High School DxD [LN/M] - Discussion about Other Topics

[Chris38]

Originally Posted by kikix

For all we know, Issei may have been a devil even post-mortem (his second). I don't recall it being said that the pawn pieces are what give him his demonic powers. Just that they were used to reincarnate him into a devil and that they give him further boosts (or rather...the ability to get other boosts from changing into other "pieces").

The reincarnation may have embedded demonic power into his soul which he never lost.

What I recall is that unlike magic, demonic power uses the imagination. Since the consciense appears to be connected to the soul (Issei regained consciousness and ability to think as an armor-possessing soul), it may very well be that.

No, in volume 12 it has been stated that without the Evil Pieces - after Ise's second revival occurred,his body is like the body of a humanoid dragon ... so he definitely isn't a Devil without his Evil Pieces.

[Volume 12, chapter 0]:

[Appearance, shape, and certain parts are the same as that of a human. You can continue your life normally like before. But since the evil-pieces are missing from your body, you can say that you are a humanoid Dragon. Even though there was help from Ophis, you received your flesh from Great Red. You can say that you are a small True-Dragon.]

Although, despite that quote, Ise's body might still posses some demonic power, since it has been stated in the same volume that Ise used demonic powers during his fight with Jabberwocky.

[Volume 12, chapter 1]:

I released my demonic-power which I have increased to the utmost level towards the fireball! I then made a command just before the dragon-shot and the fire-ball were about to collide!

So a part of you're theory might be correct, since despite not being a Devil ... Ise was still capable of using demonic powers in a fight.

[aw454wtr]

I would think that prior to vol 11 end, even if the evil pieces were removed from Ise body he would remain a devil as I think the evil pieces transformed his body biology from human to devil.

But in vol 12 Ddraig pulled his soul out of his body and placed it into the new body made by Ophis and great red, this new body never had evil pieces placed into it, thats why when ise revived he was no longer a devil

[Superbia]

Originally Posted by Chris38

No, in volume 12 it has been stated that without the Evil Pieces - after Ise's second revival occurred,his body is like the body of a humanoid dragon ... so he definitely isn't a Devil without his Evil Pieces.

[Volume 12, chapter 0]:


Although, despite that quote, Ise's body might still posses some demonic power, since it has been stated in the same volume that Ise used demonic powers during his fight with Jabberwocky.

[Volume 12, chapter 1]:


So a part of you're theory might be correct, since despite not being a Devil ... Ise was still capable of using demonic powers in a fight.

He might have still had some of his demonic powers because he was still connected to his evil pieces. Ajuka mentioned that he syncronized with them to a degree even he didn't expect. If Issei is capable of doing something like sending Ascalon from his body to his evil pieces, it could be that he could do the reverse and sent demonic power from his evil pieces to his body.

It doesn't lessen the confustion that Issei said this.

[It’s trying to release light from its eyes!]

Ddraig shouts. So it’s a beam huh! I twitched my body and dodged the light! I’m a Devil so light is my weakness…. Wait, right now it’s a bit confusing, whether I’m a Devil or not.

He couldn't tell if he was still a devil or not, and it's his body.

[ImperialFlameGod8190]

^ U mention something interesting about Ascalon. The fact that he could send ascalon to Kiba even in the limbo-esque state he was in tells us something interesting. It tells us that issei's body was dead but the energy was alive so what GR and Ophis did was gather that energy together and create a dragonic body to contain it. What happened afterwards is that issei kept his demonic energy that he originally had and simply has to unlock the dragonic energy later on

[kikix]

Originally Posted by Chris38

So a part of you're theory might be correct, since despite not being a Devil ... Ise was still capable of using demonic powers in a fight.

I meant his soul, not body. Of course, his newly-made body was made as a dragon, not a devil. But if we'll assume the reincarnation affects the soul itself in addition to the body (which is clearly something that exists in DXD world from volume 12 itself as well), his soul may never have stopped being that of a devil. That could be the source of demonic power, hence why he wouldn't lose that power.

Returning the pieces seems to me as reincarnating the new body again...though I quite wonder. There may be logical issues with that, really.

