(L) Kimi to Boku no Saigo no Senjou, Aruiwa Sekai ga Hajimaru Seisen

[manifla]

I like to think of it like this:
Talisman, the head of the Hydra family is immaculately dressed, well spoken, clever, erudite, excellent at planning and extremely patient when need be - as well as being capable of instant action. As a spokesman for the Nebulis Sovereignty, he is extremely effective. Alice would have a lot and a lot of trouble believing that he would ever harm anyone in her family.

Spoiler for Context:

He is capable of betraying his country, Queen, working with the Imperial Army and oversees the bloody battle of the capital. He ordered inhumane experiments without blinking an eye, knows his family's history of treachery and is ready to pay any price in the pursuit of their goal, without any guilt. Alice's inner reaction is horror because his disguise is so perfect.

There's definitely rationality going on. There are definitely people who are willing to take a stand and fight against the stagnation of the endless war, fight against popular opinion and shape the future as they see fit.
But many of those people can be so utterly ruthless and callous that it's almost madness, insanity at the same time. I can see how the streams are crossing!

[bakato]

Originally Posted by manifla

I like to think of it like this:
Talisman, the head of the Hydra family is immaculately dressed, well spoken, clever, erudite, excellent at planning and extremely patient when need be - as well as being capable of instant action. As a spokesman for the Nebulis Sovereignty, he is extremely effective. Alice would have a lot and a lot of trouble believing that he would ever harm anyone in her family.

Spoiler for Context:

He is capable of betraying his country, Queen, working with the Imperial Army and oversees the bloody battle of the capital. He ordered inhumane experiments without blinking an eye, knows his family's history of treachery and is ready to pay any price in the pursuit of their goal, without any guilt. Alice's inner reaction is horror because his disguise is so perfect.

There's definitely rationality going on. There are definitely people who are willing to take a stand and fight against the stagnation of the endless war, fight against popular opinion and shape the future as they see fit.
But many of those people can be so utterly ruthless and callous that it's almost madness, insanity at the same time. I can see how the streams are crossing!

Calling it madness because it treads on your sensibilities is a bit narrow-minded, wouldn't you say? Not everyone is incapable of wearing their heart anywhere other than their sleeve. You can know a man's face but never his heart.

...immaculately dressed, well spoken, clever, erudite, excellent at planning and extremely patient when need be...

Y'know, none of these qualities really say anything about his allegiance or moral character. Does he lose these qualities when he turns into a evil villain who can't go 3 three seconds without bursting into maniacal laughter or explaining his evil plot to someone?

This man is willing to betray Queen and country. Callous, ruthless, and without guilt. These are all a given and the least he should be. I'd call this competence. I can understand surprise and horror on Alice's part, but calling this madness and insanity just screams naive. Not something you want in a leader of a country. For goodness sake, you evaluated his moral character based on his job performance. Hardly a reliable metric.

From what you've told me, this man has a goal and a plan. All his actions and behavior he exhibited thus far has been in rational service to his plan. Where is the madness in this?

[manifla]

Secret File is five stories plus a short epilogue, one story and the epilogue are new. There are something like 15 “short” stories that Sazane Kei could’ve picked from (Dragon Magazine releases), not to mention quite a few shop specific releases (which are really really short). That said, these are in the middle tier of ridiculousness (the stories about the artist or martial arts are just slapstick incarnate)

Spoiler for Iska's situation:

Spoiler for Story #1:

Sometime before volume 2
A number of people from the Nebulis Sovereignty have taken military equipment and burgled gold from a neutral city. The council asked for assistance – one secretary called the Empire to deal with their natural enemies, the other called Nebulis to handle their own criminals without talking to the other secretary. It’s a meeting between Iska, Alice, Mismis and Rin with neutrals panicking that they might have set off a international incident – but after a lot of arguing and attempts to save face, everyone is packed into a small APC and sent off to find the criminals.
And there’s a fair amount of slapstick all the way through this story, including Rin threatening Mismis with a knife, sudden stops that throw Alice into Iska’s arms (and his hands under her skirt), Mismis relying on her history of traffic violations to find the perp vehicle, competitions to catch the most criminals, and a potential showdown between Iska and Alice interrupted and blocked in a mundane way. Alice denies any part of the bounty since the perps are from the Nebulis sovereignty, and will pay for the damages and injuries caused by them.

