Code Geass - General Character Discussion

[Jekyl]

Originally Posted by azul120

True, but at the same time, if you watched Stage 23.95, Suzaku also considered himself responsible for Lelouch becoming Zero, when he killed his father Genbu, thereby being responsible for Japan being taken over by Britannia.

It was, though it was still low given that he sold Lelouch out to the very person responsible for how Lelouch was and what he was fighting against, not to mention the man responsible for the occupation of Japan. It was the greater of two evils.

No one responsible for what lelouch had became as much as lelouch himself. Maybe suzaku share the guilt in it (just _maybe_ because i wouldn't trust someone with such a low self-esteem in his judgement about himself). It doesn't justify lelouch though and doesn't mean he shouldn't have been stopped.

About occupation of Japan - at that point it wasn't the worst of two options, the seсond of which is to be annihilated.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Jekyl

No one responsible for what lelouch had became as much as lelouch himself. Maybe suzaku share the guilt in it (just _maybe_ because i wouldn't trust someone with such a low self-esteem in his judgement about himself). It doesn't justify lelouch though for the little genocide he'd maked up and doesn't mean he shouldn't have been stopped.

About occupation of Japan - at that point it wasn't the worst of two options, the seсond of which is to be annihilated.

Lelouch's genocide wasn't purposeful, you do realize?

You're talking about an entirely different thing with Japan's occupation. Suzaku killed his father to stop the fighting, but turning Lelouch over to the Emperor is helping the greater of two evils and making Japan even worse off.

[azul120]

That, and the fact that Charles was the one responsible for the rest of the world getting occupied. Moreover, as Jekyl seemed to overlook in my last post, Charles was the one who originally turned his back on Lelouch when the latter confronted him about Marianne's death and Nunnally's crippling, only to be told he was "dead" and that Nunnally was disposable, and was sent along with Nunnally to Japan as political tools, not long before Japan was occupied, which was what made Lelouch choose his course of action (and not unjustified either; he hated Britannia's policies). And yet Suzaku enabled that very same person responsible to stick the dagger through Lelouch's back even further by erasing those memories of his that defined who he was, and take away Nunnally from him and use her as a pawn against him.

[Jekyl]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Lelouch's genocide wasn't purposeful, you do realize?

You're talking about an entirely different thing with Japan's occupation. Suzaku killed his father to stop the fighting, but turning Lelouch over to the Emperor is helping the greater of two evils and making Japan even worse off.

It was purposeful in suzaku's eyes. Considering what he'd been told about geass and what he'd seen and experienced himself it's only natural he blamed lelouch. And why than it was 'low' to stop him?

The part about occupation referd to

Originally Posted by azul120

thereby being responsible for Japan being taken over by Britannia.

Stop the fight was the best decision at that point so there is no 'responsibility' to talk about.

Suzaku thought that helping Britannia and trying to rich power 'from within' is a better way for him and japan, that it would cost less sacrifice, lelouch thought otherwise. This is the little disagreement in methods they has. And it wasn't stated who was right and who was wrong 'cause situation changed completely in R2 ep20.

azul120, yes charles was evil and treated lelouch bad and suzaku didn't give a shit about it. Oh - and he was just about to kill lelouch himself not long before, do you remember?

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Jekyl

It was purposeful in suzaku's eyes. Considering what he'd been told about geass and what he'd seen and experienced himself it's only natural he blamed lelouch. And why than it was 'low' to stop him?

It wasn't "low" to stop him, it was low to sell Lelouch out to the man responsible for Japan's current condition, which in turn he is directly responsible for, in the quest for a power he should know full-well he will never attain. Furthermore, everything he does past that point is not excused by the original act. Suzaku betrayed his beliefs at that moment, and really never went back despite his hypocritical claims.

Originally Posted by Jekyl

Stop the fight was the best decision at that point so there is no 'responsibility' to talk about.

Stopping the fight by killing his father was a selfish decision borne of his hatred of violence. He didn't comprehend anything about the larger political climate.

Originally Posted by Jekyl

Suzaku thought that helping Britannia and trying to rich power 'from within' is a better way for him and japan, that it would cost less sacrifice, lelouch thought otherwise. This is the little disagreement in methods they has. And it wasn't stated who was right and who was wrong 'cause situation changed completely in R2 ep20.