Issei could use his dragon-transformed hand against Riser by being able to hold a cross with it. If his body after death was transformed into a dragon (hence he would no longer have devilish weaknesses)...what happens to his resistances?! Since the reincarnation (again) affect his dragon body from the beginning, is he no longer able to ignore cross even when using dragonificated hand? Does it only affect the full-human form?! If yes, why?! Because his dragon nature is still passed onto him from his boosted gear which was not reincarnated with him?!

I don't recall a situation where this would be brought up. A mistake on this could also be "explained" (more like, covered up) by the author saying that the heaven made him an "exception" in their system, alongside Asia and Xenovia, but this would give rise to the question...why?! It's not like he cares about the religion so it would be purely combat-oriented advantage.

[Superbia]

Originally Posted by kikix

Issei could use his dragon-transformed hand against Riser by being able to hold a cross with it. If his body after death was transformed into a dragon (hence he would no longer have devilish weaknesses)...what happens to his resistances?! Since the reincarnation (again) affect his dragon body from the beginning, is he no longer able to ignore cross even when using dragonificated hand? Does it only affect the full-human form?! If yes, why?! Because his dragon nature is still passed onto him from his boosted gear which was not reincarnated with him?!

His normal form is basically a part devil and part humanoid dragon hybrid, with maybe some human in there depending on the exact details of his resurrection, which means it is vulnerable to light and dragon slayer, though probably not as badly as it would for pure devils or dragons.

But when he uses dragonification his arm goes to more like 99% dragon and 1% devil because of the dense dragon aura, meaning it loses most of it's devil weakness.

[Gary29]

Originally Posted by Superbia

His normal form is basically a part devil and part humanoid dragon hybrid, with maybe some human in there depending on the exact details of his resurrection, which means it is vulnerable to light and dragon slayer, though probably not as badly as it would for pure devils or dragons.

Actually, Ddraig stated that because he now has a body made by Great Red and Ophis, in addition to his Boosted Gear, his Dragon-slayer weakness has increased:

Originally Posted by Volume 12 Life. 0

[Well that is true…… The demerit is like I said before, you lost many abilities because you no longer have the evil-pieces within you that were the source of your abilities. Also the danger of dragon-slayers has greatly increased since you have gained the powers of Great-Red and Ophis.]
…..Those two demerits are certainly bad. Well, for the evil-pieces I can ask Rias for them again, but it's also very frightening to learn that the damage I'll receive from dragon-slayers has increased as well.

The way I see it, he's a humanoid Dragon reincarnated into a Devil (stated by Azazel in v14 iirc). The damage from dragon-slayers has increased due to his new body being that of a Dragon, and in full-human form he has the same weaknesses that all other Devils do. However, when he Dragonifies a part of his body, that part loses its weakness to light. If he were to go full-on Dragon mode he'd most likely take light-based attacks neutrally. Dragon-slayer damage is the same whether his body is Dragonified or not.

[kikix]

That's what I wonder about. Is there some mention about that in the story?! About his dragonified body being less susceptible to light and holy items?!

In the past (with Raiser) his dragon hand was placed on top of devil. This time it was the other way around. His devil was put on top of his dragon body. It's his dragon body that could have been turned into a devil. Basically how Tannin is. Unless you believe that dragons reincarnated into devils do not gain the devil weaknesses at all (I don't believe there was a mention about that in the book), the only explanation on how Issei could become immune is related to his sacred gear.

Is his dragonification his ability or is it replacing his body with Ddraig' body (remember that that's how he gained the original dragon arm...he gave it to Ddraig, with more such trades eventually being said to give up his life to Ddraig himself, if I recall). If that's the case, how could he dragonify his arms when Ddragi was asleep?

Depending on how priorities are stacked, there may be various outcomes. For example let's assume the piramid scheme.

Dragon
Angel/Devil
Humans/Werewolves/Yokai etc.

With the above, dragon would never get weaknesses of anything else even if somehow reincarnation would be possible. If the part below have a weakness (for example, a Yokai that is weak to light) and would be reincarnated into something above that is not weak to it (like reincarnating into an angel or dragon), then the weakness is lost.

This scheme is doubtful though. There's a lot of work to be done. Then there are also problems with some reincarnations, weaknesses and the like.

Then there is a timeline based priority.

Human > Angel Reincarnation > Devil Reincarnation.

