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Cherry_Lover · 2014-02-09, 21:54

I would be surprised if this were an Archer route, it wouldn't really fit with resolving everyone else's plot arcs.

bhl88 · 2014-02-12, 10:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

I would be surprised if this were an Archer route, it wouldn't really fit with resolving everyone else's plot arcs.

He can probably fulfill Heaven's Feel and Fate route while having certain skills: UBW, swordspam, etc

Cherry_Lover · 2014-02-12, 13:19

Well, it's more that Archer's backstory is unlikely to be one where he happily saves everyone and goes on to live a happy life. Having Sakura and Rin there to support him and a good resolution with Saber makes him unlikely to end up in Archer's position. And, plus, Archer seems to know relatively little about Sakura's situation, which suggests he never went through anything like HF.

Rising Dragon · 2014-02-12, 14:07

Up until Realta Nua's addition to the Fate route, I was under the impression that a whole lot of people thought/felt that the Fate route lead to Archer's birth.

That said, the most defining moments in Archer's life happened after the Holy Grail War, so unless they're going to do something that's post-HGW, I think it's unlikely this'll depict an Archer route.

Cherry_Lover · 2014-02-12, 16:27

Yeah, that's also a good point. Even if it were an Archer route there's no way we'd be able to tell. Even Shirou's hair turning white or whatever wouldn't demonstrate it, because that is something that could happen to him even if he is on a saner path.

I think Archer's route is probably one in which Archer himself wasn't summoned, though, because otherwise there is a logical inconsistency there in terms of how Archer first came into existence (it could be a stable time loop, but the fact that there are alternate routes where Shirou does not become Archer makes that unlikely). So, it is unlikely that any FSN-like route would be an Archer route.

Rising Dragon · 2014-02-12, 17:13

I'm of the same belief concerning Archer's original life. Which begs the question of just who Rin summoned the first time around, when her pendant hadn't become a catalyst.

MCAL · 2014-02-19, 19:11

I was under the impression that servants could be summoned from anywhere from the space-time continuum. So there is no "Rin who didn't summon Archer."

chaos_alfa · 2014-02-20, 04:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by MCAL

I was under the impression that servants could be summoned from anywhere from the space-time continuum. So there is no "Rin who didn't summon Archer."

It is not about that summoning Archer would be impossible, it is about if Shirou met Archer he would probably not become the Archer we know, because he would have foresight about his destiny and what he would become. At least you aren't going to try to look exactly like someone from your past.

GDB · 2014-02-20, 07:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaos_alfa

It is not about that summoning Archer would be impossible, it is about if Shirou met Archer he would probably not become the Archer we know, because he would have foresight about his destiny and what he would become. At least you aren't going to try to look exactly like someone from your past.

Archer doesn't look exactly like Shirou though, so not sure where you're going with that. Plus, it's not like there was really any hint of who Archer was in the Fate route, so the "Archer Origin" route is likely similar to that, except with not being able to convince Saber to give up (since if I'm not mistaken, Archer lamented not being able to save her).

Cherry_Lover · 2014-02-20, 08:42

The problem is that it's a paradox. If Rin always summoned Archer, then Archer cannot exist without Archer already existing. And, it can't even be a stable time loop, because it's not stable.

GDB · 2014-02-20, 08:45

It only needs a single stable loop, wherein Rin summons Archer but Archer doesn't do much of anything (like in the Fate route), and said Shirou goes on to become Archer. Every other reality can then use said Archer without creating a paradox.

maximilianjenus · 2014-02-20, 10:19

do we have time loops at all ? as I understand it it's all about akasha/akashic records, so the thing that is closer to that is parallel universes ; we only need that a parallel universe is able to create the archer we know, so taht archer can be summoned in any other parallel universe.

GDB · 2014-02-20, 10:53

They are parallel universes/realities, but since we know Archer participated in a grail war, then there has to be one where either Rin did not summon this Archer, or if she did then he didn't do much of anything. Otherwise, he wouldn't be from anywhere.

Cherry_Lover · 2014-02-20, 11:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by GDB

It only needs a single stable loop, wherein Rin summons Archer but Archer doesn't do much of anything (like in the Fate route), and said Shirou goes on to become Archer. Every other reality can then use said Archer without creating a paradox.

Even so, in that case Archer still just popped out of nowhere. He couldn't have existed without Archer already existing. And, since we know he can change his own past, a stable time loop cannot apply. His existence does affect the timeline, and therefore claiming a stable time loop where Archer existing doesn't affect himself at all is nonsensical.

GDB · 2014-02-20, 12:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Even so, in that case Archer still just popped out of nowhere. He couldn't have existed without Archer already existing. And, since we know he can change his own past, a stable time loop cannot apply. His existence does affect the timeline, and therefore claiming a stable time loop where Archer existing doesn't affect himself at all is nonsensical.

No it's not. Go watch Doctor Who. The past can happen because of the future.

