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View Poll Results: Code Geass R2 - Episode 7 Rating | |||
Perfect 10 | 135 | 39.82% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent | 85 | 25.07% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good | 58 | 17.11% | |
7 out of 10 : Good | 29 | 8.55% | |
6 out of 10 : Average | 16 | 4.72% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average | 6 | 1.77% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor | 4 | 1.18% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad | 1 | 0.29% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad | 2 | 0.59% | |
1 out of 10 : Painful | 3 | 0.88% | |
Voters: 339. You may not vote on this poll |
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2008-05-24, 02:21 | Link #1301 | ||||||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 35
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It would probably be accurate to say that Suzaku wants to help the Japanese out of a sense of atonement, although even then he showed evidence of caring about the people as a whole before he even killed his father. In that sense, though, wouldn't having a genuine reason for wanting to help the Japanese just increase the likelihood of him going through with it? As little as Suzaku has done, thus far, Lelouch has done even less (got a bunch of elevens massacred, Area 11 demoted into a correctional area, hasn't even got his one roomed country right now) so I wouldn't say 'results' are necessarily a good measure right now. Quote:
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As for your bet, seriously, I'm willing to take it. Suzaku won't die an ignoble death (if he dies at all), and Lelouch will never get to talk down to Suzaku like he's some deluded fool working against his own dream. $50 on the former, $50 on the latter, you game? (Canadian money, though.) |
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2008-05-24, 03:37 | Link #1302 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 35
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All Suzaku said after Lelouch returned the phone was "I'm sorry. I seem to have caused a misunderstanding." And regardless of whether or not he told Nunally he'd let her speak to Lelouch, he actually did end up doing that, so that wouldn't be a lie. Direct evidence wise, Suzaku hasn't lied any more to Nunally than Lelouch has. But that's beside the point.
The point is, Suzaku seems to be keeping Nunally in the dark right now for her own best interest (and maybe even Lelouch's). Telling Nunally about Zero's identity would inevitably lead to telling her about (what Suzaku knows of) the SAZ, which would likely be enough to cause her to stick with her plan, meaning Suzaku's interests are not threatened. Given this reasoning, it would be a bit of a jump for Suzaku, who thus far has been protecting Nunally, to suddenly do something 'worse'. |
2008-05-24, 07:00 | Link #1303 |
Ghostly Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Singapore
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I think that Suzaku has changed from R1 to R2.
In R1 he needed a reason for what hes doing to be 'correct' before he'll carry it out. By refusing to join OotBK and claiming that Zero's methods are 'wrong', I take it as an implication that he believes what he's doing is the 'right' thing. Basically hes going by the end does not justify the means argument. In R2, he has given up on the moral game. To achieve results, doing 'wrong' things does not matter. By selling lelouch to lelouch's worst enemy for a promotion, he now thinks that the end justifies the means. Him being mad does not come in here, since if revenge is the only thing pushing him, he would have killed lelouch there and get it done with. From thinking that end does not justify the means to end does justify the means, I take this as a change in character for Suzaku. @Sol, this nice going conversation would fit nicely into the Suzaku character discussion thread.. and pls be a little less personal in ur replies
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2008-05-24, 07:22 | Link #1304 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
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Sorry for interrupting such a wonderful debate, but I'm not dropping the issue.
