Morality in Code Geass? Do the ends justify the means?

[Owaranai Destiny]

Originally Posted by flou

I highly doubt making Britannia into a democracy in place of ruling over it as an emperor is one of his highest priorities. As past episodes and recent spoilers have indicated, Lelouch is not going to be morally sound by the end of the series. His goals are more ruthless and sinister. I think the difference between himself and Light of Death Note is that Light-O has delusioned himself into thinking he's a hero of justice and his actions benefit the world. Lulu doesn't envision himself in that way, but pretends to be that figurehead and manipulate his followers into accomplishing his own goals. Light-O thinks he's good, while Lulu knows what he's doing is evil (as his speech at the end of episode 1 implicated).

Speaking from the viewpoint of what has happened so far without the spoilers, the problem lies therein the aftermath IF he does defeat Britannia.

Making the world a better place for his sister is one thing. Maintaining it is the next step. He doesn't have to be completely morally sound to want to take over the reins of ruling of Britannia, which would inevitably make him 'evil', if the spoilers are absolutely accurate without the consideration of any other factors that might hinder such a development.

[Viperus]

Looks like these "I'm Mr. Justice" anime are currently very popular (Jigoku Shoujo , Death Note , even Code Geass fits into that category)

Basicly , they are all morally wrong by God's teachings. But I can't say I wouldn't do the same thing. I don't think you can defeat the people leading the country armed with invincible robots by JUST acting morally. He is in some way evil , but at least he doesn't kill innocent people.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Viperus

Looks like these "I'm Mr. Justice" anime are currently very popular (Jigoku Shoujo , Death Note , even Code Geass fits into that category)

Basicly , they are all morally wrong by God's teachings. But I can't say I wouldn't do the same thing. I don't think you can defeat the people leading the country armed with invincible robots by JUST acting morally. He is in some way evil , but at least he doesn't kill innocent people.

Actually, technically Lulu does kill innocent people... He just doesn't target them specifically.
At least Lulu value human lives as a resource, which mean he doesn't waste them. But Lulu is quite ready to inflict collateral damage when necessary. That's all part of chess, really; you win by taking out the enemy King, and the amount of pieces surviving in the end, from either side, doesn't matter at all.

In politics, it is always about picking the more tolerable evil; people like Lacus Clyne don't really exist I am afraid.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Viperus

Looks like these "I'm Mr. Justice" anime are currently very popular (Jigoku Shoujo , Death Note , even Code Geass fits into that category)

Basicly , they are all morally wrong by God's teachings. But I can't say I wouldn't do the same thing. I don't think you can defeat the people leading the country armed with invincible robots by JUST acting morally. He is in some way evil , but at least he doesn't kill innocent people.

i will disagree with you. while lulu is indeed fighting against britannia, you can see that he is fighting for his cause, and not for justice (while he does have a sense of justice, it's rather shadowed by his own goal).
the irony here is : if lelouch's mother and nunally weren't attacked 7 years ago and were fine, lelouch could be one of the emperor's pawn. (or simply couldn't care less about the world)

and like Vallen said, yes he does kill innocent, but not really on purpose.
yet, if the collateral damage are unavoidable / a necessary, he will do it. (that is his "my end justifies my means", while he won't do anything useless)

[Last_Hope]

I don´t think I could ever do what Light is doing in Death Note. I personally thinks the whole concept of playing God is a bit scary to tell the truth. And besides, he´s aiming to rule the world as a dictator. In Death Note I´m on the police and L´s side.

As for Code Geass I think it feels more justified since it´s a war and so far Lelouch has aimed strictly for military targets. (Or am I remembering it wrong?) If he started aiming for civilian targets it would be different though but so far I think the ends justify the means in Lelouch´s case. He´s fighting another country which has invaded countless others and are aiming for pretty much the same thing as Light in Death Note.

[Viperus]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Actually, technically Lulu does kill innocent people... He just doesn't target them specifically.
At least Lulu value human lives as a resource, which mean he doesn't waste them. But Lulu is quite ready to inflict collateral damage when necessary. That's all part of chess, really; you win by taking out the enemy King, and the amount of pieces surviving in the end, from either side, doesn't matter at all.

