Macross Delta - Anime General Discussion Thread

[squaresphere]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Now you're arguing semantics? . Suit yourself then. You can wait ten years to see whether the world's military will use giant humanoid robots to do battle. I, on the other hand, know better.

Uh I think you might have missed the point of my post. Macross has the BEST reason to have a humanoid robot form AND it explains how and why through the SDF Macross landing.

For series like Gundam and FMP theres NO reason to have humanoid robots. Honestly the best mecha I've seen for the use of humanoid mecha is actually Gasaraki (all the urban combat, mecha is actually pretty small more akin to power armor than true "mecha").

[dmaxzero]

Originally Posted by darkchibi07

Always gotta try try again. I don't know why you have a problem with that, but it would be a nice change of pace for the series' franchise.

Is not a problem actually, but more of a personal choice.
I think heroines in other roles are fairly great and well done. And they are currently increasing their roles in different types of shows.

And Nora was a great pilot villian in Macross Zero. But the hero on this type of shows works on a male version, again, in my opinion, in my personal and particular tastes. I really dig Misa Hayes as the commander of the Megaroad 1 in Flashback.

Macross 2 had Sylvie as a squadron leader, and despite the poor show that Macross 2 was, she was a really neat pilot, but she never worked for me as the hero lead type, Nexx (The one in the Metallic Siren) was the hero type, but totally undeveloped.

I don´t know, I do not want the next Macross show to have a female hero pilot. Period. XD

[Tak]

Originally Posted by squaresphere

For series like Gundam and FMP there NO reason to have humanoid robots. Honestly the best mecha I've seen for the use of humanoid mecha is actually Gasaraki (all the urban combat, mecha is actually pretty small more akin to power armor than true "mecha").

Gundam had a very good reason for having humanoid robots, and this had to do with the discovery of Minovsky particles.

Minovsky particles severally curtailed the use of sensors and the output of their projection, restricting their effective distance from double to triple digits at best. It also interrupted the development of communications technology, rendering radio-waves as the only certain method of communication. This meant, most weapons we take it for granted in today's world cannot be utilized in Gundam, such as homing weapons or computer guidance systems. ZZ is an in-verse example, where we found out Judah's home colony was late on receiving the news of TITAN's downfall due to significant Minovsky interruption that prevented information from traveling.

Therefore, most combat was limited to CQC, or at best, as far as the eye can see. Thus, as they found out (in verse), that humanoid robots was able to carry more firepower than conventional platforms, mobile suits quickly became the primary tools for war. Moreover, this is also the reason why New Types were so important. If trained as pilots, New Types were able to sense at a greater distance than most conventional tools would allow, even if in comparison, their abilities are still a far cry from what the technologies in Macross can accomplish.

- Tak

[dmaxzero]

As our current technology is, a humanoid weapon of 15+ meters tall is a waste, since it will make it too noticeable for any combat system at date.

A system of no more than 8 meter tall, while still a waste in our current fighting system. Would have good uses in urban environment due to cornering and evasion. But still no street is made for it, so being cornered, obstructed or trapped could make it useless.

PROs of humanoid machines:
-High mobility, 360 combat ability, multi sensors array, the possibility to be outfitted with a wide array of weapons for different scenarios and configurations in a single platform. Virtually no terrain will be non accessible.

CONs:
-Way too visible. Highly expensive, lots of parts that move, which is never good for an autonomous weapon system. No energy supply could keep such thing in motion for the needed time to be practical.

I think our methods of warfare would have to change, also we would need a new energy system that is stable, of long duration and that allows highly amounts of energy to be used. New materials, new types of armor, different types of electronics and Qcomputing is a must for the amount of info it must manage to be useful.

And more importantly, we need an scenario where having a 15+ meters tall mech is an advantage. Right now we are our only enemy, and we all fight in the same fashion since a while.
Power armors is the path we are seem to be taking, that could eventually lead to mechs, but I don´t know why or how. I think we need aliens to invade us that wish to eat us and put our brains in jars or angels that which to finish us for our original sin.

Anime has the advantage to do as they please and we are all fine with it.

