Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei LN - Discussion about Other Topics

[Ultragunner]

Originally Posted by anonfr

I feel kind of weird about the post, just because having read the novel's it feels very premature.

The strong elitism tones of the enrollment arc, kind of fade after the enrollment arc. After the enrollment arc, it becomes more of an undertone of the series instead of a main stage thing. The Bloom vs. Weed thing doesn't make a huge jump to the forefront again until double 7. I feel like, in the first place it was sort of an introduction to the elitism existing in the classes of the 100 families and the 10 master clans.

I sort of agree with his post though, in a very specific sense. Mahouka is very political, and it becomes more political. If you don't like anything political than the series clearly is just not for you.

I just think the post is very premature, because as far as "Mahouka Politics" The "Bloom vs Weed" aspect of it becomes one of the lesser important issues, when compared to Yotsuba vs. Saegusa/Kudou, Magicians vs. Public opinion, Military vs. Public opinion, Japan vs. GAA, Yotsuba vs. Dahan affiliates.

Did I miss one? I feel like I missed one. Yotsuba vs. USNA? Japanese Magician coalition vs. Parasites/USNA?

Yeah, it is premature to make any assumptions for sure, but I'm totally ok with that. The thing is he seems to "intentionally" misinterpret the things Tatsuya says, well we are not omnipotent so confusion is just a natural thing, but he sounds like he just picked out the words that he wanted to hear

Originally Posted by IceHism

I don't believe so. I know dumb when I see it and the amount of cancer I get is beyond what I can take. You can call it childish all you want but their opinion is based on an ignorant foundation and that is truth.

The people literally never read past the first arc. They aren't even at the main plot of mahouka yet. Yet some how we are chalked to blind fanboyism, power fantasy, and wish fulfilment. Wtf. I'm not even seeing the part where this story is a power fantasy. Let's not even talk about wish fulfillment, People have confused the definition of that word for the longest time and everyone has their own definition of it

....*sigh*....yeah.....well they will just say "if the story only get better in later arc, then it's not good!" LOL

[anonfr]

Originally Posted by Ultragunner

Yeah, it is premature to make any assumptions for sure, but I'm totally ok with that. The thing is he seems to "intentionally" misinterpret the things Tatsuya says, well we are not omnipotent so confusion is just a natural thing, but he sounds like he just picked out the words that he wanted to hear

I think it's more like, instead of making a contrived argument just to bash the series, while he was watching the series the things he bashed are what jumped out at him.

Like, lol I like to think of him as watching it with a notepad.
Episode 1: This this and this bothered me *scribble scribble*
Episode 2: This this and this bothered me *scribble scribble*
Episode 3: This this and this bothered me *scribble scribble*
Episode 4: This this and this bothered me *scribble scribble*
OKAY TIME TO GO MAKE A REDDIT POST!

I don't think he actively picked out specific things to infuriate us, I think somethings just bothered him, and he ended up focusing on those impressions in his post.

[Ultragunner]

LOL

yeah, and make it like his points were COMPLETELY justified

Oh well, but hey, at least there are others who appreciate the show, and "appreciation" doesn't neccesarily mean they completely like the anime

[SoboSobo]

Originally Posted by fujin of shadows

Tatsuya would not leave Miyuki's side even if she releases him. The oath that he took to protect Miyuki runs deeper than some simple responsibility that the Yotsuba had thrust upon him...

i never said he would leave. Even if he will be an clan member or whatever she is still his little sister that he will protect.

[allfictions]

Originally Posted by Lucarion

Hey allfictions. ^_^ Nice seeing you here.

I agree. It's never nice to call people dumb when we don't even know them. But in the fans defense, maybe it's because we're getting tired of being called Libertarian objectivists who use the story to satisfy our power fantasies and having the character of the general fanbase being questioned or judged by people who probably have never even read past the first arc--or even read the story at all. It hurts when people make general assumptions about your community...it gets pretty annoying. Of course, people have the right to say whatever they want...but people seem to forget that just as they think they have legitimate reasons for disliking or hating the series, we think we have legitimate reasons for liking it too...But they'll just chalk it all up to blind fanboyism, and won't even try to acknowledge where we're coming from.

