Macross Delta - Windermere/NUNs War Discussion

[Mistyclear]

Originally Posted by Tak

Could someone please answer me, in your opinion, just how much damage can the Wind accomplish before it becomes unacceptable?

- Tak

If their actual goal (and not just an assumption on part of Chaos/NUNS and I want to hear they themselves state it rather than just the liberation stuff they've been talking about (to be honest their idea of liberation confuses the hell out of me though I am clear on (in my opinion) liberation does not equal mass enslavement as so far their main target has been the military)) is to mind control all the inhabitants of the Cluster
Plus mass genocide of the earthlings (as the Windermerians refer to them).
Also I agree with Kuromitsu in that I'm totally not okay with Var but I'm not quick to judgement until all the facts and reasonings have been laid down by the Delta creators.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

From Windermere perspective:
Gramia/Keith: Until no human exist in Brisingir Cluster
Roid: Until world's habe been liberated or NUNG are willing to renegotiate.

I wonder about Roid. Obviously he's dedicated to the cause but his cause is slightly(?) different from that of Gramia or Keith. He's also the one who is dedicated to the whole Glorious Protoculture Heritage thing, and who wants a "new wind" to blow across the galaxy. Is he a well-intentioned (for a certain measure of "well-intentioned") idealist making painful decisions for his eventual goal? Or is there more to him?

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by karice67

Of course I'm not saying it is a good thing for people to think it's impossible.

But then the question becomes: so why does Windermere not think that peaceful coexistence is possible? Why did they think that they had no choice but to go to war?

Maybe it's because they're very xenophobic and are having a hard time dealing with the fact that they're not the only sentient race around? Anh_Minh's answer to your questions here could also fit.

Maybe Windermere is simply in the wrong. Maybe they're not meant to be particularly sympathetic. Macross has had antagonists that weren't particularly sympathetic, in my view.

The impression I get from you and other Windermere defenders is that you have this intense need for Delta's antagonists to be sympathetic, as though the show's quality would drop tremendously if they're not sympathetic. A show's antagonists don't necessarily need to be sympathetic in order for that show to be a good show.

That's the difference between you and the other members of the 'Windermere should be crushed' faction and those of us who are waiting to find out the real truth behind Windermere's extreme stance.

Expecting viewers to watch an entire TV show before developing any opinions on its most important characters is a bit much. Frankly, its ridiculous. We may hope that certain characters get better over time, but we assess them in the here and now based on what we already have to work with.

And in this respect, Windermere characters are not being treated any more harshly than any other character is. For example, Mirage has taken a fair degree of criticism for not having done a whole lot so far, and for not having many impressive moments so far. There's hope that she'll get better and get a big scene later on, but until/unless she does, viewer impressions of her will be based on what she's already shown. And if Mirage gets better later on, then maybe I'll adjust my take on her then. But keep in mind that there really is such a thing as "too little, too late". Initial impressions of characters will tend to firm over time if viewers see little reason to change from their initial impression.

We believe that it is quite possible that NUN/the 'colonizers' did something that warrants it -

What if some of us feel that nothing warrants Windermere's nasty xenophobic attitudes and their heavy reliance on Var? After all, there is the old saying that two wrongs don't make a right.

Originally Posted by karice67

Tell me, how is Var a WMD?

Var might not have yet been used as a WMD in this show, but it certainly has the same destructive potential as many WMDs.

In any event, I don't see the big deal in Var being considered a WMD, since I get the impression we all agree that the weapon that caused Windermere's scar is also a WMD. So it's not like we're being one-sided in which weapons we call "WMDs".

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by karice67

Please show me your evidence for that.

You know what, I don't feel like arguing the point. It doesn't matter. Let's say ep1 was their very first weapon test, and that all the other Var incidents, for which Walkure was founded, were some kind of unfortunate coincidence. It doesn't change a thing.

Oh, and also your reasoning for how "on a small scale" in episode one means they have done it on a scale of billions somewhere else, which we haven't been shown.