Suzaku's way would never have worked, not as long as Charles was Emperor. It would have never even have started if it weren't for Lelouch's rebellion. Suzaku never accomplishes anything. He merely expects to be accommodated because he's obedient. Only after the first season does he even gain half a plan to reach his goals, and it's still a stupid one.

Originally Posted by Jekyl

azul120, yes charles was evil and treated lelouch bad and suzaku didn't give a shit about it. Oh - and he was just about to kill lelouch himself not long before, do you remember?

But he didn't. He sunk even lower and made Lelouch suffer, thereby making Japan suffer, out of revenge. Then he made many more countries suffer by conquering them in the name of Britannia.

[azul120]

Yet again, what morbosfist said. (He keeps getting back before I do.) Not to mention that Suzaku very well should have given a shit, as you put it, because he was the very person Lelouch and Nunnally were sent to live with after Charles had exiled them. And back when they arrived, Suzaku infact hated everything Britannia stood for and wanted nothing to do with anyone from there, let alone royalty, and treated Lelouch like dirt as a result until he really got to know him, after which they became best friends. Suzaku very clearly knew what Lelouch had been through, and still chose Charles, the man responsible, over him. Suzaku did have his reasons to loathe Lelouch at the end of season 1, real and perceived, and yet those still weren't ample justification behind what he ultimately did.

[snowdevil_crow]

I think Kanon was... gay. Yeah. Rolo was apparently not supposed to have those implications around his character, but the staff admitted (perhaps jokingly?) that... he really does seem to have them.

Also, yvj, that's kind of an offensively stereotyping comment... :/

[yvj]

Originally Posted by snowdevil_crow

Also, yvj, that's kind of an offensively stereotyping comment... :/

Edit: Which comment did you find offensive? Sigh took it down to save myself the trouble.

Spoiler for The Defense:

1) You should have been at the pride parade where people acted normally with pride. I was there I saw it.

Honestly I found the more extreme acts chuckle worthy. But I also laugh stuff at stuff like two girls one cup. so yes I'm immature.

2) That song was played that weekend and is a favorite of my gay friends. For camp value.


3) I like the song


4) Yaoi fan pics I didn't make them.


5) Bruno comes out this summer. I'll be watching.

[azul120]

There always was a whole lot of sibcon though in CG, so Rolo's level of attachment, especially given his level of instability, was never much of a surprise.

[Nogitsune]

I kind of agree with Jekyl concerning the "guilt" thing.
Neither Lelouch nor Suzaku started out wanting to hurt the other, and even though they did it anway, I wouldn't say that any of what Lelouch did is really Suzaku's fault. But I also think the same is true the other way around.
As far as I'm concerned, people should take responsibility for their actions. I never wanted either Lelouch or Suzaku to die a slow, gruesome death for what they did, but if we want to play the blame game again, I'd say it's either those two themselves or the nun. Or Charles, because someone who can kick the puppy like he did deserves to be at fault.
You can always blame someone else, to some degree. People (and anime characters) usually don't wake up one morning wanting to kill other people. Hell, I could even try to blame Lelouch for Clovis becoming a bastard because he didn't return to Britannia after the invasion of Japan.
In the end, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

I kind of agree with Jekyl concerning the "guilt" thing.
Neither Lelouch nor Suzaku started out wanting to hurt the other, and even though they did it anway, I wouldn't say that any of what Lelouch did is really Suzaku's fault. But I also think the same is true the other way around.

Suzaku killing his father was more the indirect cause to what was arguably the straw that broke the camel's back, that is, if it hadn't been broken already. Lelouch already hated Britannia and his father well enough.

As far as I'm concerned, people should take responsibility for their actions. I never wanted either Lelouch or Suzaku to die a slow, gruesome death for what they did, but if we want to play the blame game again, I'd say it's either those two themselves or the nun.

The difference is that in the end they realized that they were both at fault for various things and took responsibility for their own actions, as well as those of other people who were also at fault. Though admittedly not in the most prudent way possible.

Or Charles, because someone who can kick the puppy like he did deserves to be at fault.

