Hong Kong Current Events

[Toukairin]

I love this YouTube channel. They posted this good summary of the week with the brands that bowed to China, the brand that did not, and then the fallout.

YouTube

https://youtu.be/KD3J95EUc-I

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

[dragon1412]

I think people are overestimates China economic attraction, I mean, they are big for sure, and i'd agree that it's impossible to ignore them 4-5 years ago, but now, not really, The shift away from china began 2-3 years ago. Many companies left CHina from rising cost, and those who still stay are those who either have very big factories or those that make billions in China. Remember, the whole 2025 initiative of China that start this trade war is because they know they are losing the foreign investors. And China's method of ultilising nationalism to rouse the people didn't help it one bit. Let's be honest, there was the time where China using nationalism to boycott Korea and Japan products before, and experts keep claiming that the blows is unbearable, but at the end of the days, they are still perfectly fine.

On the other side, China is in a lot of problem currently, the Hong Kong is just the most eye-catching one, there is still an entire issues with their real estates and economy with rising cost.

[SeijiSensei]

There are two sides to China's economic influence. One is its effective low-wage production that has been exploited by Western manufacturers. The other is the size of its ever-expanding middle class. The allure of a market of over a billion people has always been a primary motivation for Western firms. That motivation will persist.

While companies like Nike care about the cost of making shoes in China, the NBA cares about the size of its fanbase in that country.

[dragon1412]

size of consumer is indeed important, but i don't think it is nearly as touchy as production is. The motivation will persist, i agree, but what i want to talk about is that is not as solid as people think. The wholet theme of trade war was because of the diffences in deficit between US and China, and i mentioned the Korea and Japan example above, China have a streak of ultilising nationalism to boycott products from certain country, and many people call it serious blow, but at the end of the day, said country is still fine. Of course, I won't deny most western firm will choose profit over it, but China is not so vital to the point of global conomy will collapse without it

[Yu Ominae]

SCMP has something new:

Hong Kong’s security chief has said the government cannot escape responsibility for the protest crisis, but he refused to step down over its failure to stem the violence plaguing the city.

In an interview with TVB on Sunday, Secretary for Security John Lee Ka-chiu said he would stay on to bring an end to the large-scale unrest, which has reached new heights since the anti-mask law came into force.

The city has been roiled by more than four months of anti-government protests sparked by the now-withdrawn extradition bill.

Swathes of Hong Kong have turned into fire-strewn battlegrounds in more than four months of anti-government unrest, but security chief John Lee says he is the person to lead the city’s return to peace. Photo: Sam Tsang

“For the current social and political problems, of course the government has an unshakeable responsibility,” he said.

Asked if he would resign over the crisis, he said: “As an official, at present the most important responsibility for me is to curb the serious violence in Hong Kong … I have emphasised many times that I’ll continue to stay on to fulfil my duty.”

Lee’s remarks came as the protests showed little sign of easing, with the introduction of the mask ban under emergency legislation last weekend leading to another wave of vandalism and clashes.

Soon after the interview was broadcast on Sunday, protesters in Hong Kong staged flash mob demonstrations across the city, attacking shops with mainland China links and reportedly throwing objects onto railway tracks.

Earlier in the day, protesters scaled the city’s Lion Rock peak and hoisted a large statue called “Lady Liberty”.

The 4½-metre statue, which weighs 80kg and is adorned with protest accessories such a gas mask, was carried up the 500-metre peak during an overnight thunderstorm by several dozen demonstrators, some wearing head lamps.

It bore a black banner that read “Liberate Hong Kong; revolution of our times”, a popular slogan for the movement, and could be seen from the city below.

Criticism of police’s use of force against protesters is one of several demands from anti-government activists.

Among widespread complaints about police’s handling of the demonstrations, the Hong Kong Journalists Association has condemned what it called the “indiscriminate” use of force by officers against reporters.

Indonesian journalist Veby Mega Indah, a 39-year-old associate editor with Suara Hong Kong News, was hit by what her lawyer believed to be a rubber bullet when she was covering the city’s ongoing unrest on September 29 clothed in full press gear.

However, Lee strongly defended the force, saying it had been caught in the middle and was bearing the brunt of the public’s mounting discontent.