In politics, it is always about picking the more tolerable evil; people like Lacus Clyne don't really exist I am afraid.

Maybe indirectly , bacause people are killed beacuse of his rebel actions (killing the whole sector to find the rebels) , but he hasn't directly killed/injured anyone innocent. And about his teammates.....he doesn't use them as decoys. He uses diversion tactics , but he always has a plan how to get the decoys back alive....at least for now

[Dis Astranagant]

I believe what we're seeing here is a sort of change in Lulu's ideas. First off, we see the Black Knights not really affiliating themselves as an anti Britannian faction. At one point, they even helped the Brits by:

Spoiler:

Rescuing the hostages and saving Euphie.

Initially, one could suspect that Lulu's simply bending the rules so that he could gain further support and strengthen a resistance. This position that the Black Knights of Justice took on could create controversy even amongst the Britannians if they were eliminated. This is because their stance is to help those oppressed. Furthermore, their stance also is against those who oppress, but they keep it very general. This makes it easy for Lelouch to change the goals of the Black Knights specifically to Britannian Empire once he has built up enough strength.

However... Lelouch did something I did not expect.

Spoiler:

He spared Euphemia li Britannia when there was a perfect oppurtunity to kill her. Lelouch could've easily made it look like the Japanese resistance eliminated her or even make it look like something more obscure. He has the power of the Geass, that makes it possible for making his victims even commit suicide.

This leads me to believe that his focus has changed from destroying the Britannian Empire to eliminating those who are conducting malicious acts within the Britannian Empire. Afterall, wasn't he the one who said somethingl like:

Spoiler:

I eliminated Clovis because he was killing innocent people.

Of course, this is all hypothetical. His reason for not eliminating her could also have been the fact that he wanted to gain support from within the Britannian Empire so that he could tear them apart internally.

[Anh_Minh]

Nah. Sparing Euphemia was all part of his PR act. If he'd gotten her killed, no matter what it looked like, people would have suspected him.

There are also two other points:
- he had nothing against Euphie. She's never hurt him or even been a murderous tyrant like Clovis.
- keeping her alive left open the possibility of using her against Cornelia later on. If he'd killed her then, Cornelia would have been hurt, but she'd have moved on. Cornelia has so few weaknesses. Why waste even one?

[Dis Astranagant]

True, then again wouldn't Cornelia get into an emotional breakdown if Euphie was kiled? I would call that a weakness. Anyone who is in fits of rage or is just simply arrogant becomes extremely vulnerable to Lelouch's methods.

Furthermore, the royal family is the life source of the Britinnian Empire. At one point or another, if you want to bring that nation to their knees, you'll have to eliminate the royals. Why wait? Keeping them alive is a mistake because even if they're moved from power all it takes is some resistance of Purists to use one of the remaining as a catalyst.

Also if he ever does eliminate Cornellia, it's going to piss off Euphie. Since she has ties to Lancelot's pilot, who was:

Spoiler:

One of the few people who made Lelouch extremely vulnerable at one point.

It's going to create some greater problems.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Dis Astranagant

True, then again wouldn't Cornelia get into an emotional breakdown if Euphie was kiled? I would call that a weakness.

She'd get over it. And then, she'd only be more dangerous.

Anyone who is in fits of rage or is just simply arrogant becomes extremely vulnerable to Lelouch's methods.

I don't think Cornelia is the type to turn her brain off when she's angry.

Furthermore, the royal family is the life source of the Britinnian Empire. At one point or another, if you want to bring that nation to their knees, you'll have to eliminate the royals.

Not necessarily all of them.

Why wait?

To make a chess analogy, it's not mandatory to gobble up every vulnerable piece. And neither is it always a good idea. Sometimes it's better to leave it on the board where it hinders your opponent.

Keeping them alive is a mistake because even if they're moved from power all it takes is some resistance of Purists to use one of the remaining as a catalyst.

Once they're weakened enough, it may be a good idea to stop the bloodbath. If possible, convert the remaining royals to your cause. If not... they won't be worse than normal rebels or criminals.