Yeah. Just cut out the middlemen, willing or otherwise, and go straight for the source.

You can always blame someone else, to some degree. People (and anime characters) usually don't wake up one morning wanting to kill other people. Hell, I could even try to blame Lelouch for Clovis becoming a bastard because he didn't return to Britannia after the invasion of Japan.
In the end, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

The thing is, there were people either just as much or even more at fault than Lelouch and Suzaku, and were so willingly to boot. At least Lelouch and Suzaku wanted to change things, though they were frequently deterred by selfishness, naivete, and/or emotional outbursts.

And lest we forget, Lelouch didn't return to the homeland because he feared he and Nunnally would be used as pawns again, and more importantly that he had gotten a good, hard look at Britannia's dark side and not only wanted nothing more to do with it, but also saw it as a scourge to the world and swore to destroy it.

[Jekyl]

I terribly sorry for being party killer, but I had to.

Spoiler for quite a wall of text:

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Stopping the fight by killing his father was a selfish decision borne of his hatred of violence. He didn't comprehend anything about the larger political climate.

For God's sake, he welcomed Lelouch in Japan with spin kick and then threaten unarmed boy with shinai, he clearly didn't mind some violence in the past. It's hard to judge about his reasons to kill dad, but it wasn't (non-existing at that moment) blind hatred toward violence.
And it was stated in the anime that at that moment Britannia had very powerful army with their KMF's and pilots and all that Japan didn't, so maybe it wasn't really so stupid and selfish of Suzaku to want to stop pointless war?

Suzaku's way would never have worked, not as long as Charles was Emperor. It would have never even have started if it weren't for Lelouch's rebellion. Suzaku never accomplishes anything. He merely expects to be accommodated because he's obedient. Only after the first season does he even gain half a plan to reach his goals, and it's still a stupid one.

So... It's stupid because would never have worked as long as Charles is emperor, but it had worked (thanks to Lelouch and his rebellion, thought it's not like to rise rebellion is something exclusively for Lelouch), but it's stupid nevertheless.
I can't get your point, honestly.

It wasn't "low" to stop him, it was low to sell Lelouch out to the man responsible for Japan's current condition, which in turn he is directly responsible for, in the quest for a power he should know full-well he will never attain. Furthermore, everything he does past that point is not excused by the original act. Suzaku betrayed his beliefs at that moment, and really never went back despite his hypocritical claims.

But he didn't. He sunk even lower and made Lelouch suffer, thereby making Japan suffer, out of revenge. Then he made many more countries suffer by conquering them in the name of Britannia.

Besides revenge there are such a things like duty and sense of justice (which even people who happened to do (a lot of) injustice in their life is not banned from) and the mere need to stop guy who initiate a mass murder in the sake of his rebellion and then fail with it terribly from another try, you know? /end of off top (kind of)
If he didn't kill Lelouch it doesn't mean he get ride of this idea actually. Suzaku didn't know at that moment that Charles has his own Geass, so he could safely assume that Lelouch would be judged and executed for his deeds in homeland. The same thing he originally planed to do with Zero, only with more profit for his plans.
Charles's responsibility for many crimes makes him unpleasant person to make a deal, especially for someone who had suffered from it. But why it is low to put your pride aside for the good purposes?
And he gained some power through it, by the way.

Originally Posted by azul120

Not to mention that Suzaku very well should have given a shit, as you put it, because he was the very person Lelouch and Nunnally were sent to live with after Charles had exiled them.

Lelouch he once knew was kind person who treasured his sister and her happiness like nothing in the world. Zero just killed his other sister in cold blood. Lelouch kind of turned to be complete opposite of himself. And with this he’d destroyed almost everything Suzaku attained and is out to do it once more anytime. There should be some limit for traumatic past excuses.

And back when they arrived, Suzaku infact hated everything Britannia stood for and wanted nothing to do with anyone from there, let alone royalty, and treated Lelouch like dirt as a result until he really got to know him, after which they became best friends. Suzaku very clearly knew what Lelouch had been through, and still chose Charles, the man responsible, over him. Suzaku did have his reasons to loathe Lelouch at the end of season 1, real and perceived, and yet those still weren't ample justification behind what he ultimately did.