Cherry_Lover · 2014-02-20, 13:31

Honestly, Dr. Who's depiction of time travel is generally completely illogical, and I don't even think it's meant to make sense.

Further, the situation you are talking about there is a stable time loop. I.e., the actions of the time traveller cause the conditions which make them time-travel. That cannot possibly apply when you have a situation where Archer acting causes things to change. Archer does not exist because Rin summoned Archer, therefore it makes no logical sense to assume that Rin summoned Archer in Archer's timeline, because that is just a paradox.

GDB · 2014-02-20, 17:17

We're going to have to agree to disagree, because him being summoned in his origin line in no way prevents his "birth", and as such cannot be a paradox.

Sansker · 2014-02-21, 13:31

Then again Saber’s deal with the world, god or whatever, was intended to make her an Heroic Spirit even if she was aiming to change her own history so that someone else became King Arthur. So maybe Shirou became Archer in normal history and he going to his past to meet himself change said events but the Counter Guardian EMIYA still exist as a consequence of actions that are no more. It means Archer is a consequence without a cause. The multi-universe idea is fine but with the point that each universe has its own separate timeline of events.

With that idea a change in the timeline affects the events after say change, but if the time traveler who changes them would not be affected because it is right at the point of change. Like in Back to the Future, when Biff gets the almanac and becomes millionaire. In that alternative time line Doc Brown was supposed to be in an asylum so he could never built the DeLorean and yet he and Marty still have the DeLorean. I know they came from the future to the past, but the idea works the other way around. At least is another way to explain it.

Rising Dragon · 2014-02-21, 13:36

I don't think the Alaya contracts work that way. For one, Saber's intended elimination from history was not going to be caused by the contract with Alaya; that was all supposed to be the work of the Holy Grail (and we all know how that turned out). And as for EMIYA's contract, the specifications for that was to acquire the power to save everyone in a great disaster, with nothing being said about his removal from conscious existence.

Sansker · 2014-02-22, 14:37

The contract with Alaya will have said consequence, I think they discuss it in Fate, because Saber was going to use the Grail to not be King Arthur and then comes the problem: she never was King Arthur so she never gets to the hill and makes the contract. But they do say that even if she makes the change she will have to serve as Heroic Spirit or something on those lines. In Archer’s case his contract was to gain power to save those people and then become a Counter Guardian. My explanation goes to explain the problem that it creates the fact that, as far as I know, Shirou has a lot of possibilities of never ending like him so he could not make the contract and send back to the past.

The terms of Saber and Archer’s deals with Alaya or whatever don’t really matter. The point will be that they both get what they ask for so they are force to pay the price. If their actions causes this contradictions in the timeline, it doesn’t matter, they will continues to exist as Heroic Spirits. If we go for terms there isn’t a part where it says “and you should not be remove from conscious existence” either. I just say that could explain how Archer becomes EMIYA and then changes his own past but doesn’t disappear and how Saber could change her own past and don’t disappear as a consequence. Is just a theory but is how I see it.

2014-02-09, 21:54	Link #121
Cherry_Lover Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Age: 39	I would be surprised if this were an Archer route, it wouldn't really fit with resolving everyone else's plot arcs. __________________ Come to forums.darksidemoon.net, a new Type-Moon forum.

2014-02-12, 13:19	Link #123
Cherry_Lover Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Age: 39	Well, it's more that Archer's backstory is unlikely to be one where he happily saves everyone and goes on to live a happy life. Having Sakura and Rin there to support him and a good resolution with Saber makes him unlikely to end up in Archer's position. And, plus, Archer seems to know relatively little about Sakura's situation, which suggests he never went through anything like HF. __________________ Come to forums.darksidemoon.net, a new Type-Moon forum.

2014-02-12, 14:07	Link #124
Rising Dragon Goat Herder Author Join Date: Jun 2008 Age: 36	Up until Realta Nua's addition to the Fate route, I was under the impression that a whole lot of people thought/felt that the Fate route lead to Archer's birth. That said, the most defining moments in Archer's life happened after the Holy Grail War, so unless they're going to do something that's post-HGW, I think it's unlikely this'll depict an Archer route. __________________

2014-02-12, 16:27	Link #125
Cherry_Lover Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Age: 39	Yeah, that's also a good point. Even if it were an Archer route there's no way we'd be able to tell. Even Shirou's hair turning white or whatever wouldn't demonstrate it, because that is something that could happen to him even if he is on a saner path. I think Archer's route is probably one in which Archer himself wasn't summoned, though, because otherwise there is a logical inconsistency there in terms of how Archer first came into existence (it could be a stable time loop, but the fact that there are alternate routes where Shirou does not become Archer makes that unlikely). So, it is unlikely that any FSN-like route would be an Archer route. __________________ Come to forums.darksidemoon.net, a new Type-Moon forum.

