Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[shadow1296]

Originally Posted by monster

Why she had to die isn't as relevant as what her death meant.

actually it is because if the reason why they had to die is pointless like so two other characters can get together in the end then meaningfulness of that characters death is not what it could be for the veiwer because they notice that character could've been kept alive in the story if not for that reason, now i won't deny that flays death wasn't meaningful in anyway because it does show her character development and her true feelings for kira and is an all around beautiful scene but its not what it could be because of the why she had to die and thats my point

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by shadow1296

well that makes more sense that why he did what he did, but i still see the way she died and when she died as pointless so they can just have lacus and kira get together



yeah but it was war, and i never meant to say her death wasn't meaningful but how and when she died was pointless, there is also the fact it makes natarle's death have less meaning in it since she was shot trying to save flay from azreal and the crew of the doomed dominion who were on the life boat with flay and that the only action left with any meaning is natarle trapping azreal on the dominion's bridge so he can die when the archangel destroyed it

It could've been worse, they could've stuck with the idea of making her a human bomb. THAT would've been a stupid way to die rather than one that actually fits into the characterization of Rau who just wants to see suffering and destruction.

[shadow1296]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

It could've been worse, they could've stuck with the idea of making her a human bomb. THAT would've been a stupid way to die rather than one that actually fits into the characterization of Rau who just wants to see suffering and destruction.

true that would have been way worse, because that would have went so far against her development in the series that its not funny

[monster]

Originally Posted by shadow1296

actually it is because if the reason why they had to die is pointless like so two other characters can get together in the end then meaningfulness of that characters death is not what it could be for the veiwer

Where did you get that idea from? Flay's death is not necessary for that. Or rather, apparently, she was always meant to die anyway.

[shadow1296]

Originally Posted by monster

Where did you get that idea from? Flay's death is not necessary for that. Or rather, apparently, she was always meant to die anyway.

because i see no other reason for it since we've already seen her grow as a person when she tried to warn the archangel and the fact she died literally in the last episode when there is truly no reason for it except that or like you said just because she was always meant to die which is worse because they just killed her off to kill her off no other reason whatsoever

[S.Freedom]

I'm with shadow on this. There really isn't a reason to kill Flay other than:

A. Just to piss Kira off enough to try to kill Rau
B. To remove her as a romantic rival to Lacus

And I get that they always planned to kill her. Just like they probably always planned to kill Rau and Patrick Zala. But it's the way in which they went about killing her that made her character arc and death less meaningful than either Rau's or Patrick's. At least with them their deaths can be described as the logical conclusion of their character arcs. The same really can't be said about Flay's death imo.

[monster]

Originally Posted by S.Freedom

A. Just to piss Kira off enough to try to kill Rau

That's reason enough.

B. To remove her as a romantic rival to Lacus

Except her death isn't necessary for that.

And I get that they always planned to kill her. Just like they probably always planned to kill Rau and Patrick Zala. But it's the way in which they went about killing her that made her character arc and death less meaningful than either Rau's or Patrick's. At least with them their deaths can be described as the logical conclusion of their character arcs. The same really can't be said about Flay's death imo.

Which makes it tragic. Hence, it's still a good death.

There's less meaning/impact to death if every instance of it can be seen as a logical conclusion.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by monster

That's reason enough.

agreed. Rau as insane and was a death seeker. He's been trying to mindscrew Kira from the moment he realize who Kira was. Shooting the shuttle Kira tried so hard to protect was very much in character for him.

Originally Posted by monster

Except her death isn't necessary for that.

Yeah it is stated that he loved neither girl in seed which is very much believable. Fllay and Rau screwed little too much with his mind and body. Fllay was on her way to redemption but the damage was deep on Kira. It would've been more likely imo that if she did survive that they would've likely made their amends but gone their separate ways with a clear conscience. Kira probably still would've ended up the brooding veteran living with the reverend and Lacus. Just not as badly brooding lol.

Originally Posted by monster

Which makes it tragic. Hence, it's still a good death.

There's less meaning to death if every instance of it can be seen as a logical conclusion.

I find her death fitting and in character for those involved. Rau's characterization made it obvious he was going to go after he lifeboat when he saw that Kira valued it. He wanted to inflict the most suffering that he could while seeking death at Kira's hands.