So for the past 8 years he changed his point of view from childish (because to think that Britannia is Empire of Evil and having business with it is a no-no because it’s ruled by terrible dad of Lelouch is stupid, egocentric though excusable at certain age way of thinking) to more adult, realistic and open minded one. Is it not allowed to Suzaku?

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Jekyl

I terribly sorry for being party killer, but I had to.

If your definition of killing a party is participating in an entertaining discussion, then there's really no need to be sorry. ;P

For God's sake, he welcomed Lelouch in Japan with spin kick and then threaten unarmed boy with shinai, he clearly didn't mind some violence in the past. It's hard to judge about his reasons to kill dad, but it wasn't (non-existing at that moment) blind hatred toward violence.
And it was stated in the anime that at that moment Britannia had very powerful army with their KMF's and pilots and all that Japan didn't, so maybe it wasn't really so stupid and selfish of Suzaku to want to stop pointless war?

Agreed.
Well, I think it was still stupid, and also a bit selfish... but then again, everything a human does can be viewed as selfish. It seems Suzaku was mostly acting on impulse there, and I think you can't really blame a ten year old for doing that.
Otherwise, you should also consider letting children vote and sign contracts.

If he didn't kill Lelouch it doesn't mean he get ride of this idea actually. Suzaku didn't know at that moment that Charles has his own Geass, so he could safely assume that Lelouch would be judged and executed for his deeds in homeland. The same thing he originally planed to do with Zero, only with more profit for his plans.

Also agreed.

Charles's responsibility for many crimes makes him unpleasant person to make a deal, especially for someone who had suffered from it. But why it is low to put your pride aside for the good purposes?
And he gained some power through it, by the way.

I agree... kind of.
I think Suzaku threw away his pride long ago (and he certainly had noble intentions), but I also think it wasn't such a good idea in his case, and what he did do to Lelouch wasn't nice. At all.
It would have bee more merciful to kill him than send him to be executed by the man he hated so much. But yeah, Suzaku had his reasons as much as Lelouch had.

Lelouch he once knew was kind person who treasured his sister and her happiness like nothing in the world. Zero just killed his other sister in cold blood. Lelouch kind of turned to be complete opposite of himself. And with this he’d destroyed almost everything Suzaku attained and is out to do it once more anytime. There should be some limit for traumatic past excuses.

From Suzaku's point of view, you're right.
Otherwise, I disagree with the "cold blood" part and Lelouch becoming the complete opposite of himself.

So for the past 8 years he changed his point of view from childish (because to think that Britannia is Empire of Evil and having business with it is a no-no because it’s ruled by terrible dad of Lelouch is stupid, egocentric though excusable at certain age way of thinking) to more adult, realistic and open minded one. Is it not allowed to Suzaku?

Signed.
Lelouch had his reasons for not returning to Britannia, but he also completely disregarded his siblings out of anger and hatred, blaming them for his mother's death without any real evidence. Clovis would have supported him and his sister, and so would Cornelia, Euphie and probably some others (maybe even Schneizel, because he really had no valid reason not to and a powerful ally to gain).
Hell, Clovis might even have helped Lelouch staying hidden, because the guy seemed to care a lot more about his little brother than about anything else.
[Edit: Not to mention Lelouch had a much better chance at changing Britannia(/the world) by doing it from within, because unlike Suzaku, he was a prince. And without his Geass, I doubt he would have gotten this far with his rebellion.]

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Jekyl

For God's sake, he welcomed Lelouch in Japan with spin kick and then threaten unarmed boy with shinai, he clearly didn't mind some violence in the past. It's hard to judge about his reasons to kill dad, but it wasn't (non-existing at that moment) blind hatred toward violence.

Except Suzaku himself confirms that this is the exact reason he did it, at multiple points. All he saw was people killing one another and it mortified him, so by his logic people should do whatever it takes, no matter how it would impact their lives, to stop it. That is why he killed his father.

Originally Posted by Jekyl

And it was stated in the anime that at that moment Britannia had very powerful army with their KMF's and pilots and all that Japan didn't, so maybe it wasn't really so stupid and selfish of Suzaku to want to stop pointless war?

