Ookami to Koushinryou (Spice and Wolf) Manga Discussion

[Vexx]

I'm completely okay with the idea of them sleeping together but Lawrence takes the responsibility strongly in a medieval sense. Any scenario that would be *believable* would have to take their complex relationship into account and their principles on the matter. Most doujinshi don't --- and often read like they were written by a horny 13 year old who doesn't *get* all that (sorry, if I offended any mature thoughtful 13 year olds there).

A doujinshi that took the trouble to set up a believable scenario before they made love would be quite the feat (and it would be whole lot more erotic).

[BashZeStampeedo]

Originally Posted by Attoney

[The] hardest thing is to stay true to the characters of the original story. This is especially hard for Spice and Wolf, since the series involve a lot of character development through interactions and dialogues between the 2 main roles.

True, any series where characterization is predominant tends to be difficult to write for. I don't think that the "economics" concept is a major issue, though, unless the fanfic writer WANTS to focus on that aspect of the series. It would be just as easy to write about any medieval or traveling issue, and there are plenty to go around. It's just too convenient to fall back on trope plots like bandit attacks, especially when there are so few fics to begin with.

I'm actually a bit disappointed that more people don't try to write from OTHER character's perspectives. Not every fanfic has to be about Horo and Lawrence interacting, especially since it's so difficult to capture this aspect of the series. That's why I like the one fic I linked to above - it was a treat to fill in the gap of what Horo and Dian talked about, even if it wasn't necessarily canon.

Originally Posted by Rajura

I guess what I find frustrating is that (snip) I like to be able to relate to a character (snip) when I saw those I felt frustrated and even embarrassed.

Originally Posted by Vexx

Any scenario that would be *believable* would have to take their complex relationship into account and their principles on the matter.

Not to trivialize the discussion, but to me it feels like demanding a narrative from porn. Of course not all doujin are porn, but the problem is that the vast majority are intent on simple wish-fulfillment themes. I suppose you could always fill in the dialogue using your imagination

Still I do agree, it would be nice to find a few doujin, clean or otherwise, that put some effort into the characterization. It's always fun to see someone else's interpretation of the canon when they put some ass into it (and I think I'll keep the unintentional double-meaning there just for fun).

[Vexx]

Its mostly that plotless porn stopped impressing me long, long ago. Put a story into it with believable characterizations and I'm there with popcorn.

[tyranuus]

Hahah, and yet I dont think there are many of those on the market

A relationship between Horo and Lawrence, at least further into the future would be decidedly possible, but I dont think this sort of 'story' will ever manage something with as much depth as these two characters though, they just don't/won't put enough time and effort into it, and whilst they may manage to stay true on one aspect, they will undoubtedly lose somewhere else.

Besides, I dont massively feel the need for it with this story at all, Im happy just finding out what happens to them, the story is heartwarming and endearing enough as it is, without adding this sort of stuff to it, because I dont think we need to have this stuff inferred, they love each other, shes a wolf spirit (and procreation is part of nature) and he's a man...I dont think it was ever a question of what might happen in the future off page/screen, but do we need to be told?

On a related note, the S&W forum has been a bit dead the last week...glad to see some life in here again

[Rajura]

I have to agree about the whole issue of the necessity of things to be inferred. And to borrow from another thread and play off their post (though their's was a in a totally different context), her name is ホロ not whore-o.

I guess that's what bothered me the most... the fact that there are some people who follow the story be it the anime, LN, or manga that I do, but feel they need baseless erotica. In my opinion, she is seductive and sexy enough in all three without the need to make her beg for physical action or placing her into an overtly sexual situation that has nowhere to go but down (literally and figuratively I guess). Also, like I said, to each their own... I don't mean to impose my moral code and beliefs on others. I guess I was just bothered by seeing her say things I would not expect (Vexx, your analysis of these stories seemed to be spot on); the one that curled my toes the most was seeing ホロ saying something along the lines that there was no need to worry about kids if they are just going to engage in sodomy.

I don't expect her to say something like that, and I definitely don't want to ever hear or read her saying that. *Get out of my head you horrible thoughts*

I don't think I have totally or clearly expressed what I mean since we got this little discussion going. It would take me a 15 page dissertation to adequately and in an organized fashion explain things. I know my posts have probably frustrated others because they say to themselves, "But, x, y, and z, thus 1, 2, and 3." I guess in short, I agree that a physical relationship is in general the natural result of a long-term emotional relationship, and while I would like the characters to be together... I don't need fans to tell me their fantasies of how and when their first or subsequent encounters will happen. Especially when ホロ reminds me a lot of someone that I still hold very dear, though we are no longer together. I know it's a dance of a modified transference and counter-transference between me and a given author but still...

