Gundam Build Fighters Try - Episode 7 Discussion / Poll

[Tactics]

Originally Posted by monster

It's not about keeping him in the lead, it's about giving a better performance than he did.

And as I've pointed out above, the episode showed that the Destiny was certainly capable of doing more in that battle.

Beam cannon, beam shields and beam rifle detached easily; not even a considerable threat.
It's easy for Sekai to remove Arondight from Destiny hands, beam boomerangs kicked without much difficulity.

Even if the fights moved to the air, even if Shimon keep dodging, it won't much different. Sekai can easily close the distance by Build Burning boosters or air-walk.
He can evade Shimon long-range attacks with ease; the process may different, but Destiny still ends up got its weaponry detached one-by-one, lead to fist fight on ground. Even if the wings survive, Wings of Light output is far inferior compare to the original due to it's snap-build quality; not much different from what we saw, still lead to fist fight.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Tactics

Beam cannon, beam shields and beam rifle detached easily; not even a considerable threat.
It's easy for Sekai to remove Arondight from Destiny hands, beam boomerangs kicked without much difficulity.

Even if the fights moved to the air, even if Shimon keep dodging, it won't much different. Sekai can easily close the distance by Build Burning boosters or air-walk.
He can evade Shimon long-range attacks with ease; the process may different, but Destiny still ends up got its weaponry detached one-by-one, lead to fist fight on ground. Even if the wings survive, Wings of Light output is far inferior compare to the original due to it's snap-build quality; not much different from what we saw, still lead to fist fight.

And it would still show a better performance than it did. The beam boomerangs could've been used as a saber, Destiny was able to tie with Build Burning on their charge so its output isn't weak at all, and it's pretty fast too so it's not a certainty that Build Burning would dominate in speed.

[Tactics]

Originally Posted by monster

And it would still show a better performance than it did. The beam boomerangs could've been used as a saber, Destiny was able to tie with Build Burning on their charge so its output isn't weak at all, and it's pretty fast too so it's not a certainty that Build Burning would dominate in speed.

Really? How significant it'll be? Sekai remove Arondight with ease, why should he scared against a low-quality beam saber?
Kouji's snap-build beam rifle isn't strong enough even to scratch Winning, what makes a snap-build beam boomerang could really scratch Build Burning?

Your point is completely ignore pilot skill also.
Destiny output is weak, but had Shimon boxing skill, which without doubt lead to superior punch.
Build Burning had greater speed, but Sekai, as a kempo user, his style is not concentrated in punch.

Simply put:

Low-quality Wings of Light * (Strong Punch + Low-quality Palma Fiocina) = Shippu-zuki (Sekai's basic punch skill) * High quality Boosters

That's why Shimon chose to stay ground, fight Sekai and Build Burning with boxing style-- his primary fighting style;
Using his punching skill to ensure highest damage output which not even possible to reach by low-quality Destiny weaponry.
His opponent is a black belt in kempo, using a world-quality Gunpla; as said by others, a Gundam gunpla isn't inherently stronger than Zaku gunpla.

Sekai isn't weak also, he may be reckless, but his skill is good enough, even surprising Liutenant Ral at first.

Conclusion, it won't change anything, only happens if Destiny quality is better than just a snap-build.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Tactics

Really? How significant it'll be? Sekai remove Arondight with ease, why should he scared against a low-quality beam saber?
Kouji's snap-build beam rifle isn't strong enough even to scratch Winning, what makes a snap-build beam boomerang could really scratch Build Burning?

Your point is completely ignore pilot skill also.
Destiny output is weak, but had Shimon boxing skill, which without doubt lead to superior punch.
Build Burning had greater speed, but Sekai, as a kempo user, his style is not concentrated in punch.

Simply put:

Low-quality Wings of Light * (Strong Punch + Low-quality Palma Fiocina) = Shippu-zuki (Sekai's basic punch skill) * High quality Boosters

That's why Shimon chose to stay ground, fight Sekai and Build Burning with boxing style-- his primary fighting style;
Using his punching skill to ensure highest damage output which not even possible to reach by low-quality Destiny weaponry.
His opponent is a black belt in kempo, using a world-quality Gunpla; as said by others, a Gundam gunpla isn't inherently stronger than Zaku gunpla.

Sekai isn't weak also, he may be reckless, but his skill is good enough, even surprising Liutenant Ral at first.

Conclusion, it won't change anything, only happens if Destiny quality is better than just a snap-build.

First of all, Shimon's boxing skill wouldn't ensure more damage than the Destiny's "low-quality" arm/body can perform.

Second of all, at no point was it ever showed that the Destiny's output was significantly weaker than the Build Burning.

Finally, the episode showed that the Destiny was fast and could dodge fast attacks, even dodging Build Burning's attack once.

It seems you're too caught up with Ral's words that you're ignoring what the episode actually presented. Shimon lost more due to being a weaker fighter than Sekai, rather than the build quality of his gunpla.