Suzaku wasn't thinking about this, so the point doesn't work. You can't treat Suzaku like the omniscient viewer. He only knew that people were dying and he wanted it to stop.

Originally Posted by Jekyl

So... It's stupid because would never have worked as long as Charles is emperor, but it had worked (thanks to Lelouch and his rebellion, thought it's not like to rise rebellion is something exclusively for Lelouch), but it's stupid nevertheless.
I can't get your point, honestly.

Then you're not really trying too hard. Suzaku's entire goal, well before Lelouch ever got started, was following the rules to change things. This would never have worked before he had Lelouch to leech off of, and wasn't working after that, either. This reaches its apex in Turn 20, where Suzaku is told, in no uncertain terms, that a backstabber like him would never be trusted enough to get anywhere.

So no, Suzaku's plan never had a chance, not before Lelouch, not after Lelouch, and nowhere in-between. He was just using it as an excuse to die.

Originally Posted by Jekyl

Besides revenge there are such a things like duty and sense of justice (which even people who happened to do (a lot of) injustice in their life is not banned from) and the mere need to stop guy who initiate a mass murder in the sake of his rebellion and then fail with it terribly from another try, you know? /end of off top (kind of)
If he didn't kill Lelouch it doesn't mean he get ride of this idea actually. Suzaku didn't know at that moment that Charles has his own Geass, so he could safely assume that Lelouch would be judged and executed for his deeds in homeland. The same thing he originally planed to do with Zero, only with more profit for his plans.
Charles's responsibility for many crimes makes him unpleasant person to make a deal, especially for someone who had suffered from it. But why it is low to put your pride aside for the good purposes?
And he gained some power through it, by the way.

Your last bit is my exact point. He sold out Lelouch to the man responsible for virtually all the current injustice in the world solely for power. That's all Suzaku cares about. He doesn't care who he hurts along the way, how many lives he is indirectly or directly responsible for ending, or how many people are crushed beneath Britannia's boot. As long as he gets what he wants, he's justified in what he does. Lelouch is arguably similar in many ways, but the key difference is that he actually cares about the entire world, not just a small sliver of it, and recognizes his own hypocrisy.

Lelouch started a revolution to free Japan, and if it wasn't for Suzaku would have had a much better chance at succeeding. Suzaku, solely for revenge, made the lives of the Japanese even worse, and continues to do nothing while they suffer.

Originally Posted by Jekyl

Lelouch he once knew was kind person who treasured his sister and her happiness like nothing in the world. Zero just killed his other sister in cold blood. Lelouch kind of turned to be complete opposite of himself. And with this he’d destroyed almost everything Suzaku attained and is out to do it once more anytime. There should be some limit for traumatic past excuses.

Even from Suzaku's point of view, which I must stres since the following line is written from it, this isn't Lelouch contradicting himself. He only cares about Nunnally, and Euphie's fair game because she got in the way. He didn't destroy anything Suzaku attained, because the SAZ was not Suzaku's idea (Nunnally is more responsible than anyone). It just boils down to "you killed my girlfriend."

Originally Posted by Jekyl

So for the past 8 years he changed his point of view from childish (because to think that Britannia is Empire of Evil and having business with it is a no-no because it’s ruled by terrible dad of Lelouch is stupid, egocentric though excusable at certain age way of thinking) to more adult, realistic and open minded one. Is it not allowed to Suzaku?

He only grows up after he kills 35 million people and watches God kill Charlie. He's allowed to grow up, but he doesn't do it at any point before the nuke.

[Jekyl]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

From Suzaku's point of view, you're right.
Otherwise, I disagree with the "cold blood" part and Lelouch becoming the complete opposite of himself.

Yes, exactly, I mean it might look like that from his point of view.
Lelouch turned to be opposite of man Suzaku used to know, though it was just part of Lelouch he couldn’t understand at that point. As well as Lelouch couldn’t understand Suzaku’s reasons even when he learned about patricide thing. As a result they acted cruel on each other, but, well, it was just inevitable.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Jekyl

As well as Lelouch couldn’t understand Suzaku’s reasons even when he learned about patricide thing.

Lelouch understood Suzaku's reasons, he just didn't buy into his self-satisfying BS, same as Kallen.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Lelouch understood Suzaku's reasons, he just didn't buy into his self-satisfying BS, same as Kallen.