I haven't claimed they've killed billions yet.

See, it's like this: they can, and have, used the Var to slaughter people wholesale. Maybe not on a WMD scale, but they have killed a lot of people, including a lot of civilians. Mostly to show they could, and would.

They have used the ruins (and Heinz) to mindrape many planets at the same time. That's where my "billions" comes in.

Put the two together, and you get what we've seen in the last few episodes: they use the threat of the Var, the threat to use the conquered planet's own protectors against its population, to hold those planets beneath their heels.

To argue that the ruins aren't part of a WMD is like saying H-bombs aren't WMDs because they've never been used to kill a lot of people. Now, I don't automatically object to WMDs, but you can't deny that the Ragnan ruins are part of a weapon system pointed not just at Ragna, but at their whole corner of space, and that that weapon can kill them all with relative ease. Getting rid of it is therefore the logical move.

But again, is it a WMD? You haven't dealt with the "indiscriminately" part of the definition.

Indiscriminate: "done at random or without careful judgement."

What, so they aimed at those civilians? That only makes it worse.

Originally Posted by karice67

Well, the NUNS guy arrived and apparently went straight to Chaos to give Lady M 'courtesy notice' that they were going to blow up the ruins... If he'd gone to see the Rangan government first, I'm sure someone in the Elysion would have known before he came.

So it's heavily implied that they don't even need to notify Ragna. Or do you think they sent another person to give a 'courtesy notice' to the Ragna government as well?

I'll grant that there is another possibility: maybe any planet that wants to set up relations with with NUN and thus gain access to galactic trade etc, has to give up so much of its sovereignty that it has no say in 'military affairs', even if it's about defending itself.

But if that's the case, then I completely get why Windermere wanted out of that treaty, and wanted the NUN government and NUNS out of the cluster.

I mean, it's like:

"Sure, you're welcome to join the galactic system under our direction and rule. We'll provide you the opportunity to trade, to import fantastic technology, and export your produce. But in return, you have to give up any right to defend yourself, and rely instead on our military that's controlled centrally. Oh, and if we deem it necessary, we can just blow up parts of your planet, since you're part of us now."

That's a pretty funny statement considering that without the NUNG, Wind would be "defending itself" with horses, or whatever equivalent they have.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

That's a pretty funny statement considering that without the NUNG, Wind would be "defending itself" with horses, or whatever equivalent they have.

That is a good, and darkly amusing, point. It's fun to imagine that Macross Delta is a popular TV show on Star Trek Earth, created to reinforce the Prime Directive. I don't know if I've ever seen a TV show that justifies Star Trek's Prime Directive to the degree that Delta does.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

That is a good, and darkly amusing, point. It's fun to imagine that Macross Delta is a popular TV show on Star Trek Earth, created to reinforce the Prime Directive. I don't know if I've ever seen a TV show that justifies Star Trek's Prime Directive to the degree that Delta does.

According to Star Trek's own sources, the Prime Directive has only a negligible benefit to society. A major point is that dozens if not hundreds of civilizations have actually died out while the Federation watched, while doing nothing to help them.

The Prime Directive is the ultimate Libertarian Ideal for better or worse; if you can't pull yourself up by the bootstraps, we will let you die in a ditch. The result is that there are as many planets saved by it as are died by it.

The only positive is that it gives the Federation the moral justification to not help people.

I guess it could be worse; the Bird Humans of Macross Zero went one step further, and decided that if Earthlings obtained Space Travel while still waging war then they are better off exterminated. That's rather harsh, because I don't think ANY sentient races in Macross had managed to eradicate warfare. Maybe the Bird Human aliens just hate war that much.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

According to Star Trek's own sources, the Prime Directive has only a negligible benefit to society.

Given the Butterfly Effect, how could such a "negligible benefit to society" determination ever be made? How can you tell which alien species might misuse the wondrous new technology given them? You may just end up empowering ambitious warmongers that want to conquer the galaxy.