“I entirely agree that we shouldn’t rely on the police for resolving the current problems. But at this stage we need police to contain the violence,” he said.

Lee pointed out the ongoing political conflict had caused serious rifts in society, with two opposing forces.

“The police force is being caught in the crossfire and become the centre of attention,” he said.

“I understand that in an environment fraught with political strife, people would be unhappy about certain law enforcement actions by police. But they are only maintaining law and order.”

Lee also questioned why society had focused on the use of force by police, but failed to raise concerns about rampaging violence by radical protesters, who have vandalised public facilities such as MTR stations and even attacked those holding opposing views to them.

“The rioters have created all these social problems, leading to police’s use of force against them. I wonder why nobody raises this cause and effect issue?” he asked.

Separately, Secretary for Justice Teresa Cheng Yeuk-wah has tried to reassure people the new anti-mask law would not have much of an impact on their daily lives.

“If a member of the public in a public place is asked by police officers to remove the face covering to verify his identity, he may wear it again after the verification process is completed,” she wrote on her official blog on Sunday.

“Interference with a person’s rights is minimal, and in any event proportionate to the legitimate aim of protecting public safety and public order … Other than the specified circumstances set out in the new regulation, people are generally free to wear face masks and the impact on their daily lives is limited,” she assured.

The specified circumstances, she explained, included unlawful and unauthorised assemblies, as well as public meetings or processions with police approval.

However, she emphasized that police also had the power to require a person to remove a facial covering in a public place to verify his or her identity.

Well, Mr. Lee's thoughts on why not enough peeps condemn the vandalizing of the MTR stations is something my folks are willing to point out.

[Infinite Zenith]

The excessive vandalism of public property by the rioters is not justified; it's far removed from the original protesters' cause. There is reason to support the protesters who merely want to stop their liberties from being diminished and voice for their concerns, but any implication that the rioters are in the right is a mistaken thought.

[Yu Ominae]

Looks like someone hardcore went for the mobile phone IED route.

According to sources I'm reading, all the moderate factions are not liking this happening 'cause it'll give the HKPF more ammo to come hard.

[Infinite Zenith]

If it is indeed the case that a homemade bomb was detonated, this is no longer a protest, or even riot. This is terrorism, and must be met with a swift end.

[SeijiSensei]

Trump promised Xi not to take any action with respect to Hong Kong

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/04/polit...sts/index.html

During a private phone call in June, President Donald Trump promised Chinese President Xi Jinping that the US would remain quiet on pro-democracy protests in Hong Kong while trade talks continued, two sources familiar with the call tell CNN.

The remarkable pledge to the Chinese leader is a dramatic departure from decades of US support for human rights in China and shows just how eager Trump is to strike a deal with Beijing as the trade war weighs on the US economy.

And like other calls with the leaders of Ukraine, Russia and Saudi Arabia, records of Trump's call with Xi were moved to a highly-classified, codeword-protected system, greatly limiting the number of administration officials who were aware of the conversation.

Meanwhile the vaunted trade deal appears to be going nowhere despite White House assurances to the contrary.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-e...ce-11570912439

[Eisdrache]

Originally Posted by Infinite Zenith

The excessive vandalism of public property by the rioters is not justified; it's far removed from the original protesters' cause. There is reason to support the protesters who merely want to stop their liberties from being diminished and voice for their concerns, but any implication that the rioters are in the right is a mistaken thought.

There is one thing that needs to be clear as a base line: China doesn't not give a rat's ass about a peaceful protest, especially in an isolated area like Hong Kong. Unlike some other forum users I'm not condoning the violence from either side but to the protesters they see this as the only way to fight against excessive police violence and the inaction of the west. It may sound nice to your conscience to criticize them but in the end this is what killed the bill.

[Infinite Zenith]

You would actively support and then participate in the destruction of property and assault on law enforcement if something similar were to happen in your area?

[Eisdrache]

What a loaded question. If I say no you'll call my a hypocrite and if I say yes you'll call me a criminal. Here's a slightly more detailed answer:

If a) my rights are threatened by a vastly stronger power, b) none of my allies were willing to help me, c) said power uses law enforcement to beat me up regardless of whether I provoke them or don't, d) peaceful diplomacy had literally no effect,

then yes I'd consider that as a last avenue.