I think this is as close as I can come to expressing my feelings on the subject without going on something misinterpreted as a tirade. Thank y'all who have participated in this discussion with me and allowed for the exchange of thoughts on the subject thus far.

[Vexx]

Have a nice cup of hot tea and some cake

[tyranuus]

Or coffee Get a good caramel latte down ya with an extra expresso shot and you'll be raring to go again

Horo doesn't particularly remind me of my ex's, she's a very different character, but as I say above, we have the stories which are heartwarming enough, we can imagine where that might go if we want to, in fact in some ways its an almost inevitability for the future if they continue to remain close, based around who and what they are, if they get close enough. BUT I dont feel we need to be told that, it's not the focus of the story, the story is about thier emotional relationship, not thier physical one (which as of book 1 extends to some finger poking and one horo-crushing hug, a few hints of a crush [and associated body signals] from Lawrences monologues and thats about it ).

Besides god knows why anyone pronounced it whore-o, it's Hoh-row as a more literal way of writing it (with a tiny hint of a d between the first sylable and second because of the way you role your tongue as you say it) . I think people reading it that way just reflects thier own minds

[Darknemo2000]

Originally Posted by Vexx

Saw your PM just now.. sorry about not answering.

Explicit doujinshi is endemic to almost every series in existence - Spice&Wolf is no exception. It doesn't matter HOW innocent the source material is - someone has done a XXX fan manga of it. In fact... more than a few manga artists have done such doujinshi of other works themselves - which results in some quality work (XXX or not), some of which gets officially published in authorized collections.

I've probably seen the ones you came across and yeah... they were pretty shallow. The authors didn't seem to grasp that some more effort into the premise/storyline would increase the authenticity and ergo the eroticism.

I *will* say that, on average, japanese doujinshi does a better job of keeping characters IN character (unlike a lot of Western fan fiction I come across for series like Star Trek or whatever).... but.

But doujinshi are most definitely NOT canon... either they're wish-fantasies... or perhaps speculation about those "between scenes" moments. A lot of them are pretty immature or amateurish.

Forum rules don't forbid discussion of doujinshi... but links to unlicensed material must pass "PG-13" requirements to keep AS marginally safe for all ages (haha... yeah, depends on the clues of the parents).
As usual, a license rights holder may request material be taken down (though I've not seen any anime/manga rights-holders go after fan art, image snaps, wallpapers, etc yet). The final say is up to the OWNER of the AS site - so if you have doubts about a specific link, I'd say ask a mod about it.

Edit: oh and you don't have to worry about the Holo/Horo thing...
If the romaji fight is that bothersome just type ホロ.

Well there are exceptions like Studio's Kamigabuchi's 'Re-Take' (Evangelion doujin) which I think is deeper and better written than Sadamoto's original manga.

Or Monkey's Taste (yeah funny name) group of doujinka's that write Evangelion oujins that are very deep and do not have any sex in them.

There are some good doujins around, some even better than the original source, but they are rare and usually get lost in the sea of porno trash.

[FTGT]

Hi all,

S&W is one of my favorite anime/manga/novel these days and situations and ideas about how it is going to be, keep appearing in my mind. Therefore I also started one fanfiction (which I also posted somewhere in this forum some month ago if I remember correctly). But as some of you already said, it is pretty difficult to meet the right tone in case of the behaviour and conversation between Lawrence and especially Horo.
But nevertheless, if you are looking for some (clean) fanfiction, you can go here:
http://www.fanfiction.net/anime/Spice_and_Wolf/
I havent read too much stories there myself, but it seems to be an interesting place. ^^

When it comes to doujins I abandon all hopes for story, comprehensible character behaviour and logic. It is just used for "satisfaction" of the more "animal" part of the mind. Therefore all the S&W doujins I know of (...and Im pretty sure I hold every little piece that ever faced the surface of the internet ) have not disappointed me at all. It just depends on what you expect.
BUT there is one doujin of S&W that surprised me both in case of quality and "story". It is called "D.L. Action 43" and is even available in english. Compared to the usual fan-mangas it is pretty sophisticated and as someone already pointed out, an interesting plot doubles the erotic part. I can recommend it...

[Rajura]

Originally Posted by FTGT

S&W is one of my favorite anime/manga/novel these days and situations and ideas about how it is going to be, keep appearing in my mind. Therefore I also started one fanfiction (which I also posted somewhere in this forum some month ago if I remember correctly). But as some of you already said, it is pretty difficult to meet the right tone in case of the behaviour and conversation between Lawrence and especially Horo.
But nevertheless, if you are looking for some (clean) fanfiction, you can go here:
http://www.fanfiction.net/anime/Spice_and_Wolf/
I havent read too much stories there myself, but it seems to be an interesting place. ^^

When it comes to doujins I abandon all hopes for story, comprehensible character behaviour and logic. It is just used for "satisfaction" of the more "animal" part of the mind. Therefore all the S&W doujins I know of (...and Im pretty sure I hold every little piece that ever faced the surface of the internet ) have not disappointed me at all. It just depends on what you expect.
BUT there is one doujin of S&W that surprised me both in case of quality and "story". It is called "D.L. Action 43" and is even available in english. Compared to the usual fan-mangas it is pretty sophisticated and as someone already pointed out, an interesting plot doubles the erotic part. I can recommend it...