The point of the Prime Directive isn't a Libertarian Ideal. The point is that a sentient species at a certain technological level may well get overwhelmed by the cultural/technological shock of meeting a much more highly advanced alien race (and making use of their tech). That it could upset their natural development/evolution, or potentially pose a risk to other alien races. An analogy that could be used is that it's like handing a highly complex and potentially lethal piece of equipment to a young kid, who has no knowledge of how or why it works. There's clearly a big risk being taken here.

Star Trek's Prime Directive essentially argues that such risks just aren't worth it. Perhaps NUNs should have made the same decision when it comes to Windermere.

[Darthtabby]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Maybe it's because they're very xenophobic and are having a hard time dealing with the fact that they're not the only sentient race around? Anh_Minh's answer to your questions here could also fit.

Xenophobia seems like a rather natural reaction for people whose experience with outsiders has been dominated by disrespect (something triggered that independence war) followed by mass death and devastation.

That being said, the creators have noted that finding out that their short life span is not the norm caused an existential crisis among the Windermereans. Put that together with some actually legitimate grievances against outsiders, and you have a fertile breeding ground for toxic ideologies like "we are the true heirs to the protoculture." (It probably doesn't help that those who make that claim can point to Sigur Valens to back it up.)

The impression I get from you and other Windermere defenders is that you have this intense need for Delta's antagonists to be sympathetic, as though the show's quality would drop tremendously if they're not sympathetic. A show's antagonists don't necessarily need to be sympathetic in order for that show to be a good show.

Their prominent billing in promo art is one reason why I'm inclined to think that they're meant to be sympathetic antagonists (the Aerial Knights were basically given the same prominence as Walkure in some of the early stuff). Plus they've got their own perspective manga. The creators also seem to have made a point of giving them some actually rather legitimate grievances. Also I don't just want to find them sympathetic, I'm actually able to find them sympathetic, particularly particularly Cassim whose entire family was wiped out.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Darthtabby

Their prominent billing in promo art is one reason why I'm inclined to think that they're meant to be sympathetic antagonists (the Aerial Knights were basically given the same prominence as Walkure in some of the early stuff). Plus they've got their own perspective manga.

That's nice. Perhaps I can interest you in a couple of comics, then? :

Spoiler for Very cool comics!:

You're free to feel however you do about Windermere, Darth. But the same goes for the rest of us.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Given the Butterfly Effect, how could such a "negligible benefit to society" determination ever be made? How can you tell which alien species might misuse the wondrous new technology given them? You may just end up empowering ambitious warmongers that want to conquer the galaxy.

You deal in what may or may not happen. I deal in the very real truth that the Prime Directive gave the Federation the right to watch intelligent sentient races die and not raise their hand to help. And the result is hundreds of dead civilisations, some of which just might have been able to contribute to society if only they were given a chance.

Earth in Star Trek was an edge case; remember that Earth was just about to become a part of the statistic, and only a single man's research saved humanity from dying out. Humanity SHOULD have gone extinct; we were not able to work together and society was collapsing. But one mad scientist ended up creating the warp drive on his own, and then the Vulcans saved humanity with their technology after that.

How many other Earths just like our own, in our position, perhaps even more deserving of help, disappeared into the dust? To assume that all the hundreds of races were unworthy of existing, is rather questionable since Star Trek Earth barely passed and really had no right to judge others. Earth in Star Trek was saved by the action of one man, humanity itself had flunked its test.

In contrast, we have the Tenchi Muyo universe; in that world, Earth is actually a nature reserve. The human race was a former colony of the great Jurai Empire, and the planet had been politically shielded from alien invasions because Jurai protected us. But THEIR version of the Prime Directive is that they deliberately kept 90% of the human population in the dark about the fact that there is a massive city on the dark side of the moon, that the telephone system is hooked up to the galactic network and has its own area code, and that the 10% who know about the aliens are basically the ones running the planet.