We...know each other?

And I agree with you, generalization/demonization of 1 groupe impede discussions and debates. I feel like he was pointing out a specific subset of the fandom, but instead decided to make a blanket statement of the group in his entirety. There are those who won't ever accept criticism of their favorite series, no matter what, but they are in minority I think. Most can and will listen to criticisms, and will either refute, or understand where the other side is coming from. Nobody should like echo chambers and hugboxes.

The way I see it is anyone can see/interpret Mahouka as they please. It's quite another thing, however, to make assumptions about its fanbase.

Originally Posted by IceHism

I don't believe so. I know dumb when I see it and the amount of cancer I get is beyond what I can take. You can call it childish all you want but their opinion is based on an ignorant foundation and that is truth.

No it's not truth, that's your own opinion. That you disagree with it doesn't make the reasons for their opinions less legitimate. It doesn't mean it is right, but please no demonizing the other side.

Personally, I think he has some valid points, I just don't agree with the overall portrayal and his conclusion. For example, even if he does mention being sympathetic, Tatsuya's analysis of what equality means just rubbed me wrong. And let's not talk about how the side demanding equality is only representated by a terrorist organization, thus undermining the legitimate criticism of the Mageocracy. Picuring that side as terrorists, and worse yet hypocrites, is basically a strawman to prove our heroes right. Why is there no legitimate, non violent group asking for equality? And sorry, this,

For people without talent, to escape the fact that they cannot compare to others, they loudly sing the praises of equality.

And this,

Unable to accept the truth that there are people with such talent that are completely beyond their grasp.

Is in no way true in my book. No amount of "I sympathize" cut it.

And I'm just going to point out that the guy does mention he read all current 12 novels. By claiming otherwise, you are acting exactly like he says fans do, you are proving him right. Don't do that.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Ultragunner

Seriously? Is that how people interpret Tatsuya's speech at the end of ep 4??? WTH???
That's just a figure of speech when he try to point out that he had no right in judging "equality", becuhe's special and that's why he can't really disagree or agree with either side
In other words, what he is trying to convey is that nothing is truly right or wrong, especially in this case
Seriously......

It's not about Tatsuya's speech. Do things have to be explicitly stated by the main character to be "said" by a story? Of course not.

The issue is that what the story's saying (and what a lot of you seem to have bought into completely) is that the Course 2 students are wrong to feel discriminated against. Everything, including the most gratuitous, is justified because they objectively don't perform as well.

That isn't true for Tatsuya, because he's actually (more or less secretly) great, and certainly special.

Those aren't Tatsuya's views. He's fine about being treated the way he is. Among other reasons because he's so strong he doesn't have to care.

But that's the story we're being presented: the system's wrong for not recognizing Tatsuya's worth, not because it treats the Weeds unfairly and, if you're utilitarian, inefficiently.

Originally Posted by IceHism

I don't believe so. I know dumb when I see it and the amount of cancer I get is beyond what I can take. You can call it childish all you want but their opinion is based on an ignorant foundation and that is truth.

The people literally never read past the first arc. They aren't even at the main plot of mahouka yet. Yet some how we are chalked to blind fanboyism, power fantasy, and wish fulfilment. Wtf. I'm not even seeing the part where this story is a power fantasy. Let's not even talk about wish fulfillment, People have confused the definition of that word for the longest time and everyone has their own definition of it

And 12 volumes in, all those points are still valid. I agree with anonfr that the Bloom vs Weed has largely gone into the background. It doesn't mean it's changed.

[anonfr]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

It's not about Tatsuya's speech. Do things have to be explicitly stated by the main character to be "said" by a story? Of course not.

The issue is that what the story's saying (and what a lot of you seem to have bough into completely) is that the Course 2 students are wrong to feel discriminated against. Everything, including the most gratuitous, is justified because they objectively don't perform as well.

That isn't true for Tatsuya, because he's actually (more or less secretly) great, and certainly special.

Those aren't Tatsuya's views. He's fine about being treated the way he is. Among other reasons because he's so strong he doesn't have to care.

But that's the story we're being presented: the system's wrong for not recognizing Tatsuya's worth, not because it treats the Weeds unfairly and, if you're utilitarian, inefficiently.