KrimzonStriker: I was not exaggerating. You were adressing Sol Falling's amazement at people saying Suzaku was turning into a monster with a quote implying it was his true nature. I simply asked for a clarification of things. Thanks for quoting the exact words, but I still don't see how they imply that Suzaku is supposed to turn into a 100% evil bastard yet. Nothing is that clear-cut in this series, if you're willing to accept Lelouch as a grey character, stop trying to put Suzaku in the "OMG Evil" category. Quote:
Yes, when he first meets Lelouch, Suzaku acts like a brat. But he also happens to run away in shame when he notices Nunally is blind, after Lelouch attacks him. Yes, he acts arrogant when Lelouch is bullied, but he also saves his butt right there and then. He was the one who made Nunally (and Lelouch) smile and laugh for the first time after their mother was murdered. He was the one who answered "Japanese, Britannians, what does it matter!? If I want to look for her then I'm looking for her!" to Lelouch's "Won't you Japanese please keep your opinions to yourselves?" And if he can apologize to Lelouch and cry about his story after less than an hour spent with Nunally, then I'm sorry but I can't really see him as anything but a kind-hearted kid. Are you trying to tell me Suzaku was a horrible person his whole childhood, and that his good traits only magically appeared with Lelouch's arrival? They were not that different as children, just like they are not that different now. Stop trying to put everyone in boxes and leaving them there. And before you attack me with a thousand quotes making Suzaku an eeeeeviiiiiiil child, I'll have you note that I'm not saying he's an angel - because he most certainly isn't - just trying to balance things a little, because you're trying too hard and your bias is showing. [EDIT] Ah yes, we're getting a little off-topic there. Sorry! ^^; |
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2008-05-24, 09:18 | Link #1305 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Blue Raider Nation
Age: 38
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Euphemia was all the emotional pain he could feel, so that just leaves physical pain or suffering in his mind. This is more for the Suzaku thread though. |
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2008-05-24, 09:27 | Link #1306 | |
A Proud Lolicon
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: In front of my computer
Age: 37
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As I said, put yourself in Suzaku's position, and think. You guys just talk in 3rd person view, and all you see is "Lelouch's awesome, Suzaku is a bastard".
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Last edited by Duo Maxwell; 2008-05-24 at 10:31. |
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2008-05-24, 10:39 | Link #1307 | |
A Proud Lolicon
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: In front of my computer
Age: 37
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2008-05-24, 18:46 | Link #1308 | |||||||||||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
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I thought he got rid of that guilt though, that sense of atonement over what he did to them and how he killed his father? Now a days, he isn't really helping them as much as suppressing them which amount to him basically saying "I'm doing it for you're own good" like he did before when he killed his father, he took his own views and force it upon them, has still been doing that ever since. As for Lelouch, he's had his ups and downs, but I wouldn't measure his accomplishments as none results, he's killed two members of the Britannian Royal family, sent fear into the heart of his enemies, destroyed entire armies worth of Britannian forces, created an organization that based on the previous results has demonstrated a very viable capability of defeating Britannia once and for all which has brought Japan hope for the first time. Even with his failures, Lelouch has accomplished far more then Suzaku, who has at best maintained the status quo with his. Quote:
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You guys can keep your bet, I'm not making any predictions on anything, I simply make observations Edit: Quote:
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Basically, while not the whole picture of what the characters are like, it helps imply the core nature of their characters and what they built everything else up on, but in essence this is still the most essential aspect of their make-up and in which direction the staff wants to eventually portray them as. Quote:
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It's not really off-topic I feel, the origin of the discussion was the change in Lelouch and how I moved to support that this was a step toward showing his real self and nature from the overly dark persona he's displayed most of the time up to now in the series, versus the changes in the once 'righteous' Suzaku who always said he would pursue things through the correct means, but has as of late been pushing the envelop quite a bit in that regards to how he usually acts. Basically, it's a reversal for the two characters, both in terms of the roles they played against each other and going back to who they both essentially are, which I believe will provide more substance in why and how they will conduct themselves in future episodes.
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Last edited by KrimzonStriker; 2008-05-24 at 19:31. |
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2008-05-25, 01:30 | Link #1310 |
Good-Natured Asshole.
Join Date: May 2007
Age: 34
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Slight jab into the discussion, pardon me. I would like to offer my latest edition of Code Geass R2 Abbreviated.