[squaresphere]

Originally Posted by Tak

Gundam had a very good reason for having humanoid robots, and this had to do with the discovery of Minovsky particles.

Minovsky particles severally curtailed the use of sensors and the output of their projection, restricting their effective distance from double to triple digits at best. It also interrupted the development of communications technology, rendering radio-waves as the only certain method of communication. This meant, most weapons we take it for granted in today's world cannot be utilized in Gundam, such as homing weapons or computer guidance systems. ZZ is an in-verse example, where we found out Judah's home colony was late on receiving the news of TITAN's downfall due to significant Minovsky interruption that prevented information from traveling.

Therefore, most combat was limited to CQC, or at best, as far as the eye can see. Thus, as they found out (in verse), that humanoid robots was able to carry more firepower than conventional platforms, mobile suits quickly became the primary tools for war. Moreover, this is also the reason why New Types were so important. If trained as pilots, New Types were able to sense at a greater distance than most conventional tools would allow, even if in comparison, their abilities are still a far cry from what the technologies in Macross can accomplish.

- Tak

hmm... i'm not seeing where having legs is necessary. Actually wasn't that the point of the mobile armor arms race? The armors dropped the humanoid factor in space cause there was no point.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by squaresphere

hmm... i'm not seeing where having legs is necessary. Actually wasn't that the point of the mobile armor arms race? The armors dropped the humanoid factor in space cause there was no point.

I can also argue why it is unnecessary for Battloids to exist in the Macross verse. Battloids weren't meant to take over Zentradi ships, that was not its primary purpose. It was to engage in CQC against the Zentradi.

But I digress. Nonetheless, having legs allow mobile suits to maneuver more freely with leg thrusters in space whereas a Mobile Armor carries more armament and a larger power capacity, but also very expensive. There is a reason why MA never saw mass production.

However, there was no mobile armor arms race, there was a massive Mobile Suit arms race. In the original MS Gundam, the Federation hastened their MS development after witnessing Zeon's ZAKUs in action, but no Federation MA saw official production until after the one-year war. Even during the post-war period, the Federation still produced far less MA altogether compared to what Zeon deployed during the one-year war. Not to mention MA was originally a competing chassis to Mobile Suits that later became a complimentary part to Mobile Suits.

Not that I am legitimizing the use of real robots mind you, but I hardly consider one reason for their existence to be superior to another.

- Tak

[CrowKenobi]

Even with this interesting history of "Real Robot," let's try to not go too far afield.

Also, let's not get snippy with each other over nitpicky details, okay?

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Well in the end you don't have to use arguments and precedents because is you are smartest guy (lol) around. That's indeed convicing.

A meta commentary is like a joke. Certain people with certain knowledge will get it, while others won’t. For example, a man was throwing a joke about a granny and her dog to a group of, say, five friends. After the man finished his joke, only two of his friends laugh while the rest of them say “what does that mean?”. The two friends who laughed get his joke while the others don’t. Does that make the ones who didn’t get it stupid? No. But those who didn’t get it shall not and should not deny the point of the joke just because they didn’t get it. If they do, it will only show their narrowminded-ness by acting “I don’t get it, so it must not exist”.

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

You don't know what will be in ten years, if you think you do it just shows your conceit.

Based on our real-life technology progression and the impracticality of “Real Robots”, yes, I’m confident that ten years from now, we won’t see any military using piloted-giant-humanoid mechas in real battles. And if we see the direction of the world now, many first-world and militaristic countries are more concerned with advancing their own nuclear and spying technology than making bigass giant humanoid robots. You can come back to me ten years from now and see if I was wrong.

*snip*

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by squaresphere

I'm really hoping the new Macross will bring the whole "natural" vs "cyborgs/augments" social debate to the front. There was HUGE potential about how divergent the colony fleets were becoming from Earth.

That was pretty much exactly my prediction for the next series I made some years ago. We'll see if we are correct.

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

A meta commentary is like a joke. Certain people with certain knowledge will get it, while others won’t. For example, a man was throwing a joke about a granny and her dog to a group of, say, five friends. After the man finished his joke, only two of his friends laugh while the rest of them say “what does that mean?”. The two friends who laughed get his joke while the others don’t. Does that make the ones who didn’t get it stupid? No. But those who didn’t get it shall not and should not deny the point of the joke just because they didn’t get it. If they do, it will only show their narrowminded-ness by acting “I don’t get it, so it must not exist”.