Here are some of his mistakes:

1. Allowing Sekai to gain the higher ground.
2. Choosing to defend rather than dodge a powered kick with a gunpla of standard build quality, resulting in the loss of a weapon.
3. Mishandling the use of the sword, thus losing it.
4. Mishandling the use of the boomerangs, thus losing them.
5. Mishandling the use of his left arm, thus allowing Sekai to grab hold of it, leading to the end of the battle.

[Tactics]

> Skill wouldn't ensure damage

Then, how Seiken-zuki can be so deadly if skill wouldn't ensure damage?
Good enough to heavily damage Miyaga's Enact even while covered with DOM armor ...
There's Chinan with his deadly Chinan Kick, also Nils with Particle Fa Jin in previous GBF.

> No point showing Destiny had lower output

Ral clearly said, Faith is fighting in their lowest possible output due to their Gunpla snap-build quality.
Destiny is also a snap-build, which means, even the Destiny used to fight in this episode is currently in it's lowest possible output there.
Minato, Sudou, Fumina and Yuuma-- also Alan, Mao and Sei in previous GBF sometimes discuss about how build quality can affect performance;

It's a fact, a Gundam gunpla isn't inherently stronger than Zaku gunpla ...

> Shimon is weaker than Sekai.

ROFL. Shimon is national boxing champion, Sekai is black belt in kempo.
Main point in this episode is, Shimon strength is stronger but he's using lowest output Gunpla.
If it's not that, there'll be no conversation which lead Ral to comment about how Shimon is purely depend on his skill.

> Fast enough

What he evade is just a normal kick, not even an attack fully supported by boosters.

> Allowing Sekai to reach higher grounds

Sekai clearly evade all of his long-range attacks, it's not without efforts.
Trying to get close to Build Burning in the air is not the smartest decision also.

> Choose to defend

Even if he chose to evade, Sekai can simply change direction with boosters or do a follow-up (Destiny still ended up defending). It's not that hard.
Moving to the air? Sekai had no problem with that as we already saw how he perform well until now.

> Mishandling the sword

No matter how Shimon use Arondight, Sekai can either catch-and-destroy or remove the sword easily.
Look at the first episode, Sekai caught Enact's blade with ease; You think he can't caught the beam? Well, he just need to caught the part without beam.
Piercing attack supported by Wings of Light? Build Burning clearly possess superior movement and mobility compare to a snap-build Destiny, just evade it, like you always say.

> Mishandling the boomerangs

Even if Shimon use boomerangs as beam saber, Sekai would do the same thing as he did to Arondight.
Shimon use the boomerangs after the Arondight, his decision to throw it make sense instead of using it as beam saber.

> Mishandling the left arm

He's a boxer, no weapon left; with lowest possible output of Palma Fiocina, what should Shimon do? Waving hand and say 'hello'?
Palma Fiocina with lowest possible output-- Can it really shot a blue beam? Even if it works, it won't even change the situation.

So ... Anything else? You're the one who ignoring what the episode actually presented ...

Caught up with Ral words is far better than caught up with personal opinion.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Tactics

> Skill wouldn't ensure damage

Then, how Seiken-zuki can be so deadly if skill wouldn't ensure damage?
Good enough to heavily damage Miyaga's Enact even while covered with DOM armor ...
There's Chinan with his deadly Chinan Kick, also Nils with Particle Fa Jin in previous GBF.

Read the whole sentence.

> No point showing Destiny had lower output

Ral clearly said, Faith is fighting in their lowest possible output due to their Gunpla snap-build quality.
Destiny is also a snap-build, which means, even the Destiny used to fight in this episode is currently in it's lowest possible output there.
Minato, Sudou, Fumina and Yuuma-- also Alan, Mao and Sei in previous GBF sometimes discuss about how build quality can affect performance;

It's a fact, a Gundam gunpla isn't inherently stronger than Zaku gunpla ...

Destiny being at its lowest possible performance doesn't mean that Destiny is weak.

> Shimon is weaker than Sekai.

ROFL. Shimon is national boxing champion, Sekai is black belt in kempo.
Main point in this episode is, Shimon strength is stronger but he's using lowest output Gunpla.
If it's not that, there'll be no conversation which lead Ral to comment about how Shimon is purely depend on his skill.

He is weaker as a fighter. He foolishly stood his ground rather than dodge. He foolishly extended Destiny's arm giving an opening for Sekai.

He may be a national boxing champion, but he certainly didn't show his worth in this battle.

> Fast enough

What he evade is just a normal kick, not even an attack fully supported by boosters.

A normal kick with a name that causes tornado and coming from above?

But even if it was just a normal kick, then that only further proves that Shimon should've dodged rather than stood his ground. So again, a failure on his part as a fighter.

> Allowing Sekai to reach higher grounds

Sekai clearly evade all of his long-range attacks, it's not without efforts.
Trying to get close to Build Burning in the air is not the smartest decision also.

A weak effort. A better one would actually be to fly and keep his higher ground while still firing.

> Choose to defend

Even if he chose to evade, Sekai can simply change direction with boosters or do a follow-up (Destiny still ended up defending). It's not that hard.
Moving to the air? Sekai had no problem with that as we already saw how he perform well until now.