Spoiler for Story #2:

Sometime before volume 2
Basic Combat Training: A yearly course for all members of the Imperial Army, which counterintuitively is meant to test the absolute limits of each soldier. Iska in years before he got sent to jail enjoyed stuff like being held underwater until he drowned (to be resuscitated) and dragged behind a car to endure “torture” from the enemy.
Mismis throws a tantrum and doesn’t want to go, but this time is being sponsored by Risya who has something special in store for her. Also showing up is Mismis’s self proclaimed rival: Captain Pirie! Who is painfully average in all regards, but is from a family with a long history of illustrious military service , and who constantly berates Mismis and sucks up to Risya for promotion (denied at every chance)
More slapstick, with Mismis and Pirie being forced to carry members of their squad on a march, racing through muddy marshes, and all kinds of harsh nonsense. This is really Mismis’s story, where she shows that she’s terrible at both physical and mental trials but she’s got real grit in her. Mismis does save Pirie at the last hour and their relationship gets better. A minor part of the story is about Alice trying to find Iska through the Lou family spies and thinking that he couldn’t possibly be training at the moment.

Spoiler for Story #3:

Sometime before volume 2
Base renovations! Where Iska is stationed is where the women side of the barracks are being reconstructed and rebuilt, and all the women have been given money to live in hotels for the moment. Naturally this means that the money can be pocketed if anyone is willing to sleep outside – or grab a room with the men which means that Nene, and Mismis, and Risya bulldoze all over poor Iska and grab his place. It starts off with minor redecorations, proceeds to a game where gambling is used to determine who cooks, then BBQ, drunkards, and the emergency action button being pressed which summons a quick reaction force to Iska’s room full of incapacitated girls and one Iska in the middle of it all.
Alice hears about the aftermath through the Lou family spies and tries to send bail because “Iska could not possibly be interested in any other girl than I!”

Story #4 is Alice's wedding interviews as seen before

Spoiler for Story #5, the first new one:

11 year old Iska is going around a train station with his master, Crosswell. Crosswell is not the best at being very social, but he’s definitely seen some shit.
Tells Iska to imagine a criminal gang assaulting the train, or a meteor falling on it, Iska tells his silly master to be realistic – but Crosswell tells him that “You have to imagine all kinds of bad luck and inconveniences, whether on the battlefield or not, with yourself or your friends”
The purpose of this excursion, is to show Iska what’s the world like outside the Empire. By statistics, there should be a few witches walking around the train station – and they are no different from normal people. In Crosswell’s words, 90% of the star spirit users are no different from ordinary people – the ones like Nebulis are a minority. The anecdote of the Empire about witches and the scene Iska sees – are both true.
During boarding, Crosswell gets a call from a “Yumelgen” that he’s not happy about, and Iska gets on the wrong train. Which leaves without Crosswell, and Iska thinks that this is another of Crosswell’s trials.
Alice is on the train as well in disguise with Rin’s aunt! A short wordless meeting with Iska while he searches for his master, and she’s giddy – the first boy she’s really ever met since all the people of her age-ish are girls and royalty in the Sovereignty is pretty secluded. Rin’s aunt is more calm and level headed than Rin, but she doesn’t believe in people being able to accept star spirit users, and is insistent that Alice not use her star spirit. The Queen has decreed that Alice shouldn’t until she achieves absolute control – Alice did freeze an entire courtyard by accident although luckily she didn’t catch anyone in it. Her power is not a toy.
A pack of dinosaurs attack the train, and everything is chaos. The guards are shooting at the beasts as they bust through the walls and Alice is being held down by the aunt to prevent her from taking action (“your feelings are noble, but you must let the guards take care of things”)
Iska is fighting on the roof of the trains with his self defense sword, kicking the beasts off (which are seriously shorter than the flashback in the manga suggested) and he’s not having a good time. The terror of his first serious fight, the danger, the exhilaration of jumping from car to car is taking its toll on him, and his sword eventually breaks and he’s about to get jumped
Alice did incidentally see this desperate fight, and rushes out, praying to her star spirit to protect the boy, please don’t hurt him with the hold, and manages to shield Iska at the right moment, then throws ice shards to knock the beasts off.
Iska doesn’t see who it was, but figures it had to be a witch. She didn’t know he was from the Empire, but wasn’t that the right thing to do? He begins to change his preconceptions on witches.
When he wakes up, he meets his master at the destination and both he and Alice miss each other getting off the train. Alice begins to think that she wants her strongest move to be a shield (hello Ice Flower inspiration)