Basically, yes in a way.
Actually, Suzaku might have had a better heart than Lelouch, as in being softer and gentler. But, this is no way to change the world. You cannot dedicate yourself to a rotten system, and expect to change it from within. That is worse than being naive.
Lelouch and Kallen, did understand, that for a change to come, blood shall be spilled, but this will bring a new era. Suzaku, did not want to spill blood and yet, his hands were stained as well, seeing as Britannia was a huge killing prick machine. And he was a tool of that. //lol, ironically enough, those three charas are my fav of Geass.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Jekyl

Charles's responsibility for many crimes makes him unpleasant person to make a deal, especially for someone who had suffered from it. But why it is low to put your pride aside for the good purposes?
And he gained some power through it, by the way.

Those were the exact wrong reasons to do it, let alone the fact that Suzaku had allowed the man responsible to deepen the damage in both respects: betraying his son Lelouch, who started the rebellion for that among other reasons and ended up the person Suzaku saw at that moment as a result, and allowing Japan to be downgraded into a worse state as an "example". In short, illogical at best, and hypocritical at worst. Suzaku would have likely gained more if he teamed up with Lelouch against Charles. Which highlights the irony in the whole pride thing, because Suzaku was too proud to accept Lelouch's truce in the first place, yet didn't mind bowing to public enemy #1.

As for the power Suzaku gained from that, see the bottom of my post.

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Lelouch had his reasons for not returning to Britannia, but he also completely disregarded his siblings out of anger and hatred, blaming them for his mother's death without any real evidence. Clovis would have supported him and his sister, and so would Cornelia, Euphie and probably some others (maybe even Schneizel, because he really had no valid reason not to and a powerful ally to gain).
Hell, Clovis might even have helped Lelouch staying hidden, because the guy seemed to care a lot more about his little brother than about anything else.
[Edit: Not to mention Lelouch had a much better chance at changing Britannia(/the world) by doing it from within, because unlike Suzaku, he was a prince. And without his Geass, I doubt he would have gotten this far with his rebellion.]

You're forgetting that Lelouch already tried going by the system at age 10 when he confronted Charles about why seemingly nothing was done about the attack that killed his mother Marianne and crippled his sister Nunnally. The end result? Charles told him he and Nunnally were worth nothing, and that very system was predicated on struggles for the royal throne, which disgusted Lelouch to the point where he relinquished his part in the royal family. And then of course Lelouch and Nunnally being sent to Japan as political pawns, followed by the occupation and colonization of Japan on part of Britannia which happened with no apparent concern for their well being, which led Lelouch to hide, along with Nunnally, under the Ashfords' care in order to avoid being used as pawns by either side.

Anyways, regarding his siblings, it wasn't only about the Marianne thing, but the oppressive and corrupt face of Britannia that had also spit on Lelouch. I won't disagree about Clovis, and especially Euphemia (who he was on the verge of a breakthrough with right before his Geass screwed everything up), but Cornelia and Schneizel? They in their own ways represented what he hated about Britannia. Heck, Cornelia already scolded Euphie of all people for trying to change the system with the whole Suzaku knighting thing clearly out of her hatred of Numbers resulting from her stalwart belief in the Social Darwinist system, so would she be willing to see eye to eye with Lelouch? I think not. (And that's even without mentioning her actions and demeanor on the battlefield.)

As for Lelouch's plan getting any traction with or without Geass, it has been noted that it definitely jumpstarted things by several years. Lelouch had simply been waiting until he was ready, and his Geass definitely accelerated the process.

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Except Suzaku himself confirms that this is the exact reason he did it, at multiple points. All he saw was people killing one another and it mortified him, so by his logic people should do whatever it takes, no matter how it would impact their lives, to stop it. That is why he killed his father.

Exactly. The opening monologue in Turn 20 is one of those points.

So no, Suzaku's plan never had a chance, not before Lelouch, not after Lelouch, and nowhere in-between. He was just using it as an excuse to die.

Exactly. Heck, one of the reasons Lelouch wanted to make him Nunnally's knight was to give Suzaku a reason to live according to Lelouch, suggesting the latter already noted Suzaku's inner masochism.