And 12 volumes in, all those points are still valid. I agree with anonfr that the Bloom vs Weed has largely gone into the background. It doesn't mean it's changed.

I feel the need to point out you agreed with me, when your avatar says "I disagree with everyone." I feel so accomplished!

I agree that the story presented is that the system is wrong for not recognizing Tatsuya's worth. But Tatsuya's inability to be properly gauged does later the whole "Weed Vs. Bloom" system, with the whole system reevaluated based on Tatsuya alone, culminating in the engineering program. So I think, that sort of proves that even objectively the discrimination against course 2 students isn't entirely justified, due to an inability to gauge a student's specific strengths outside of the preordained curriculum. Maybe the treatment of course 2 students are mostly justified, but not entirely.

[Anh_Minh]

Well, there is that. Progress, I guess?

Though there's something unsatisfactory about them doing it to accommodate a unique genius instead of, I don't know, common sense? Not to mention concern for the welfare of the student population as a whole.

[anonfr]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Well, there is that. Progress, I guess?

Though there's something unsatisfactory about them doing it to accommodate a unique genius instead of, I don't know, common sense? Not to mention concern for the welfare of the student population as a whole.

Yeah... can't disagree there. The system might've been a little wrong to begin with, but they only got away with it until that meddling Tatsuya showed up.

Progress is progress though.

[Lucarion]

Originally Posted by allfictions

We...know each other?

And I agree with you, generalization/demonization of 1 groupe impede discussions and debates. I feel like he was pointing out a specific subset of the fandom, but instead decided to make a blanket statement of the group in his entirety. There are those who won't ever accept criticism of their favorite series, no matter what, but they are in minority I think. Most can and will listen to criticisms, and will either refute, or understand where the other side is coming from. Nobody should like echo chambers and hugboxes.

I saw you in the TV Tropes forums while you tried to use the Shiva defense. ^_^ (At least I assume that was you?) I went by the name borderose.

I'm perfectly OK with people not liking the series. It's only when I feel it's undeserved or like when its fans, and therefore people I know and happen to like, get their characters unfairly judged by people who in general tend to take a position of superiority as they speak. It's unpleasant and trying to confront it makes me feel a little better.

As for Blanche...rather than strawman...Well apart from just being one faction in a big world-wide arena of interests, all Tatsuya basically said about them was that their premises were wrong and that behind the pretty words they actually had some pretty shady agendas. But the main reason I can buy Blanche existing is because, let's face it, we've seen worse organizations with worse reasons in real life.


Which reminds me, let me repeat this to everyone who sees: I believe the philosophy behind Mahouka is political realism or just realism. It works with the premises, themes, the ideas presented, why things happen in the story the way they do. It might even provide a reason why it seems a good number of Mahouka fans are also fans of Game of Thrones. At its core Mahouka is a story about power. Tatsuya is a Machiavellian hero. An ideal "Prince". He's like a walking checklist of everything Machiavelli would find desirable in a man of power.

Tatsuya isn't John Galt...He's Cesare Borgia.






On the subject of the quotes. I think this is where differing personal values among people fit in. Because I actually agree with them:

1) I've seen some real life example of people doing just this. In general, I think inequality is natural and trying to deny this as foolish and harmful. (I'll get more into it on 2) While we should all be treated with the same dignity due us as human beings...some people are just worth listening to more than others. Listen to the wrong group. And the world turns to shit. So we tend to give more weight to more "sensible" members of society...however; the rest will just cry out that things are unfair. Truth and competence matter more than "social justice". And any group who leads his fellow men to disaster by diverging from this principle can be called evil.

2) Some people ARE naturally better than others. (Heck, I've always been jealous of Tesla for one thing) There are people out there much smarter, stronger, more cultured, more gifted than I. As much as I may bemoan the situation I must face facts that they are better than me, and I should defer to them when it would be in everyone's best interest to do so. I may be better than them in certain areas, and in that case they should defer to me when it is right. Results are all that matters. Rule of the best, the right people for the right job--that should be how things work. When people don't listen to the people who, by all good reason, know better and try to pretend knowledge they do not possess--things go very bad for everyone around them.