[Toukairin]

Originally Posted by Infinite Zenith

You would actively support and then participate in the destruction of property and assault on law enforcement if something similar were to happen in your area?

If cops are caught repeateadly beating people and then escaping punishment while violating people's rights, then you can expect cops to start getting proper f***ed by the people left with nothing but doing justice to themselves. China never gave a flying f*** about any peaceful protest anywhere; they used repression against their own people, who protested against the construction of a waste-to-energy plant. You better feel happy that Hongkongers are not resorting to something more violent YET because the HKPF genuinely deserves to be hit harder after everything they have done.

Back in the days of the Troubles in Northern Ireland, cops were targeted in kinds of attacks. At the height of violences in the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, police units were targeted with bombing against police stations for years. In a different time, I would not shown any understanding as to why insurgents did it. But now, I clearly understand why. When cops are are perceived as an occupying force that protects oppressors than as a force that serves the people with respect to the rule of law, that is what happens.

The HK government f***ed themselves because the chief executive is a stubborn c***. Now the whole mess and the blood that accompanies it are on her hands.

[Yu Ominae]

HKPF has this out:

With a view to upholding public order and ensuring the safety of Police officers and their family members who are residing in Disciplined Services Quarters and Police Married Quarters (the Quarters), Police yesterday (October 14) sought assistance from the Department of Justice to apply for an Injunction Order (HCA 1886/2019) for the Quarters to restrain:

(i) unlawfully and wilfully obstructing, occupying or remaining on or hindering or preventing the passing or repassing of any road or passageway, whether vehicular or pedestrian, in the portion of public roads;

(ii) damaging or defacing any part of the Quarters, entering any part of the Quarters without prior authorisation; interfering with the use and enjoyment of the Quarters by the residents thereat (including but not limited to entering the Quarters; obstructing or preventing access to any of the entrances of the Quarters; projecting light of such intensity and/or frequency that is capable of reducing a viewer's ability to see or producing any sensation of discomfort to any viewer onto any part of the Quarters by the use of laser emitting tool or equipment, spot light or flash light; and

(iii) inciting, aiding or abetting any person to do any of the above acts

Since August this year, there have been repeated instances in which large crowds targeting Police officers and their families had surrounded various Quarters. Wong Tai Sin Disciplined Services Quarters was one of the most regularly and seriously besieged Quarters. Other Quarters were also stormed and the level of violence has been escalating in recent weeks. For instance, in the small hours of October 5, six petrol bombs, two paint bombs, two acid bombs and other hard objects were hurled into the Sheung Shui Police Married Quarters.

Such escalating illegal acts have caused serious harassment and inconvenience to the residing officers of Police and other disciplinary forces as well as other tenants of the Quarters, endangering their personal safety and even resulting in mental distress. Facilities of the Quarters were also severely damaged.

Since there have been relevant malicious remarks in social media, the risk of reoccurrence of the above vandalism and storming act is deemed extremely high. There are also other evidences indicating the likelihood of reoccurrence of similar incidents which may pose relevant threat and constitute harassment/vandalism.

In view of the above, the Secretary for Justice made an application for the Injunction Order, which was heard and allowed by the Court of First Instance. The sealed copies of the Injunction Order, once obtained, will be published shortly onto relevant Government websites as well as the webpage of Hong Kong Police Force. It will also be posted at conspicuous locations of the Quarters.

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by Toukairin

When cops are are perceived as an occupying force that protects oppressors than as a force that serves the people with respect to the rule of law, that is what happens.

In the case of Northern Ireland, British soldiers were more often targeted than local police. From the point of view of Sinn Fein and other Irish nationalists, the army was indeed an occupying force.

[Kakurin]

Originally Posted by Eisdrache

What a loaded question. If I say no you'll call my a hypocrite and if I say yes you'll call me a criminal. Here's a slightly more detailed answer:

If a) my rights are threatened by a vastly stronger power, b) none of my allies were willing to help me, c) said power uses law enforcement to beat me up regardless of whether I provoke them or don't, d) peaceful diplomacy had literally no effect,

then yes I'd consider that as a last avenue.