Also if he ever does eliminate Cornellia, it's going to piss off Euphie. Since she has ties to Lancelot's pilot, who was:

Spoiler:

One of the few people who made Lelouch extremely vulnerable at one point.

It's going to create some greater problems.

Not really. For one thing, Cornelia's the powerful and smart one. So she's the one Lelouch should be concerned about. Euphemia may grow into that someday, but she hasn't so far.

For another, Suzaku is already at the heel of the Britannians. Killing Euphie would only make it more difficult to turn him, not less.

[Dis Astranagant]

Very good points you bring up, you're probably right. Sadly this may cause him to pull a Yagami Light (ie Death Note). Anyways, we'll just have to see how it goes over the next few episodes.

[Varis]

Lulu didn't kill Euphy because he planned on going out there a second later and proclaim to be a champion of the oppressed. It would make little sense to kill of the oppressed before saving them =)

Also, he told Cornelia that he would save Euphy. Keeping credibility is important as a rising leader looking for allies.

[SinsI]

The real morality question in Code Geass is not an abstract question of who is evil or not.
Would Lelouch and Karen be able to attack Lancelot if they knew who pilots it? Would Suzaku be able to attack Zero if he knew his identity? Now, THESE are interesting questions.
I think the answer for the second one is 'yes' - he has no problem attacking somebody that saved his life, so he wouldn't hesitate to kill Lelouch.
Same for Karen - remember that "I know your secret" encounter with Shirley and her reaction.
But Zero - this one might actually decide against it, which makes him the most good guy of them all.

[Last_Hope]

I don´t know about that, since Suzaku is the one of these three that doesn´t want to kill and if he sees who Zero is then that would probably disable him for a while. I don´t think Lelouch will raise his weapon willingly against Suzaku either. But of course they might aswell realize that both of them doesn´t have a choice and still raise their weapons against eachother.

As for Kallen, I would be surprised if she would avoid attacking Lancelot after realizing whom the pilot is.

[evil|plushie]

But...suzaku has killed. Remember all the terrorists he's killed?

[Nightengale]

^

I dunno...he seems to avoid vital spots unlike Cornelia's Death Thrust. Besides, ejecting seems pretty easy and convenient in Knightmare piloting...(( as opposed to Gundams ))

The whole Lelouch letting Euphie go scenario can be summed up easily.

1. Cornelia don't give a damn about regular hostages.
2. To Cornelia, Euphie >>>>> Britiannia Resolve >>>>> Hostages.
3. Euphie is among hostages.
4. Cornelia cannot strike Zero without affecting or possibly harming Euphie, and Zero would be sleeping with the fishes had he killed Euphie since Cornelia would have ZERO (( no pun intended )) reason to hesistate bombarding Zero and his Knights.

[Last_Hope]

True, but as Nightengale wrote he doesn´t seem to only move in for the kill when he attacks and to add to the situation, he knows that Lelouch has a little sister to take care of. For Suzaku to try to kill Lelouch it´ll have to be a scenario taken out of a nightmare for him. Something extraordinary, a turning point where he has no choice.

[evil|plushie]

He did kill those terrorists in the tunnel. Their whole machine exploded

[Viperus]

He killed the terrorists that didn't eject , and the guys in the tunnel. He can't kill Zero because he'd be dead without Zero. I suspect that Lelouch influenced the judges with geass , to release him.

[bond4154]

The comparison between Lelouch and Light seems rather inappropriate to me.

Light has lost sight of his original goals, and has set out to win, no matter what the cost, on the basis of his own personal ambition. He shows little to no emotion, perhaps even glee, when killing innocents or those who pose even the mildest threat to him. Light's prerogative has shifted from "punishing the wicked" to "destroying L". You no longer see any genuine emotion from Light anymore, other than smugness, glee, and anxiety.

Lelouch, however, is quite different. From beginning to end (or, so far as I can tell), Lelouch has been trying to topple Britannia and shelter the weak (obviously from his early experience with the royal family). Like Light, he is willing to act towards a certain means, and he hates losing, but, unlike Light, he does show genuine emotion, including worry for his friends, pity for Kallen in Episode 9 (you can tell by his voice as he says "Is that her mother?" that he was shaken), and when he thanks C.C. He's proud, but not unreasonable.