freyja from execution back in Episode 8.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

lmao!

That would explain him protecting Freyja from execution back in Episode 8.

Keith: Die, traitor!
Roid: NOOO DON'T TOUCH MY WAIFU--- er, We need her alive! For science. Yeah. Science. (OMG IT'S FREYJA-TAN OMG OMG OMG o(≧∇≦o) )

[ReddyRedWolf]

http://macross.jp/delta/glossary/

Carlisle black There storm

Windermere primary war of independence of the end, dimension weapons should have been prohibited from use has been dropped on the country's Carlyle district, it gave the extensive damage to the new integrated army had been civilians or troops. This scourge the opportunity, the new integrated army withdrawal from Windermere. War of Independence came to an armistice state of de facto.

Carlisle was where the NUNS base was. While the Kingdom of Wind alleges its was NUNS who used the MDE why would NUNS wipe out their own forces and where their people settled?

[Tenzen12]

Whole this notion, they are mindslaving others so they are evil is plainly stupid. War by nature is mass murder thus is immoral. When it come to war first and most important question isn't: "Is it right thing?", but "Is it necessary?". If answer is yes morality has to take break for while (Not that temporary loosing senses is that much worse than ending dead for good, but that's different matter).

when it come to war end justify means. So as long as Windermere reasons and goals are sound and as long as it's necessary to reach it even brainwashing few billions people is forgivable.

And no, there is nothing that would imply they are after conquest.

[Darthtabby]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

http://macross.jp/delta/glossary/

Carlisle was where the NUNS base was. While the Kingdom of Wind alleges its was NUNS who used the MDE why would NUNS wipe out their own forces and where their people settled?

My theory was maybe the NUNS really didn't want Windermere to take possession of their planet's ruins or something, but finding out their own forces were caught in the blast has me adding some weight to the likelihood that it was Epsilon.

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Whole this notion, they are mindslaving others so they are evil is plainly stupid. War by nature is mass murder thus is immoral. When it come to war first and most important question isn't: "Is it right thing?", but "Is it necessary?". If answer is yes morality has to take break for while (Not that temporary loosing senses is that much worse than ending dead for good, but that's different matter).

when it come to war end justify means. So as long as Windermere reasons and goals are sound and as long as it's necessary to reach it even brainwashing few billions people is forgivable.

And no, there is nothing that would imply they are after conquest.

As much as I think there are worse things than temporary mind control, I'm not comfortable saying the ends mean that anything goes. Ends justify the means is a very slippery slope.

I've been arguing that the Aerial Knights are sympathetic antagonists, not angels.

[AkitoW013]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

when it come to war end justify means. So as long as Windermere reasons and goals are sound and as long as it's necessary to reach it even brainwashing few billions people is forgivable.

Brainwashing a few billions and use them to hurt and kill innocent people in the vicinity is forgivable? I hope you're joking because you sound like a sociopath like that.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Darthtabby

My theory was maybe the NUNS really didn't want Windermere to take possession of their planet's ruins or something, but finding out their own forces were caught in the blast has me adding some weight to the likelihood that it was Epsilon.

There is also a possibility that Windermere revolutionaries did not know the blast radius when they used the MDE on the base.

Another is that revolutionaries saw those who cooperated with Terrans and living with them as traitors. Much like extremists would target moderates. Just look at Keith and Bogue's attitudes. Which I suspect goes back to Freyja's trauma of a house burning.

[Darthtabby]

Originally Posted by AkitoW013

Brainwashing a few billions and use them to hurt and kill innocent people in the vicinity is forgivable? I hope you're joking because you sound like a sociopath like that.

Except the only time in the show we've seen the VAR deliberately used to endanger civilians was in episode one to lure out Walkure. Which is troubling but a far cry from what you're describing. I will agree that Windermere theoretically has the capability to make the civilians they've been controlling go on a murder spree though. Notably, they have not used it.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

when it come to war end justify means. So as long as Windermere reasons and goals are sound and as long as it's necessary to reach it even brainwashing few billions people is forgivable.

Good Lord.

[AkitoW013]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

Good Lord.

I guess some people just want to see the world burns.

[Tenzen12]

No one sane want see world burn, but in the war that's happens regardless what you want and you either accept that or go watch Flying witch instead (It's really great show).

There is no way Windermere had any chance win without Var.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Uh, the point is discussing fictional characters and events. Real-life parallels are all good and well but fiction allows us the chance to explore situations, characters, etc. without having to experience all these things and their consequences IRL. It's fantasy. If you prefer to think of fiction as real life that's your preference, then, but not everyone is like that.

What I prefer is discussing fictional characters and the stories they are in as I would discuss a real life story, i.e. ground their behaviour in our reality. We all are living in this world and hence it is our first basis of reference and comparison.

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

No one sane want see world burn, but in the war that's happens regardless what you want and you either accept that or go watch Flying witch instead (It's really great show).

There is no way Windermere had any chance win without Var.

So, you support North Korea dropping a few atomic bombs on anyone they don't like, too?

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

Good Lord.

At least Tenzen12 has a very fitting avatar.


There is one particular argument Tenzen made that I want to address...

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

And no, there is nothing that would imply they are after conquest.

Just how many worlds does Windermere have to effectively conquer before Windermere's defenders accept that maybe, just maybe, conquest is one of their goals? I mean, geez, they've already annexed four worlds, IIRC!

Bogue also talked of "establishing the Starwind sector", while King Gramia spoke of securing the Starwind sector (and 'retaking' 'all' the ruins). That certainly seems to hint at widespread conquest to me.


I'm going to offer a hint to the Windermere defenders, just to make this thread more interesting - Maybe you should compare Windermere to the Klingons (especially those of Star Trek: TNG and DS9). There's at least a couple possible issues with this comparison, but Gramia would make a fine Klingon Emperor, and if I squint hard enough, I can maybe respect the Aerial Knights as proud warriors. A benefit to the Windermere defenders here is that the Klingons are pretty popular in the Star Trek fandom!

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

So, you support North Korea dropping a few atomic bombs on anyone they don't like, too?

First give paper proof that Var is a WMD, otherwise it's not even comparable near an atomic bomb.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

First give paper proof that Var is a WMD, otherwise it's not even comparable near an atomic bomb.

Play your semantic games with yourself.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Play your semantic games with yourself.

I'm still waiting for the proofs. Otherwise your arguments are just less applicable to this conversation.

VAR is not killing it's carriers, it boosts their physical condition with the tendency to make their hosts aggressive depending on their fold wave resonance.

If you put VAR on the same level as an atomic bomb, then you put anabolica and steroids as mass destruction weapon.