Yeah, some of those on that site there are pretty good. A couple were just meh. I am happy to see most were able to keep it clean. I stumbled upon that site about a two months back and then some folks around here mentioned it again. I'm glad to see people are still generating material for this. I'd really hate to see this series just die and be forgotten, doomed to cult status.

[Vexx]

Well, *that* probably won't happen as long as the novels are being churned out... but I picked up one of the "official" short story manga collections by other mangaka - arrived today. Some amusing stuff.

Its the one with the rather saucy cover of Horo. Lots of color plates - all by artists and authors via random side-story or what-if bits.

http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E7%8B%BC%E3...6882929&sr=8-1

[BashZeStampeedo]

Nice, Vexx. I hope we eventually get translated versions of those kinds of side-stories included in compilations and artbooks. It's tough to wait patiently, even as the fan translations and official translations progress

[FTGT]

Originally Posted by Vexx

http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E7%8B%BC%E3...6882929&sr=8-1

This is something I somehow definitely have to get from somewhere! And Im pretty sure I know a place where this could be even translated (by fans).
Man, I LOVE THE INTERNET!

[GuidoHunter_Toki]

Originally Posted by Vexx

Its the one with the rather saucy cover of Horo. Lots of color plates - all by artists and authors via random side-story or what-if bits.

http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E7%8B%BC%E3...6882929&sr=8-1

I'm hoping it'll someday get published in english as I'd very much like to read it.

[Rajura]

Originally Posted by GuidoHunter_Toki

I'm hoping it'll someday get published in english as I'd very much like to read it.

I'm afraid that may not happen. From what I've been told (and I have spoken to several folks both in the US and abroad), it is unlikely that this one will get a translation as these "official" books rarely do. I guess there is a small chance if fans outside of Nih. express such an interest and sales of the canonical manga are consistently very strong.

And speaking of that, if anyone is interested, I maybe be able to help you out in getting some semi-canon material that will likely never be compiled into volume form and thus are near impossible for most people to get their hands on. So, anyone feel free to PM me if interested.

I think that's legal... if not, mods please delete that last part of my post, so I am not infracting the rules.

[Rajura]

Stupid regulations... why does the government have to ruin the book cover and make me feel guilty for buying this. I don't want it for the "explict" stuff.
I want it because I like the series... why do they gotta make me feel like a pervert by putting a stupid warning on the cover. You just can't walk up in somewhere and buy a book like that with such a warning without getting a few looks... thank goodness for RS.

But still... that warning box is an eyesore on an otherwise nice cover.

[tyranuus]

Bleh, thats a shame too, the actual cover isnt that bad, and they could have put the warning in a more subtle place.

Im guessing its because of Horo's frequent cases of 'out-of-clothes-but-doesnt-care' during some of the early sections of the story,and the manga is apparently a bit more direct than say the book (which itself was a little more direct than the anime but not much).

Book 2 in 3 months

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Rajura

Stupid regulations... why does the government have to ruin the book cover and make me feel guilty for buying this. I don't want it for the "explict" stuff.

Spoiler for just housekeeping to keep quote concise:

I want it because I like the series... why do they gotta make me feel like a pervert by putting a stupid warning on the cover. You just can't walk up in somewhere and buy a book like that with such a warning without getting a few looks... thank goodness for RS.

But still... that warning box is an eyesore on an otherwise nice cover.

Um, wow... what a lame and misleading warning. I stamp that mark "fail".

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Rajura

Stupid regulations... why does the government have to ruin the book cover and make me feel guilty for buying this. I don't want it for the "explict" stuff.
I want it because I like the series... why do they gotta make me feel like a pervert by putting a stupid warning on the cover. You just can't walk up in somewhere and buy a book like that with such a warning without getting a few looks... thank goodness for RS.

But still... that warning box is an eyesore on an otherwise nice cover.

Actually, I don't think there's any government mandate for content labels on manga in the US. And yeah, it comes across as kind of obnoxious. It's not like it's porn or anything, it just has a smoking hot naked wolfgirl in it.

[LKK]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

It's not like it's porn or anything, it just has a smoking hot naked wolfgirl in it.

Not to mention a girl who looks underage by US sensibilities. In today's increasingly chilly environment towards visual depictions of underage sensuality, be thankful that a black obnoxious mature content label was the only thing that was added.