Spoiler for Epilogue:

Imperial Capital, the Emperor’s tower. Post novel 9.
The Emperor is talking to a newly arrived Crosswell, who haven’t seen each other in a while. The previous head of the Apostles who gave it all up, and is doing something with the People of the Stars (who are specifically not the Nebulis Sovereignty and are something or someone mentioned by Sallinger, Talisman, Elletear and Keurina) although the Emperor knows what’s up. This is a short talk because again, Crosswell is not a very sociable person.
-The Emperor fully expects the Ancestor Nebulis to wake up, because of the star swords for some reason.
-The Emperor found out who Alice was after Iska’s misadventure on the train, and knows that Iska was in the Nebulis Sovereignty over the past four volumes
-Nebulis is Crosswell’s older sister. And he’s been estranged from her for a hundred years.
-Every time Crosswell did something over the past 100 years, he just threw oil on the fire (whatever this means). He gave up the swords to Iska because “I can’t save this star”
-the Emperor mentions that Iska has been summoned to the capital by himself, and Crosswell sighs and tells him “tell me the important things first”

Volume 10 is scheduled to be released in October this year, with the anime.
“Let’s talk about old times – when the ancestor was a girl living in the Imperial Capital”
Iska’s path to the Imperial city has been blocked by a strong enemy (no idea) while Alice confront a turbulent choice and again confront the strongest and oldest witch.

[manifla]

[QUOTE=bakato;6429261]Calling it madness because it treads on your sensibilities is a bit narrow-minded, wouldn't you say?[/spoiler]

Insanity is in part defined as against societal norms, and I have no issue with my opinions, thank you. Do you want to argue with me that Talisman is in any way like the rest of the Nebulis Sovereignty?

This man is willing to betray Queen and country. Callous, ruthless, and without guilt. These are all a given and the least he should be. I'd call this competence. I can understand surprise and horror on Alice's part, but calling this madness and insanity just screams naive

Call it what you want. I call it a absolute disregard for lives, allegiances and honesty, a man who's detached from any kind of morality.
Even some guilt or self-doubt or even real courtesy would allow him to join the ranks of ruthless people who at the very least managed to hold on to their humanity. Here, it's all a giant, perfect facade. To me, that's insanity to be able to do all of this without even breaking the mask once. A perfect psychopath.

For goodness sake, you evaluated his moral character based on his job performance.

Should I have mentioned that he acts very kind and gentle which also allows him to be an effective spokesperson, which is true? And you forget that I am not Alice.

[Hillwave3]

I have a quick question. It is about an earlier part of the story and may be spoilers so I am asking before hand if we can talk about the series as a whole or if this thread is only for current stuff.

[bakato]

[QUOTE=manifla;6430059]

Originally Posted by bakato

Calling it madness because it treads on your sensibilities is a bit narrow-minded, wouldn't you say?[/spoiler]

Insanity is in part defined as against societal norms, and I have no issue with my opinions, thank you. Do you want to argue with me that Talisman is in any way like the rest of the Nebulis Sovereignty?



Call it what you want. I call it a absolute disregard for lives, allegiances and honesty, a man who's detached from any kind of morality.
Even some guilt or self-doubt or even real courtesy would allow him to join the ranks of ruthless people who at the very least managed to hold on to their humanity. Here, it's all a giant, perfect facade. To me, that's insanity to be able to do all of this without even breaking the mask once. A perfect psychopath.

Should I have mentioned that he acts very kind and gentle which also allows him to be an effective spokesperson, which is true? And you forget that I am not Alice.

Insanity and madness are defined by irrationality and lack of logical consistency. It's literally the definition and they have little to do with societal perceptions.