The fact that the 10% who know about aliens have a lifespan more than 10 times that of the ignorant 90%, makes it seem like an abuse. In Tenchi Muyo Earth is left as a primitive society pure because it is a Reservation, a place that is left untouched because it is nice and quaint. With a lack of decent medicines or FTL travel or supersoldier serum or anything else, that the rest of the galaxy took for granted.

Yes, uplifting a primitive race has risks. But I would argue that it is morally irresponsible to assume a primitive race is guilty until proven innocent. A primitive race isn't doing anything wrong for being primitive, and it is rude to assume they were less worthy of having access to technology that could improve their lives.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

You deal in what may or may not happen.

With questions of this nature, of course I do. It would be ridiculously imprudent to ignore such issues.

In any event, it's not about any Libertarian Ideal. It's about the legitimate concerns of what unpredictable effects may arise from giving a people technology hundreds or even thousands of years more advanced than its own.

The desire to help the less technologically advanced is admirable, but there's also good reason to be very cautious about such things. I can see the rationale for making exceptions with certain species that appear benevolent and peaceful, but the Prime Directive is the sort of rule that when you start making exceptions, the rule is likely to become completely unraveled. And then you may well end up with a Windermere on your hands...

Now, I'm not firmly in favor of the Prime Directive, as I do get where you're coming from here. But I definitely see a good argument for the Prime Directive. I like the simplicity and consistency of it, and I like much of the rationale behind it. It errs on the side of caution, which maybe is the right way to go once you reach a certain level of technological advancement. I don't doubt I've been biased somewhat by reading/watching so many sci-fi nightmare scenarios play out in fiction (a good recent example being The Avengers: Age of Ultron movie).

But I would argue that it is morally irresponsible to assume a primitive race is guilty until proven innocent.

You don't need to assume any such thing. You simply need to accept that a highly advanced civilization is not morally responsible for the well-being of any and all civilizations they happen to come across. I think there's a moral obligation to do no harm, but anything beyond that really is a stretch.

[Darthtabby]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

That's nice. Perhaps I can interest you in a couple of comics, then? :

Spoiler for Very cool comics!:

I'm going to go way out on a limb and guess that neither of those comics involve an isolated kid making bonds with the other kids at school or vowing to protect his newborn half brother...

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

You don't need to assume any such thing. You simply need to accept that a highly advanced civilization is not morally responsible for the well-being of any and all civilizations they happen to come across. I think there's a moral obligation to do no harm, but anything beyond that really is a stretch.

I guess I just view entire civilizations as individual organisms; As in, to leave a civilization and watch it collapse is no different from watching a man die.

Do you have a moral obligation to help everyone unconditionally? No. But just because you don't have to help everyone, is not a reason to stop other people from helping if they wished. There is no law stating that you are forbidden to give a starving man food, or a thirsty man water. No one is being forced to help others here, it is the ban of helping at all until the helpless is worthy of being rescued that I question.

Imagine if a poor person could only receive charitable aid and eat in soup kitchens if he has a high school level education? That's the bizarre argument of the Prime Directive. The idea that there is some sort of minimum standard in order to earn help, and that if you don't get to that standard you don't deserve to live.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

The desire to help the less technologically advanced is admirable, but there's also good reason to be very cautious about such things. I can see the rationale for making exceptions with certain species that appear benevolent and peaceful, but the Prime Directive is the sort of rule that when you start making exceptions, the rule is likely to become completely unraveled. And then you may well end up with a Windermere on your hands...

Now, I'm not firmly in favor of the Prime Directive, as I do get where you're coming from here. But I definitely see a good argument for the Prime Directive. I like the simplicity and consistency of it, and I like much of the rationale behind it. It errs on the side of caution, which maybe is the right way to go once you reach a certain level of technological advancement. I don't doubt I've been biased somewhat by reading/watching so many sci-fi nightmare scenarios play out in fiction (a good recent example being The Avengers: Age of Ultron movie).