In this form a human that would reincarnate into an angel and then reincarnate into a devil would be just a devil. Clearly this is not the case since Issei have devils and dragons traits for certain.

Then there is the addition bonus where changes are added in layer with all of them applying where possible.

Human + Devil + Dragon = Humanoid Devil Dragon
Human + Dragon + Devil = Humanoid Dragon Devil

The order is important since where the two additions clash (like with weakness and resistance) then the latter one is applied. Since it's clear that dragons have immunity to holy/unholly symbols (bah, humans have as well) and are neutral to light and demonic power, their immunity and neutral status respectively could be considered on top if they are last in order, but could be superseeded if they are earlier.
This is probably how it is now. Despite being dragonified, Issei remained a humanoid (from his human form at the time). He also always was weak to both dragon-slaying and holy abilities, combining the weaknesses from both (since devils don't have particular resistances against dragon-slayer weapons since they never even applied to them) But this suggests that his current devil form applied the weakness on top of his dragon body. Shapechanging doesn't change that at all, while that's all that dragonification is now. It's different from earlier since it's the actual body of Issei...which was reincarnated into a devil again.


Either there is a higher priority to dragons (there is not, holy verses and churches still affect Issei and he is no longer a human at all, just dragon/devil in the shape of a human), there is a special case with dragonification (doubtful, unless an exception made for Issei) or his dragonification is an ability made possible by boosted gear (at which point it should have been canceled by Rizevim, unless sacred gear canceler is not absolute and doesn't apply to passive changes like that).
It's possible that it's just story-telling, really. Nothing stops the author from just saying that "it's like that, deal with it" and there's nothing wrong in that. But I'm a bit screwed on the RPG's side, so I like rules which can be universally applied...hence this topic.

[Gary29]

I'm not sure where the confusion is. Dragons only have a singular weakness of dragon-slayers; everything else is neutral. Ise, being a Dragon reincarnated into a Devil, has the weaknesses of a Dragon applied first, and the weaknesses of a Devil added onto it. Dragonification as a technique is separate from Ddraig turning Ise's arm into that of a Dragon; it's an ability displayed thus far by only two Dragons, that being Ise and Crom Cruach. An ability that basically belongs to humanoid Dragons (I'd assume Ophis might be able to do this also, but who knows - that would explain how Ise got the ability).

When Ise was a human-reincarnated-Devil and had his arm transformed into that of a Dragon, he was able to wield holy items with that arm because Dragons aren't weak to it. The same thing applies now; when he uses Dragonification, that part of his body should take a neutral hit to holy attacks (meaning, theoretically, when Ise masters a fighting style like Crom Cruach (with similar speed), he would be able to defeat Cao Cao without needing his Boosted Gear).

[jopjopjop]

There's a difference between Issei's sacrificed arm with his dragonfied arm.

When Issei sacrificed his arm to Ddraig, that arm turned entirely into a Dragon's. That's why he wasn't affected by the holy items.

Let's say if an arm is n% of a body, Issei's body at that time is (100-n)% Devil, n% Dragon.

When Issei dragonifies himself or a part of him, that part still carries the weakness of a Devil as what he only did is just to transform his body. Issei whether he dragonifies or not is both a Devil and a Dragon at the same time and their weaknesses are always present.

Issei's current body perks are closest to that of Tannin's as both are reincarnated Devils that came were Dragons before.

[kikix]

Yes, that's what I meant jopjopjop. Against Riser, Issei had his devil arm replaced with that of a dragon. Now he's just changing his dragon/devil body in shape. He doesn't change body.

Also, Gary29. I think you are mistaken. It's not necessarily that dragonification is a technique that gives dragons that look like humans the body of a dragon. It's just that some dragons are able to change their shape. There is no reason to believe that Crom Cruach looks like a human in his natural form. He may just use it because it's more convenient and he have gotten used to it after a long while in it.

Tannin can change his size at the very least. Crom Cruach is almost sure to be able to do that as well. His wings are far larger than you would expect them to be, and so are his other limbs when he wants them to. Issei on the other hand have no larger size since he was "made" as human-sized. This suggests that all of these abilities are just a single, standard shapeshifting ability of a dragon. Shapeshifting. Not body-changing. Unless there is something in the book that I don't know of (or can't remember) or there will be added in the future, there is no reason to believe that Issei changing the shape of his body loses weaknesses. After all, he is always a dragon/devil mix now, unlike when it was not his arm in the past.