Nunnally: Guess what, Brother? I'm signing up for the deadliest job in history since Hogwarts Defense of the Dark Arts Teacher! Zero: No! What?! Why?! Nunnally: Because I think Zero's wrong and my brother's right! Besides, what's the Emperor gonna do? Emperor: We are so going to kick God's ass. Suzaku: Sup, my next wife? Zero: OH GOD! THEY'RE KICKING YOUR ASS! Rolo: Ah, you woke up while I was watching you! Nunnally: Hello all of Japan! Here's what I think would make all of you happy! Emo Lelouch: Ugh...need cheap entertainment...circuses, drugs, and a girl, now. Kaguya: That's totally cool, honey! C.C.: So we're all his wives now, what? Rolo: Is it my turn yet? Kallen: Yeah, but at least stop <3ing your sister so much. It's bad for you. Zero: You're RIGHT! I shall carry on and do this for EVERYONE! REVOLUTION. My anti-drug! Suzaku: Oh wow, the ocean looks like my bathtub now! Kind of lame this time. Oh well. >_>;; |
2008-05-25, 12:56 | Link #1311 | |
Om nom nom nom
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: In a pinepple, under the sea
Age: 32
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Lmao, funny. |
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2008-05-27, 09:37 | Link #1312 | |||
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Join Date: Apr 2008
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I am not going to find you quotes to try and put them up one against the other in some kind of contest and say "oh look, Suzaku was clearly the best bastard as a kid, but Lelouch sure gave him a run for his money", because for one I seem to remember mentioning that I didn't like to put characters into such categories as "good" or "bad" (especially as kids, come on) and then because I am aware that Suzaku is portrayed as a bit of a brat at first. The thing is, I'm not trying to prove Lelouch was a bad kid, just that Suzaku was not an "asshole" as you put it so nicely a few pages back, and using Lelouch as a comparison. I was saying in an earlier post that most of us here are apparently ready to give Lelouch excuses for anything. Well, there you go. Lelouch as a kid refused to let any and all japanese touch his sister, and it just means he was a caring brother. Had this been Suzaku? You'd be using this very argument to prove that he was a filthy racist. See what I mean? Sure, it doesn't prove he was a "bad kid", especially compared to how Suzaku is portrayed in the first Sound Episodes. But while you're apparently willing to focus on his good traits only (good and caring brother, very much aware of the political situation) you're also willingly ignoring Suzaku's later apologies and nicer moments in favor of his so-much-more-convenient attitude at Lelouch's arrival. Why would his "real self" be limited to how he behaved when he met Lelouch? He only started "pretending" after his father's death, so anything before that is part of his personality too, and I do believe it unfair to ignore his nicer traits just because we witnessed them after Lelouch came to Japan. (And though we are not given a very flattering first impression of him, I think his main fault was ignorance - about many things, but mostly about Lelouch himself (who was a bit more mature then, especially after the tragic events he had already gone through) and his way of handling things). And the way he reacts to Nunally's story, the other examples we have of his days with Lelouch, and the very fact that he became Lelouch's best friend in such a short time proves that yes, he also happened to have a good heart when it comes down to it, which is what you disagreed with the first time I mentioned it. I don't think we can really judge the kid selves of either Lelouch or Suzaku by what few glimpses we have of their childhood - especially before they met each other - but the really nasty impression you seem to have of Suzaku as a kid is what I find exaggerated. Because if you're willing to call him an "asshole", focusing on his bratty attitude only and pointing out how so much better Lelouch was back when they met, then yes, it is my opinion that you are biased. It's one thing to try and prove that one of the two characters is "lighter" than the other, it's another to deliberatly ignore the good traits in one while pointing out another's repeatedly. Quote:
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2008-05-27, 10:00 | Link #1313 | |||||
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Join Date: Feb 2008
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2008-05-27, 10:38 | Link #1314 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
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I'm going to do this quickly and simply, because I have other things to do than trying to make you see that like a whole lot of people here you have an interesting bias towards our main character.
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With that said I think I'll just give up on you dear. Have a nice day! |
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2008-05-27, 10:50 | Link #1315 | ||||
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Join Date: Feb 2008
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Vague, it seems pretty clear to me, and I feel you're the one who isn't seeing it however. Typical really, a lot of people will just try to explain away or simply ignore the evidence because they don't want to deal with the implications to their self-supported world. Well, unfortunately for you there is another world out there that we have to abide by but it does not have to for us. >_> Quote:
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I give up on you myself friend, but the purpose of this argument has been fulfilled, I put in a strong argument that leans favorably in my direction for others to read and understand which is good enough for me even if you can't see it
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2008-05-27, 10:54 | Link #1317 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
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I was simply explaining of the reversal of roles between Suzaku and Lelouch and how there were indicators that this would happen in the show and by the staff. And if you want walls of text you should see the stuff me and Var put out against each other over C.C a while ago in the Romance thread
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2008-05-27, 11:00 | Link #1318 | |
「Darkly Charismatic 」
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: The Lounge
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I know, I already gave up on that thread
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