There are middle grounds where you can help people without handing them a lot of power.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

That's nice. Perhaps I can interest you in a couple of comics, then? :

Spoiler for Very cool comics!:

You're free to feel however you do about Windermere, Darth. But the same goes for the rest of us.

I like the Dr Doom connection. There's a guy who felt disrespected, not necessarily for good reasons, and reacted rather violently.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Var might not have yet been used as a WMD in this show, but it certainly has the same destructive potential as many WMDs.

In any event, I don't see the big deal in Var being considered a WMD, since I get the impression we all agree that the weapon that caused Windermere's scar is also a WMD. So it's not like we're being one-sided in which weapons we call "WMDs".

After seeing what Messer did while being VAR infected but still having control over his senses thanks to Kanames singing, I find it a bit problematic to say it is a WMD or even near to a WMD.

The counter to it are sound forces like Walküre.

For me it's just like pumping extra adrenaline into someone with the flaw that they go enrage when not played with the correct music.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

After seeing what Messer did while being VAR infected but still having control over his senses thanks to Kanames singing, I find it a bit problematic to say it is a WMD or even near to a WMD.

The counter to it are sound forces like Walküre.

For me it's just like pumping extra adrenaline into someone with the flaw that they go enrage when not played with the correct music.

The guys from the occupied planet weren't enraged. They were under the firm control of the Wind.

[ReddyRedWolf]

While we are discussion of the merits and demerits of uplifts in Macross lets get some context first. The Zentradi were the first alien uplift Terrans did. While the majority got satisfied with civilian life some did not adjust well like Quamzin's lot. Zentradi malcontent rebels has been a problem ever since. But there is an added dimension to that. Much like Zentradi on Trad city adopting Kaifun's anti-military stance some Zentradi rebels took in Anti-UN ideology . This can be seen on groups like Black Rainbow in Macross VF-X2.

The Anti-UN has been mentioned twice in Shoji Kawamori's Forbes interviews. The first one is the Kingdom of Wind isn't the Anti-UN but has similar ideals. The second one is that people related to Ant-UN developers of the Sv-51 developed Windermere's Variable Fighters. That they've hidden themselves at the edges of the galaxy. According to Seto Kaiba at MW this is not the first time as the Variable Glaug and Feios had Anti-UN help for Zentradi rebels.

The whole Unequal Treaty mentioned could be a hold over from the Anti-UN. We know that Lt. Uroh spoke at least some Russian suggesting some emigrants were Russian. Some of the Anti-UN were of Russian nationality and some shelters on Russia did survive the bombardment. So much like Zentradi malcontents Gramia and the rest appropriated the Anti-UN ideology.

http://monkeybacon.mywebcommunity.or...lossary18a.php

Anti Unification Alliance
A collective of various powers who opposed the Earth Unified Government. The reason why they didn't adjust themselves to the Unified Government varies according to the power, such as the confrontation between races and OTM concessions because of the [Unified Government's] monopoly on OTM. They unfavourably compare to the Unified Forces, and even though they developed local wars in various places, which were referred to as the Unification War, the Anti Unification Alliance rapidly weakened from the Bird Man Incident. In addition, when the Zentraadi attack on South Ataria Island was concealed, the Unified Government publicly announced that the attack was terrorism by Anti Unification Alliance remnants.

http://monkeybacon.mywebcommunity.or...onAlliance.php

The Establishment of the Anti Unification Alliance
In December 2000, the Unified Government Ideology that was announced by the United Nations was something that would consolidate the organization of the Earth's nations and establish the Earth Unified Government in preparation for an alien invasion. In January 2001, the group of nations that opposed the ideology formed the Anti Unification Alliance.

Caption: The formation of the Anti Unification Alliance was triggered by such things as the conflict for the leadership of the consolidated Earth, bargaining over the distribution of OTM, and ideological and religious problems.