Based on our real-life technology progression and the impracticality of “Real Robots”, yes, I’m confident that ten years from now, we won’t see any military using piloted-giant-humanoid mechas in real battles. And if we see the direction of the world now, many first-world and militaristic countries are more concerned with advancing their own nuclear and spying technology than making bigass giant humanoid robots. You can come back to me ten years from now and see if I was wrong.

*snip*

I finaly get it! Sorry I didn't realise you were one joking. Well I am not narowminded enough not aknowledge that.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

I finaly get it! Sorry I didn't realise you were one joking. Well I am not narowminded enough not aknowledge that.

Do you not understand analogy? Just because I'm comparing meta-commentary to a joke, doesn't mean I'm joking. If you don't understand that, I might call it quits.

[Tenzen12]

Well, considering you clearly don't understant sarcasm, I don't think you have right decide what is joke (meta or any other kind) and what not.

But calling quits is first good idea you came with, so I am doing exactly that.

[CrowKenobi]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Do you not understand analogy? Just because I'm comparing meta-commentary to a joke, doesn't mean I'm joking. If you don't understand that, I might call it quits.

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Well, considering you clearly don't understant sarcasm, I don't think you have right decide what is joke (meta or any other kind) and what not.

But calling quits is first good idea you came with, so I am doing exactly that.

Good plan. I HIGHLY encourage it.

[Tenzen12]

I had hunch It became bothersome for others already, sorry for not stoping sooner.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Well, considering you clearly don't understant sarcasm, I don't think you have right decide what is joke (meta or any other kind) and what not.

I'm not "deciding what is a joke". I use a joke as an analogy for a meta-commentary. I don't know how anyone can misunderstand that from my post .

[maximilianjenus]

hey dude, you already called it quits !

anyway, if the argument was about the practicality of humanoid mechas, let's agree that humanoid mechas are currently impractical in real life (we could argue over them being practical in certain scenarios but that's way off topic) and are practical in fiction because in fiction they can make up whatever reason to make them practical, liek minovsky particles in gundam or lasers in muvluv.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by maximilianjenus

hey dude, you already called it quits !

Well, I did say "I might call it quits".

Originally Posted by maximilianjenus

anyway, if the argument was about the practicality of humanoid mechas, let's agree that humanoid mechas are currently impractical in real life (we could argue over them being practical in certain scenarios but that's way off topic) and are practical in fiction because in fiction they can make up whatever reason to make them practical, liek minovsky particles in gundam or lasers in muvluv.

Actually, everybody is pretty much agree that giant humanoid mechas are currently impractical. But Tenzen argued that ten years from now, we can have giant humanoid mechas complete with Lambda Driver used in battles like in FMP! anime which I say very unlikely (if not impossible).

[Yot-chan]

We discuss what's known and what's unknown...

PLUS: MACROSS II!!

http://www.macrossworld.com/6361/mac...tem/#more-6361

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Actually, everybody is pretty much agree that giant humanoid mechas are currently impractical. But Tenzen argued that ten years from now, we can have giant humanoid mechas complete with Lambda Driver used in battles like in FMP! anime which I say very unlikely (if not impossible).

I can see how a smaller humanoid weapons platform (10ft, maybe) might be useful in a urban combat setting, but other than that, without the ability to procure advanced materials, giant robots just aren't very useful at the moment.

Of course, by the time we are able to control gravity, have an equivalent of a star as an energy source and produce materials that can withstand the direct energy output of the sun as in Macross, then maybe we will get somewhere with that idea...

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

We discuss what's known and what's unknown...

PLUS: MACROSS II!!

http://www.macrossworld.com/6361/mac...tem/#more-6361

MACROSS II BLURAY!?!?!?! *gasp*

Wow, good news. I might not be Macross II's biggest fan, but I like the series enough to want a BD version.

- Tak

[Lenneth4]

I loved the romantics songs of macross II
pretty awesome