[SoboSobo]

Originally Posted by anonfr

Yeah... can't disagree there. The system might've been a little wrong to begin with, but they only got away with it until that meddling Tatsuya showed up.

Progress is progress though.

true true.

[pampz21]

Spoiler for Erika:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-rcvYfMFeE#t=39

Reminds me of her~

[GBFirestorm]

Originally Posted by pampz21

Spoiler for Erika:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-rcvYfMFeE#t=39

Reminds me of her~

I don't see how.... Like to explain?

[Lucarion]

Also, just to throw this out here. I REALLY think a lot of people's gripes with Tatsuya can be solved once they just accept him as a god character. I mean come on, the story's deliberately setting himself up as one: lampshading on the the fact that his entire existence is ridiculous with his monstrous levels of power and brilliance, the constant jokes about his omnipotence and omniscience, the fact that the setting is a world where magic is deconstructed, his above good and evil morality and absolute judgement, the way his character growth is actually about getting kinder and more involved with humanity, the way he's aware of his own nature and even shows hints that he's unsatisfied with his level of power(which now begs the question of how much more powerful he can get), the way that he's probably being paired off with his ridiculously beautiful sister.

Tatsuya is a deconstructed, rationalized god character. He's pretty much Action-Man-Belldandy.

He's powerful enough to destroy and remake the world? Of course, he's a god.

He's basically omniscient and can see the true nature of the world around him? He's a god.

He's super intelligent and his body is super strong? A mind and body fit for a god.

Incest? Only gods marry their sisters.

He wins all the time? He's a freaking god, damnit. Of course, he's going to win if you face him off with no strategy.

He needs to be bound and his emotions kept in check? Because he's a god and him going out of control and emotional would cause disaster.

Actually when you think of Tatsuya as a god character, he even starts to look pretty balanced.

[millie10468]

Originally Posted by anonfr

Anyways, the reddit post isn't dumb, but it is very premature.

The OP likes to use the fact that he's read all 12 novels as the basis for his diatribe against the series. Under the guise of explaining stuff to people who have not watched/read the series, he bashes a series he doesn't appear to like. of course, coming from someone who sounds like he knows what he's talking about, naive people who can't make up their own minds write of the anime and base all future hateposts on the OP's rant. And that's what I can't stand. If he were an outright hater, I could ignore him. But he pretends to like the series while derisively portraying it to others. For the longest time, I could not tell he didn't like the series. His previous posts on the episodes sounded reasonable and not unlike someone who had just been introduced to the anime. I hate that I got fooled, that's it.

I don't mind/care if he doesn't like Mahouka. Picking and choosing what one wants in order to prove one's own point, like the OP did, is exactly one of what Tatsuya was talking about in his little speech. It's ironic that the OP didn't realize himself what he was doing. I also don't care if people would rather be told to do or not do something instead of making up their own minds. I'm just mad that he's turned the series into the posterchild of a political concept a lot of people don't agree with (meritocracy) which makes it a prime target for liberals and conservatives to pummel together. Calling it "poisonous" among other things is a sad way to treat something that's only there to entertain. Most of us reading have the sense to ignore the themes we don't agree with because we happen to like some of the characters. I find it hard to understand why he would read all 12 novels when he doesn't appear to see anything worth reading.

Rant over.

[anonfr]

Originally Posted by millie10468

The OP likes to use the fact that he's read all 12 novels as the basis for his diatribe against the series. Under the guise of explaining stuff to people who have not watched/read the series, he bashes a series he doesn't appear to like. of course, coming from someone who sounds like he knows what he's talking about, naive people who can't make up their own minds write of the anime and base all future hateposts on the OP's rant. And that's what I can't stand. If he were an outright hater, I could ignore him. But he pretends to like the series while derisively portraying it to others. For the longest time, I could not tell he didn't like the series. His previous posts on the episodes sounded reasonable and not unlike someone who had just been introduced to the anime. I hate that I got fooled, that's it.