Besides perceived wounded racial pride one of the possible reasons why Windermere resents the NUN is because of its OTM monopoly. Or more precisely holding back export of weapons technology to make them on par with Central/Federal NUNS forces. As seen with Macross Frontier you develop and new VF or a variant you give the specs to Earth for approval of mass production while Earth would not give its most advanced tech. A Earth VF-19A could be on par with a VF-25. Earth has a more advanced ISC design. So Windermere turns to Anti-UN related scientists to develop the Sv-154 and Sv-262.

Roid mentions they can force the NUN to recognize them as true heirs of the Protoculture and treat them as equals. This is pretty much conflict over the leadership of the galaxy and religious ideology similar to Anti-UN reasons for rebelling. Meaning they do not want the Children of the Protoculture uniting under Terran culture but their own.

[Darthtabby]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I like the Dr Doom connection. There's a guy who felt disrespected, not necessarily for good reasons, and reacted rather violently.

I know I used the term "disrespected" earlier, but I took a look at the Windermere manga again to see if it had been updated, and noticed that ten year old Keith's narration describes the Windermereans as having lost their sovereignty after off worlders came. The manga hasn't really explored that angle in the two chapters that have been translated. But it seems pretty consistent with the anime. The portrayal of the arrival of colony fleets on Ragna and Windermere at the beginning of episode five isn't of the newcomers exchanging greetings with the natives. It's the natives looking up in awe as huge colony ships descend from the heavens and ominous music plays. And while the Ragnans seem to have enjoyed good relations with outsiders, the latest episode has a NUN rep from off world declaring that they're going to blow up the Ragnan ruins in spite of the implications that doing so may f--- up the planet.

(Actually, this whole set up is making me wonder if the WMD used on Windermere seven years ago was used by NUNS, with the intended target being the planet's protoculture ruins. The show is not implying that messing with those ruins is dangerous for nothing.)

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Darthtabby

I'm going to go way out on a limb and guess that neither of those comics involve an isolated kid making bonds with the other kids at school or vowing to protect his newborn half brother...

Well, Doctor Doom became friends with Reed Richards at college (for a while) and he made a vow to rescue his mother from hell.

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Could someone please answer me, just how many ways should we put it so that everyone finally understands that

1) nobody here thinks that Var is awesome and is cheering Windermere on, we are merely assuming that they have their own logic and motivations and these are intersting to explore, along with the controversies and ambiguities of the whole situation on all sides and for all characters;

The way some people are defending the use of Var, I think this point of yours is more what you think.

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

2) this is not a real life situation, no real people are being hurt, and not everyone can muster strong feelings about fictional people doing fictional things to other fictional people in a fictional universe where the power of song wins wars;

3) seriously, why are you guys taking this so damn seriously, it's like you're debating an actual war situation that is going on IRL, I understand some people must always fight over something but come on.

I prefer to treat characters and their deeds as I would treat real people, because otherwise what is the point of discussion at all? If you can't draw parallels to real life events, the events lose all meaning.

[aldw]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I guess I just view entire civilizations as individual organisms; As in, to leave a civilization and watch it collapse is no different from watching a man die.

Do you have a moral obligation to help everyone unconditionally? No. But just because you don't have to help everyone, is not a reason to stop other people from helping if they wished. There is no law stating that you are forbidden to give a starving man food, or a thirsty man water. No one is being forced to help others here, it is the ban of helping at all until the helpless is worthy of being rescued that I question.

Imagine if a poor person could only receive charitable aid and eat in soup kitchens if he has a high school level education? That's the bizarre argument of the Prime Directive. The idea that there is some sort of minimum standard in order to earn help, and that if you don't get to that standard you don't deserve to live.

It's would be a logical fallacy to treat civilizations as discrete individuals instead of the aggregate communities that they are, especially since they are inherently more amorphous (both organizationally and conceptually) than biological organisms are.

WRT to the Prime Directive, the approach that is most commonly pilloried is also the approach that is the most bureaucratic, whereas Captains that followed their own counsel such as Kirk or Sisko did whatever actions they felt were necessary, and of which even Captain Picard would in time come to recognize.