And it's not that hard for Shimon to move either, as shown in the first battle.

> Mishandling the sword

No matter how Shimon use Arondight, Sekai can either catch-and-destroy or remove the sword easily.
Look at the first episode, Sekai caught Enact's blade with ease; You think he can't caught the beam? Well, he just need to caught the part without beam.
Piercing attack supported by Wings of Light? Build Burning clearly possess superior movement and mobility compare to a snap-build Destiny, just evade it, like you always say.

> Mishandling the boomerangs

Even if Shimon use boomerangs as beam saber, Sekai would do the same thing as he did to Arondight.
Shimon use the boomerangs after the Arondight, his decision to throw it make sense instead of using it as beam saber.

How would Sekai do to a beam saber the same way he did to a solid blade?

Also, it doesn't make any sense to use a boomerang without somehow distracting the target first or using it indirectly. Shimon simply threw them at Sekai without any plan behind it and when he has no other handheld weapon, so of course Sekai would just swat them away.

> Mishandling the left arm

He's a boxer, no weapon left; with lowest possible output of Palma Fiocina, what should Shimon do? Waving hand and say 'hello'?
Palma Fiocina with lowest possible output-- Can it really shot a blue beam? Even if it works, it won't even change the situation.

What should he do? He should not overextend his arm and wait just as Sekai did. See, Sekai actually showed he's a good fighter. Shimon, not so much, beyond showing he has some power in his punch.

So ... Anything else? You're the one who ignoring what the episode actually presented ...

Caught up with Ral words is far better than caught up with personal opinion.

It's not merely personal opinions when the episode showed that indeed Destiny could've been used better, as shown in the first battle.

[Cao Ni Ma]

I think you dont quite understand how things work in GBF. The suit that its based on means almost nothing outside of how you handle it. Build quality and and the pilots skill are the defining aspects of gunpla battle. With the introduction of the team format, having suits that complement the team is also important.

If the gunpla had proportional strength to the "canonicity" of the suit everyone would be using Turn A because its the most broken thing. Instead we have a case where a Ball could take on multiple suits by itself, something that is hilariously not canon. Also a jegan beating a dark gundam. So on and so forth.

Build quality can make up for lesser execution, its Mao's entire point in the original GBF. That Shimon was able to keep up with Sekai, whose no slouch himself in 1v1 fights, means that there was a massive gap in skill, simply because his burning gundam is a world championship level gunpla vs a straight build made by a sickly kid.

Im almost certain that Ral, Fumina or Yuuma is going to grab Sekai by the neck and tell him that. He can't rely on his suits performance to trump the enemy, specially if it leads to the suit taking as much damage as it did.

e-You keep mentioning the first battle. Its irrelevant, they were fighting nameless mooks. The gap in skill was so large that Shimon could solo all 3 of them by himself.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

I think you dont quite understand how things work in GBF. The suit that its based on means almost nothing outside of how you handle it.

It's not about the suit it's based on. I kept referring to what were shown in this episode, not to Gundam SEED Destiny.

[kuroihikari2]

Originally Posted by monster

It's not about the suit it's based on. I kept referring to what were shown in this episode, not to Gundam SEED Destiny.

But you're dwelling on some things really make that irrelevant. It doesn't matter whether it was not shown that the Destiny suit was significantly inferior to Build Burning. Everything points to the fact that it was. Even Sakai was mesmerized by Build Burning's thrust, and I doubt he would say the same about Shimon's destiny.

Fact is: Shimon's Destiny as a suit is inferior in every way to the Build Burning. So clearly, Shimon's talent is what made the Destiny go barely toe-to-toe with the Build Burning. In the end though, he still couldn't keep up. Then it all makes sense. Your interpretation of the events creates entirely unneeded contradictions.

[monster]

Originally Posted by kuroihikari2

It doesn't matter whether it was not shown that the Destiny suit was significantly inferior to Build Burning. Everything points to the fact that it was.

That's a contradiction.

Even Sakai was mesmerized by Build Burning's thrust, and I doubt he would say the same about Shimon's destiny.

I didn't say Build Burning wasn't superior. I said it wasn't superior enough to justify Shimon's battle tactic.

Fact is: Shimon's Destiny as a suit is inferior in every way to the Build Burning. So clearly, Shimon's talent is what made the Destiny go barely toe-to-toe with the Build Burning.

No, fact is it's impossible for the gunpla to do anything it cannot do. So the fact that Destiny can go toe-to-toe with Build Burning at all indicates that Destiny wasn't as weak as some people are making it out to be.

Let me clarify this point:

It's the gunpla's weakness that its cannon was lost, but it's the fighter's weakness that he chose to put the gunpla in that position instead of trying to dodge an apparent incoming attack.

In the end though, he still couldn't keep up. Then it all makes sense. Your interpretation of the events creates entirely unneeded contradictions.

There is no contradiction. I blame it on fighter error. Shimon was skilled, which accounts for some of his good moves, but he was weaker overall as a fighter, which accounts for his loss. Again, no contradiction.