Even from Suzaku's point of view, which I must stres since the following line is written from it, this isn't Lelouch contradicting himself. He only cares about Nunnally, and Euphie's fair game because she got in the way. He didn't destroy anything Suzaku attained, because the SAZ was not Suzaku's idea (Nunnally is more responsible than anyone). It just boils down to "you killed my girlfriend."

To say Lelouch only cared for Nunnally and that Euphie got in the way isn't entirely accurate. He did try to subvert the SAZ, which on the whole was a mere concession from Britannia albeit a generous one for all who were part of it, by intending to Geass her into shooting him, but then he realized how serious she was about the plan. The Geass activating permanently at the wrong time is what really got in the way, and Lelouch was forced to kill her in order to keep her from killing anymore Japanese. Other than that, you're right.

Anyways, it's also important to note that the end result of Suzaku's act in becoming a Knight of Rounds, instead of giving him the power he needed, had all but made a full blown quisling out of him. The Knights of Rounds, barring Bismarck Waldstein, weren't known for being good samaritans. (And that was looking past Bismarck's loyalty to and shared beliefs with Charles.) In spite of his intentions, Suzaku ended up with the nickname "White Death". You do the math. It took a stunt on Lelouch's part with the Million Zero Miracle to trick Suzaku into really doing something noble once again.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by azul120

You're forgetting that Lelouch already tried going by the system at age 10 when he confronted Charles about why seemingly nothing was done about the attack that killed his mother Marianne and crippled his sister Nunnally. The end result? Charles told him he and Nunnally were worth nothing, and that very system was predicated on struggles for the royal throne, which disgusted Lelouch to the point where he relinquished his part in the royal family. And then of course Lelouch and Nunnally being sent to Japan as political pawns, followed by the occupation and colonization of Japan on part of Britannia which happened with no apparent concern for their well being, which led Lelouch to hide, along with Nunnally, under the Ashfords' care in order to avoid being used as pawns by either side.

That's like saying Suzaku already tried to change the system through violence and learned that it would only bring suffering.
The conclusion Lelouch came to as a child is understandable, but that still doesn't make it right or any less egocentric. His father threw them away, so everyone at the court has to be the same, and no one there might still be ready to support them - that's what Lelouch thought. He saw everyone there as his enemy, even those who still loved him.
Also, Lelouch tried to confront his father incredibly openly. That doesn't mean he couldn't have done it a bit more like Schneizel and worked against him in a more subtle way.

Anyways, regarding his siblings, it wasn't only about the Marianne thing, but the oppressive and corrupt face of Britannia that had also spit on Lelouch. I won't disagree about Clovis, and especially Euphemia (who he was on the verge of a breakthrough with right before his Geass screwed everything up), but Cornelia and Schneizel? They in their own ways represented what he hated about Britannia. Heck, Cornelia already scolded Euphie of all people for trying to change the system with the whole Suzaku knighting thing clearly out of her hatred of Numbers resulting from her stalwart belief in the Social Darwinist system, so would she be willing to see eye to eye with Lelouch? I think not. (And that's even without mentioning her actions and demeanor on the battlefield.)

Sure, Cornelia probably wouldn't have started a rebellion with Lelouch, but she would still have supported him and Nunally in the court, as her siblings. Also, no one knows if he couldn't have convinced her - she never took Euphie very seriously when it came to politics; Lelouch, on the other hand, could have tried to reasson with her, especially as Marianne's son.
And Schneizel never really agreed with Charles' ideals. He didn't care enough to do anything about them in the beginning, but I don't see why he shouldn't have supported Lelouch in one way or another, and later on treated him as a potential ally.
Lelouch didn't know Schneizel would create Damocles eventually, and Schneizel didn't know Lelouch would oppose it.

As for Lelouch's plan getting any traction with or without Geass, it has been noted that it definitely jumpstarted things by several years. Lelouch had simply been waiting until he was ready, and his Geass definitely accelerated the process.

I'm aware of that, but really, how should have Lelouch gotten those results without a Geass? He didn't know he would get that kind of power back then, and without it, he'd probably have had much better chances to change something as a prince.