I don't mind/care if he doesn't like Mahouka. Picking and choosing what one wants in order to prove one's own point, like the OP did, is exactly one of what Tatsuya was talking about in his little speech. It's ironic that the OP didn't realize himself what he was doing. I also don't care if people would rather be told to do or not do something instead of making up their own minds. I'm just mad that he's turned the series into the posterchild of a political concept a lot of people don't agree with (meritocracy) which makes it a prime target for liberals and conservatives to pummel together. Calling it "poisonous" among other things is a sad way to treat something that's only there to entertain. Most of us reading have the sense to ignore the themes we don't agree with because we happen to like some of the characters. I find it hard to understand why he would read all 12 novels when he doesn't appear to see anything worth reading.

Rant over.

I also am surprised he read all 12 volumes, just so he can tell us how much he didn't like it.

What is he, Terry Hoitz?

hmmm..

[kusabireika]

^ for me this ln is good as saying goes dont judge a book by its cover ^-^

I love this ln 0_0 haters will hate just leave them just let them rant as if we gonna join them

As a rule of thumb if you like it then read it, if not why read if you don't like it >_>

As for some hater like those, they just want some attention, I will rather ignored them because its waste of time waging a good discussion without prejudiced at the book it's more fun if we have good discussion with open mind open to critism and opinion rather then close mind like those who doesn't bother to open their mind while reading ^-^ if they don't like it why read =_= as if we forcing them to read, this common problem of those who doesn't read or close mind that doesn't analyze and understand what they reading 0_0, just my 2 cent

Well it's just my opinion and I will probably won't join in this topic +_+ because it might start something terrible

On-topic: who will win in a fight minami vs tomikatsu?

Can Tomikatsu beat Erika?

Is kanon strong can she use air mine like shizuku?

[Delftear]

Can't believe I read that thing.

So, I thought Mahouka was a Japanese Light Novel about a dystopian fantasy world, where magic had been discovered and half the human race wiped out in a world war. Sure it may include some very general philosophical themes but really only in relation to the current political and cultural situation in modern Japan. In truth, I just saw it as a fun story and an entertaining read.

Now, I realize that Mahouka is a basic part of an insidious scheme to subvert the modern world. Conceived by a shadowy cabal of Bankers, Industrialists, and Billionaires if left unchecked this novel could convert entire generations to capitalism.

Oh well, I just reread the 9sc arc so i think I will run out buy a Humvee and club some baby seals.

[anonfr]

Originally Posted by kusabireika

Well it's just my opinion and I will probably won't join in this topic +_+ because it might start something terrible

On-topic: who will win in a fight minami vs tomikatsu?

Can Tomikatsu beat Erika?

Is kanon strong can she use air mine like shizuku?

I think Minami would be Tomitsuka.

Tomitsuka would be to beat Erika, or at least fight on par with Erika, but that also depends on Erika's equipment vs. Tomitsuka's equipment.

I think We might see more of what Kanon can do in steeplechase.

Originally Posted by Delftear

Can't believe I read that thing.

So, I thought Mahouka was a Japanese Light Novel about a dystopian fantasy world, where magic had been discovered and half the human race wiped out in a world war. Sure it may include some very general philosophical themes but really only in relation to the current political and cultural situation in modern Japan. In truth, I just saw it as a fun story and an entertaining read.

Now, I realize that Mahouka is a basic part of an insidious scheme to subvert the modern world. Conceived by a shadowy cabal of Bankers, Industrialists, and Billionaires if left unchecked this novel could convert entire generations to capitalism.

Oh well, I just reread the 9sc arc so i think I will run out buy a Humvee and club some baby seals.

What? Can you elaborate on how you came into those opinions?

[kusabireika]

Originally Posted by anonfr

I think Minami would be Tomitsuka.

Tomitsuka would be to beat Erika, or at least fight on par with Erika, but that also depends on Erika's equipment vs. Tomitsuka's equipment.

I think We might see more of what Kanon can do in steeplechase.



What? Can you elaborate on how you came into those opinions?

Thank you for answering ^^

Well uhm in real battle Erika with orichimaru vs Tomikatsu full gear with there best condition going all out

Ok last question on the new student council president, public moral chairman and club leader who is strongest between them physically/mentally/emotionally and who is more likely support type ^-^ just curious :3