You talk as if Mohandas Gandhi is a fictional figure.
And in the end violence and terrorism achieves nothing. Just look at the legacy of the RAF in Germany. The fight for true freedom is not a sprint, it's a long grueling marathon. And the less violent it is - from both sides - the more stable will its legacy be.

And to be very frank, I don't even consider this radical minority protestors for freedom, liberty and democracy. These couple of people are just using (and poisoning) the movement as an excuse to let out their frustration and live out violence fantasies they under normal circumstances couldn't.

[Yu Ominae]

AP has this article on the blowback the NBA is facing:

LOS ANGELES (AP) — Le Bron James believes Houston Rockets general manager Daryl Morey "was either misinformed or not really educated on the situation" regarding the potential consequences of his actions when he tweeted in support of Hong Kong's pro-democracy protests.

In his first public comments since the Los Angeles Lakers returned home from a strange weeklong tour of China immediately after Morey's incendiary tweet , James' lengthy answer to a question about whether Morey should be punished for his tweet didn't appear to specifically address the merits of Morey's support of Hong Kong sovereignty.

The Lakers superstar instead characterized the international incident caused by Morey's tweet as a cautionary tale about the power of social media.

"Yes, we do have freedom of speech," James said. "But at times, there are ramifications for the negative that can happen when you're not thinking about others, when you only think about yourself. I don't want to get into a word or sentence feud with Daryl Morey, but I believe he wasn't educated on the situation at hand, and he spoke. So many people could have been harmed, not only financially but physically, emotionally, spiritually. So just be careful what we tweet and what we say and what we do. Even though yes, we do have freedom of speech, it can be a lot of negative that comes with it."

When asked to clarify his thoughts, James went further.

"I believe (Morey) was either misinformed or not really educated on the situation, and if he was, then so be it," James said. "But I have no idea. That's just my belief. When you say things or do things, you're doing it and you know the people that can be affected by it, and the families and the individuals and everyone that can be affected by it. Sometimes things can be challenging as well. Also sometimes, social media is not always the proper way to go about things as well. But that's just my belief."

A Rockets spokesperson didn't immediately respond to request for comment Monday night on James' remarks.

James' comments set off swift reaction on social media, with many listeners perceiving his comments as criticism of the democracy movement in Hong Kong. James addressed the issue again in two tweets before the Lakers' preseason game against Golden State at Staples Center.

"Let me clear up the confusion," James tweeted. "I do not believe there was any consideration for the consequences and ramifications of the tweet. I'm not discussing the substance. Others can talk about that. ... My team and this league just went through a difficult week. I think people need to understand what a tweet or statement can do to others. And I believe nobody stopped and considered what would happen. Could have waited a week to send it."

James didn't play, but watched from the bench when the Lakers hosted the Warriors on Monday night, just two days after they returned home from their bizarre trip to China.

A typical NBA preseason promotional swing through Shanghai and Shenzhen became something else when Morey tweeted in support of the Hong Kong protesters while the Lakers were in the air on their 13-hour flight to China.

The Lakers landed amid outrage in China with Morey's since-deleted tweet and the NBA in general. The league and Chinese authorities decided to hold no media availability or community events with the Lakers or the Brooklyn Nets, their opponents.

The Lakers passed their week in China in public silence. Although the exhibition games weren't canceled, the league claimed it would be unfair to ask players and coaches to speak on the delicate geopolitical argument in which they found themselves involuntarily enmeshed.

So the players spent most of the week in hotels or on the court, with two NBA Cares events, a fan event and other public appearances all canceled by the league or the government. Several companies and state-run offices reportedly severed their ties with the NBA over Morey's tweet and the league's response to it.

The Lakers and Nets also met with NBA Commissioner Adam Silver. James said he was happy with Silver's handling of the controversy, which led to criticism of the commissioner from supporters on both sides of the Hong Kong movement.

"It was a tough situation for Adam as well, to put out a fire that he didn't start," James said.

When asked about his thoughts on the political side of the events in China, James echoed Warriors coach Steve Kerr's belief that he didn't know enough to comment on the situation.