[Jekyl]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Suzaku wasn't thinking about this, so the point doesn't work. You can't treat Suzaku like the omniscient viewer. He only knew that people were dying and he wanted it to stop.

He wasn’t omniscient viewer, but actually was more or less aware about his father’s political course.

Suzaku's entire goal, well before Lelouch ever got started, was following the rules to change things. This would never have worked before he had Lelouch to leech off of, and wasn't working after that, either. This reaches its apex in Turn 20, where Suzaku is told, in no uncertain terms, that a backstabber like him would never be trusted enough to get anywhere.

The words you make reference to were said by Bismarck, Charles’s most trusted man, his supporter and in a way soul mate. And Charles is known for his burning hatred of lie and never trusted anyone. But against his personal antipathy, Charles made Suzaku KoR and trusted him Area 11, which entails some positive changes.
Nunnally trusted backstabber like him, knowing about his lie. No one dare to object to this backstabber when he allowed 1000 Zero supporters to leave the area, though many had the objections. Schniezel never cared about Suzaku’s moral, until he can bring the results.
Charles can be most powerful man in the world, but he is not all power of the world. And well opinion can be changed.

So no, Suzaku's plan never had a chance, not before Lelouch, not after Lelouch, and nowhere in-between. He was just using it as an excuse to die.

Your last bit is my exact point. He sold out Lelouch to the man responsible for virtually all the current injustice in the world solely for power. That's all Suzaku cares about. He doesn't care who he hurts along the way, how many lives he is indirectly or directly responsible for ending, or how many people are crushed beneath Britannia's boot. As long as he gets what he wants, he's justified in what he does.

Why he needed KoR position then? He already had revenged what he wanted to revenge. And he had more chances to die when he was mere soldier.

Since he disliked unnecessary violence so much, I believe, what he wanted was to save as many lives as he can. If it demands to kill 100 people to save 1000 he accepted it, if it demands to sacrifice his own live he accepted it. Though, yeah, if you would prefer to ignore the whole part about his motivations and aims, Suzaku looks like pretty silly masochist who’d changed his pride for the funky blue cape.

Lelouch is arguably similar in many ways, but the key difference is that he actually cares about the entire world, not just a small sliver of it, and recognizes his own hypocrisy.

Lelouch started a revolution to free Japan, and if it wasn't for Suzaku would have had a much better chance at succeeding. Suzaku, solely for revenge, made the lives of the Japanese even worse, and continues to do nothing while they suffer.

Where it is said that Lelouch care about world (before R2 ep.20)?
He made it clear many times, he wants to revenge himself, his sister and mother’s death and to make Nunnally’s life save and happy. He used revolution, OtBK, the world like tools and had no problem to drop them like he almost did in ep.7.
And how the fact that he recognized his own hypocrisy and continued to act hypocritical makes him better?

Even from Suzaku's point of view, which I must stres since the following line is written from it, this isn't Lelouch contradicting himself. He only cares about Nunnally, and Euphie's fair game because she got in the way.

The key word is ‘only’, I think. When you used to know someone like kind, caring person among the friends and siblings, your perception of him probably would be like of kind, caring person, like, in general, not only here and there.

He didn't destroy anything Suzaku attained, because the SAZ was not Suzaku's idea (Nunnally is more responsible than anyone). It just boils down to "you killed my girlfriend."

The SAZ idea was impossible as long as there was terroristic treat against Britannia and no guarantee that area could be kept in order.

He only grows up after he kills 35 million people and watches God kill Charlie. He's allowed to grow up, but he doesn't do it at any point before the nuke.

If by ‘grow up’ you mean ‘became mentally unstable to the point when you loose yourself and can accept everything’, then - yeah, otherwise - no. And how God killing Charles scene made him to grow up?
When I called him mentally more adult I meant that he was capable to see through hatred that Britannia is not the Empire of Doom.

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Lelouch understood Suzaku's reasons, he just didn't buy into his self-satisfying BS, same as Kallen.

Which he demonstrated in his inability to convert Suzaku in Zero’s supporter.
I believe the moment Lelouch really start to understand him is when he learned the true behind his mother’s death and his father’s actions and that all his previous fight was just tilting at windmill, which meant ‘more bloodshed to put meaning in all previous’.