Also, Ophis is pretty much guaranteed to have this ability seeing as it was clearly stated that Ophis is able to change her shape entirely at will. This is why it's possible that all dragons have limited sort of shapeshifting ability. Issei and Crom Cruach just have the ability to change between human and a dragon form (a "true" dragon for Crom Cruach and a winged lizardman for Issei, probably). Great Red could fuse with Issei, which is an ability thematically similar to this (though it was possible probably only thanks to the fact that Issei was made from his flesh).

[Superbia]

Originally Posted by kikix

Yes, that's what I meant jopjopjop. Against Riser, Issei had his devil arm replaced with that of a dragon. Now he's just changing his dragon/devil body in shape. He doesn't change body.

It isn't just changing the shape, though you're right it isn't changing the body either. It's the effect of concentrating a large amount of dragon aura into a part of his body causing it to be more dragonic than demonic, like how Akeno will get more fallen angel wings after she strengthens her fallen angel blood. It's why even after his fight with Raiser, his arm would turn back to normal after the built up aura is dispersed. That dragon aura is why he could resist weaker holy items, like how Vali's strong devil power is why he could resist Samael's dragon slaying poison to a certain degree, despite being a dragon.

[Rokumonsen]

Hey guys, a little OT. Where can I read the Slash/Dog novel?

[jopjopjop]

^ Here.

If you want a quick summary of the stuffs included there, check the link in my signature. Browse through the OP and the comments.

[Royalknightftw]

I believe it has not yet been mentioned that once Issei is in Dragonification mode then he would be immune to holy based attack, i guess we could assume that he is still weak at holy items even though in dragonification mode, as explained by Jop and Kikix. Or perhaps the dragonification could serve as a way only to add the resistance against holy-based attacks but not necessarily makes it immune of the holy powers attack (just like Regulus armor offering resistance against missile attacks but not immunity)

[Gary29]

I'd still say that a dragonified body part provides a greater resistance to light-based attacks than a Devil would have in human form. The weakness won't just magically disappear, but you won't take nearly as much damage as you would usually. As for if Ise has a larger form or not when fully dragonified, who knows? It hasn't been discussed so far. It's not like he knows all the abilities of his new body yet. But I realized the main thing I was confusing it with was the Dragon wings. Just like CC's dragon wings (and Rizevim's Devil wings), you can block attacks you'd normally take far greater damage from with those.

Back to an earlier topic, though, about the EPs: perhaps Ajuka will reveal some of the other secrets about them that'll explain it. One thing's for sure, once Ise unlocks the hidden power of his body, we'll probably get an explanation of the v12 events around the same time.

[Biohazardous]

Originally Posted by Gary29

I'd still say that a dragonified body part provides a greater resistance to light-based attacks than a Devil would have in human form. The weakness won't just magically disappear, but you won't take nearly as much damage as you would usually. As for if Ise has a larger form or not when fully dragonified, who knows? It hasn't been discussed so far. It's not like he knows all the abilities of his new body yet. But I realized the main thing I was confusing it with was the Dragon wings. Just like CC's dragon wings (and Rizevim's Devil wings), you can block attacks you'd normally take far greater damage from with those.

Back to an earlier topic, though, about the EPs: perhaps Ajuka will reveal some of the other secrets about them that'll explain it. One thing's for sure, once Ise unlocks the hidden power of his body, we'll probably get an explanation of the v12 events around the same time.

I'd love to see if any more of his pieces will mutate.

[Chris38]

I believe that the rest of Ise's Evil Pieces will mutate, after he awakens the dormant powers of Great Red and Ophis, which - considering the strength that those two beings posses - are definitely containing the potential to rise Ise's 'piece value'.

[B214]

Or Ise just develops a subspecies BB, the subspecies BB also gets a power-up like Triana and CCQ.

[Royalknightftw]

Dragonification, Hidden power of BG and DG, The yet unknown power from Ophis and GR, more improvised CCQ and Subspesies BB on top of it. Wow, Issei is really gonna be on par with those in God-class someday.