"When I speak about something, I speak about something I am very knowledgeable about, something that hits home for me, something that I am very passionate about," James said. "I felt like with this particular situation, it was something that not only was I not informed enough about, I just felt like it was something that not only myself and my teammates or our organization had enough information to even talk about it at that point in time, and we still feel the same way."

[Infinite Zenith]

Further to this, this well-written piece at SCMP shows that violence is most certainly not the way to accomplish things, least of all when the rioters' goals are anarchy and destruction. To quote the article:

Disorder must not be normalised. Now that the risk to society has been so graphically illustrated, Hong Kong must stick with peaceful means of expression. We do not want violence to become a part of life – with Mondays to Fridays work days, and mobsters taking over our streets at the weekend.

There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding that supporting democracy is synonymous with advocating for the right of people to destroy property and harm law enforcement. This isn't the case: one can support democracy and freedom while opposing violence at the same time. It's not hypocrisy, it's moderation.

[Eisdrache]

Originally Posted by Kakurin

You talk as if Mohandas Gandhi is a fictional figure.
And in the end violence and terrorism achieves nothing. Just look at the legacy of the RAF in Germany. The fight for true freedom is not a sprint, it's a long grueling marathon. And the less violent it is - from both sides - the more stable will its legacy be.

~70 years of peaceful protest have worked great for North Korea.

With all due respect to Gandhi's accomplishments, it would not achieve anything of substance in today's China. A non-violent approach is indeed preferable but how long is one willing to suffer the abuse? Ten years? Thirty years? Fifty? Especially in the face of China's control growing stronger as time goes on. Let's face it, China is absolutely willing to use violence anywhere, anytime, and they are the far stronger player. A non-violent process from their side is just a delusional pipe dream. You can see how far this delusion has spread when people in this very thread are believing with heart and soul that the police in Hong Kong is just peacefully defending themselves. Today's parents are going to be so happy to tell their children that they can look forward to another generation of oppression so that maybe their grand-children can live free.

To make this clear - I sympathize with peaceful protest, whether it is in Hong Kong or any other place. But the reality is that a long marathon for a stable future are nice words, especially from a place that doesn't have to deal with it, but it's a mockery for those who are suffering right now.

[Toukairin]

Originally Posted by Eisdrache

~70 years of peaceful protest have worked great for North Korea.

With all due respect to Gandhi's accomplishments, it would not achieve anything of substance in today's China. A non-violent approach is indeed preferable but how long is one willing to suffer the abuse? Ten years? Thirty years? Fifty? Especially in the face of China's control growing stronger as time goes on. Let's face it, China is absolutely willing to use violence anywhere, anytime, and they are the far stronger player. A non-violent process from their side is just a delusional pipe dream. You can see how far this delusion has spread when people in this very thread are believing with heart and soul that the police in Hong Kong is just peacefully defending themselves. Today's parents are going to be so happy to tell their children that they can look forward to another generation of oppression so that maybe their grand-children can live free.

To make this clear - I sympathize with peaceful protest, whether it is in Hong Kong or any other place. But the reality is that a long marathon for a stable future are nice words, especially from a place that doesn't have to deal with it, but it's a mockery for those who are suffering right now.

Very much this.

And let's put some closure on the Gandhi stuff here. India would have not gained their independence if it wasn't for a severely weakened British Empire being ripped to shreds by the Germans and by the Japanese a few years before 1947. But when the Empire was strong, I cannot count how many times rebellions, peaceful or not, were crushed by British and loyalist Indian troops.

As for China, they are already use their full strength to use violent and illegal means aiming a cultural genocide in Xinjiang. Where's the f***ing police in that region? They are clearly complicit. Like Eisdrache pointed out, some people are severely deluded when they say that cops have to protect themselves. F***ing BS! If the HKPF cares that much about the well-being of their city, I would be expecting mutinies and protests by now just as there have been in other professional layers over there.

As I already pointed in a previous post, when cops are perceived as an occupying force (or also as a group that works in hand with the occupying force), you can expect the angry people to be waging war against them. After everything that has been done by the HKPF and left unpunished, the government screwed everything up from the start. Blood will remain on their hands, and there will be a special place in hell for Carrie Lam and the other people who are responsible for the original mess.