Oh, you're absolutely right on all counts. But it's not like we don't have leaders like that, eh? You think Trump, Putin, and Xi feel guilt? Maybe, I don't know. Psychopath or not, these traits are consistent with his goals, are they not? Call him a psychopath, but insane and mad? No.

Uh, yes. It's kinda weird you never mentioned anything in regard to his personality. Kindness and gentleness have nothing to do with being an effective spokesperson. It's a job where you make announcements on behalf of the nation. You need to juggle connections and be able to talk.

[LKK]

Originally Posted by Hillwave3

I have a quick question. It is about an earlier part of the story and may be spoilers so I am asking before hand if we can talk about the series as a whole or if this thread is only for current stuff.

This thread is for discussing the novel series as a whole. You can ask questions about an earlier part if you wish.

[Hillwave3]

Good my question is: Early in the series Alice drugs the main mc and this angered me. Does she ever pay for basically roofieing him? Does she ever get punished for her actions?

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Hillwave3

Good my question is: Early in the series Alice drugs the main mc and this angered me. Does she ever pay for basically roofieing him? Does she ever get punished for her actions?

Alice didn't drug him. Rin did that without her knowledge and against her will.

[Hillwave3]

Didn't she basically kidnap him though? Does he get her back for this? And does Rin pay for her actions?

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Hillwave3

Didn't she basically kidnap him though? Does he get her back for this? And does Rin pay for her actions?

She let him go pretty soon.

[Hillwave3]

Ok, I'm not trying to fight, I just want to know if the two of them pay for their actions as I feel like what she did was vile.

[manifla]

Originally Posted by bakato

Insanity and madness are defined by irrationality and lack of logical consistency.

Now you're taking the definition of mental instability and making it apply to informal terms. Informal terms which are indeed defined by violations of societal norms among a pretty wide spread of things, but stick with what you like.

But it's not like we don't have leaders like that, eh? You think Trump, Putin, and Xi feel guilt?

Is there a light novel I can read for the author give me the absolute truth about those individuals?
Because if not, it has no bearing to this conversation, or anything to do with Talisman.
And even if it did, it still has no bearing on this topic and I'd be making a killing on day trading instead. The end.

Kindness and gentleness have nothing to do with being an effective spokesperson. It's a job where you make announcements on behalf of the nation. You need to juggle connections and be able to talk.

First Alice is so naive that she can be fooled so easily by a perfect disguise - but now she was just fooled because you thought Talisman could talk effectively and rub shoulders?
Really?
Maybe work on your messaging there.

[Kazandu]

any news about vol. 10?

[Tascan]

Please tell me: what are the chances of a good ending here and that the main characters will stay together? Is it worth reading if so?

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Tascan

Please tell me: what are the chances of a good ending here and that the main characters will stay together? Is it worth reading if so?

I think this will probably have a nice ending.

[manifla]

Volume 10 out 10/17/20
https://fantasiabunko.jp/product/201...003001178.html

Alice did change her wardrobe in 9 to make a statement as the Substitute Queen (mother is recuperating) that the Lou family will never surrender or give up.
Great artwork, but I prefer her original dress

[dragon213]

Originally Posted by Hillwave3

Didn't she basically kidnap him though? Does he get her back for this? And does Rin pay for her actions?

Rin came up with that idea which alice was against as well, but when mismis came, she had no choice but to take him since it otherwise would look bad for them if they let him go there, however she never planned on keeping him a prisoner and got mad at rin when she mistreated him due to suspicion of him. Alice treated him quite well actually even though he was a prisoner as most of what she did was keep him attached to her by a chain. The bad one in that situation what rin, however she would've been a fool to let her guard down just like that, even though she later find out that he does have honor and to a certain degree started respecting him, realizing that he won't fight them unless on a battlefield and that he doesn't really want to do them harm.

Though it doesn't mean that does like him now, just respect him a little, just like alice, even though she is romantically interested in him, even though she was unaware of it then (alice I mean)

[blitz1/2]

I wonder why Mismis didn't nullify Alice's power though,

[dragon213]

Originally Posted by blitz1/2

I wonder why Mismis didn't nullify Alice's power though,

When he got kidnapped? First of all they were in a neutral city where they weren't allowed to have weapons, second of all if you meant her powers she had just a few days at most, how was she supposed to use them when she didn't even know how to.