2014-02-12, 17:13	Link #126
Rising Dragon Goat Herder Author Join Date: Jun 2008 Age: 36	I'm of the same belief concerning Archer's original life. Which begs the question of just who Rin summoned the first time around, when her pendant hadn't become a catalyst. __________________

2014-02-19, 19:11	Link #127
MCAL Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2012	I was under the impression that servants could be summoned from anywhere from the space-time continuum. So there is no "Rin who didn't summon Archer."

2014-02-20, 08:42	Link #130
Cherry_Lover Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Age: 39	The problem is that it's a paradox. If Rin always summoned Archer, then Archer cannot exist without Archer already existing. And, it can't even be a stable time loop, because it's not stable. __________________ Come to forums.darksidemoon.net, a new Type-Moon forum.

2014-02-20, 08:45	Link #131
GDB Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Age: 38	It only needs a single stable loop, wherein Rin summons Archer but Archer doesn't do much of anything (like in the Fate route), and said Shirou goes on to become Archer. Every other reality can then use said Archer without creating a paradox.

2014-02-20, 10:19	Link #132
maximilianjenus [E] Join Date: Mar 2008	do we have time loops at all ? as I understand it it's all about akasha/akashic records, so the thing that is closer to that is parallel universes ; we only need that a parallel universe is able to create the archer we know, so taht archer can be summoned in any other parallel universe.

2014-02-20, 10:53	Link #133
GDB Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Age: 38	They are parallel universes/realities, but since we know Archer participated in a grail war, then there has to be one where either Rin did not summon this Archer, or if she did then he didn't do much of anything. Otherwise, he wouldn't be from anywhere.

2014-02-20, 13:31	Link #136
Cherry_Lover Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Age: 39	Honestly, Dr. Who's depiction of time travel is generally completely illogical, and I don't even think it's meant to make sense. Further, the situation you are talking about there is a stable time loop. I.e., the actions of the time traveller cause the conditions which make them time-travel. That cannot possibly apply when you have a situation where Archer acting causes things to change. Archer does not exist because Rin summoned Archer, therefore it makes no logical sense to assume that Rin summoned Archer in Archer's timeline, because that is just a paradox. __________________ Come to forums.darksidemoon.net, a new Type-Moon forum.

2014-02-20, 17:17	Link #137
GDB Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Age: 38	We're going to have to agree to disagree, because him being summoned in his origin line in no way prevents his "birth", and as such cannot be a paradox.

2014-02-21, 13:31	Link #138
Sansker Manus ad Ferrum Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Costa Rica Age: 33	Then again Saber’s deal with the world, god or whatever, was intended to make her an Heroic Spirit even if she was aiming to change her own history so that someone else became King Arthur. So maybe Shirou became Archer in normal history and he going to his past to meet himself change said events but the Counter Guardian EMIYA still exist as a consequence of actions that are no more. It means Archer is a consequence without a cause. The multi-universe idea is fine but with the point that each universe has its own separate timeline of events. With that idea a change in the timeline affects the events after say change, but if the time traveler who changes them would not be affected because it is right at the point of change. Like in Back to the Future, when Biff gets the almanac and becomes millionaire. In that alternative time line Doc Brown was supposed to be in an asylum so he could never built the DeLorean and yet he and Marty still have the DeLorean. I know they came from the future to the past, but the idea works the other way around. At least is another way to explain it. __________________

2014-02-21, 13:36	Link #139
Rising Dragon Goat Herder Author Join Date: Jun 2008 Age: 36	I don't think the Alaya contracts work that way. For one, Saber's intended elimination from history was not going to be caused by the contract with Alaya; that was all supposed to be the work of the Holy Grail (and we all know how that turned out). And as for EMIYA's contract, the specifications for that was to acquire the power to save everyone in a great disaster, with nothing being said about his removal from conscious existence. __________________

2014-02-22, 14:37	Link #140
Sansker Manus ad Ferrum Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Costa Rica Age: 33	The contract with Alaya will have said consequence, I think they discuss it in Fate, because Saber was going to use the Grail to not be King Arthur and then comes the problem: she never was King Arthur so she never gets to the hill and makes the contract. But they do say that even if she makes the change she will have to serve as Heroic Spirit or something on those lines. In Archer’s case his contract was to gain power to save those people and then become a Counter Guardian. My explanation goes to explain the problem that it creates the fact that, as far as I know, Shirou has a lot of possibilities of never ending like him so he could not make the contract and send back to the past. The terms of Saber and Archer’s deals with Alaya or whatever don’t really matter. The point will be that they both get what they ask for so they are force to pay the price. If their actions causes this contradictions in the timeline, it doesn’t matter, they will continues to exist as Heroic Spirits. If we go for terms there isn’t a part where it says “and you should not be remove from conscious existence” either. I just say that could explain how Archer becomes EMIYA and then changes his own past but doesn’t disappear and how Saber could change her own past and don’t disappear as a consequence. Is just a theory but is how I see it. __________________