[shadow1296]

Originally Posted by monster

That's reason enough.

not for a character you have developing for most the series, and its a reaction that could have gotten by killing lets say Mu if Rau was the one who killed him, since mu was basicly a father figure to kira most of the series

Originally Posted by monster

Except her death isn't necessary for that.

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

Yeah it is stated that he loved neither girl in seed which is very much believable. Fllay and Rau screwed little too much with his mind and body. Fllay was on her way to redemption but the damage was deep on Kira. It would've been more likely imo that if she did survive that they would've likely made their amends but gone their separate ways with a clear conscience. Kira probably still would've ended up the brooding veteran living with the reverend and Lacus. Just not as badly brooding lol.

Except for the fact that its also been stated flay has larger sway in kira's heart than lacus does even after her death so it would been more likely he would have
ended up with her at the end of the series

Originally Posted by monster

Which makes it tragic. Hence, it's still a good death.
There's less meaning/impact to death if every instance of it can be seen as a logical conclusion.

while it may make it tragic, it also makes it pointless to develop her as a character if she was just going to be used as a plot device to go into seed mode if they decided to develop the relationship between her and kira rather than her as a character then her being killed by rau would had much more meaning in it and would have been far more emotional to watch her die because we would see how much it truly hurts kira

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by shadow1296

Except for the fact that its also been stated flay has larger sway in kira's heart than lacus does even after her death so it would been more likely he would have ended up with her at the end of the series

Kira feels a great deal of guilt for what had happened with Fllay. He didn't actually love her or Lacus through Seed but his guilt towards her weighed too heavily on him and he death which he couldn't prevent hangs on him even more because he swore to protect her. He never knew that Fllay was manipulating him and expecting him to die for her originally. That is why I see that even if she survived, she would've admitted everything to him and the two would forgive each other but decide to go their separate ways.

[shadow1296]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

Kira feels a great deal of guilt for what had happened with Fllay. He didn't actually love her or Lacus through Seed but his guilt towards her weighed too heavily on him and he death which he couldn't prevent hangs on him even more because he swore to protect her. He never knew that Fllay was manipulating him and expecting him to die for her originally. That is why I see that even if she survived, she would've admitted everything to him and the two would forgive each other but decide to go their separate ways.

a guilt he already has for tolle and the shuttle because he couldn't prevent their deaths either, that fact that the guilt is more with flay is because of how much she meant to him and honestly if she had survived it turned out like you said i would have been okay with it heck it would have been better writing because he would have chosen to be lacus rather than flay and not have chosen lacus because flay had died

[IceHism]

I always had the impression that Kira chose Lacus because of the two years they spent together with the reverend and the orphans. I could see that they genuinely cared for each other as close friends by the end of seed. I feel that he wouldn't have chosen flay even if she lived because before Kira went MIA, he was disillusioned by his relationship and even had a disturbed look before he said something along the lines of "Let's talk when i get back". They would probably make up as friends but i don't think Flay is the type of women that Kira would want to be with at that point.

Of course i would say Flay's death was random and probably unnecessary in the grand scheme of things... but life isn't always so logical.

[Rising Dragon]

SEED just had a bad habit of using character death to resolve any sort of character conflict. Flay was one of many victims in that regard.

[monster]

Originally Posted by shadow1296

not for a character you have developing for most the series, and its a reaction that could have gotten by killing lets say Mu if Rau was the one who killed him, since mu was basicly a father figure to kira most of the series

It doesn't matter. It still works here, and Mu's own death worked in its own way.

Except for the fact that its also been stated flay has larger sway in kira's heart than lacus does even after her death so it would been more likely he would have
ended up with her at the end of the series

Not at all. Guilt can hold a strong sway, but it still won't necessarily bring them back together as anything more than friends.

while it may make it tragic, it also makes it pointless to develop her as a character if she was just going to be used as a plot device to go into seed mode if they decided to develop the relationship between her and kira rather than her as a character then her being killed by rau would had much more meaning in it and would have been far more emotional to watch her die because we would see how much it truly hurts kira

It's not pointless because we still truly see how much her death hurts Kira.

You're really not making any sense here.

[shadow1296]

Originally Posted by monster

It doesn't matter. It still works here, and Mu's own death worked in its own way.

i was using Mu as an example, its still doesn't change the fact that they took the time to develop her only to use her in the role that any character could have filled at that point, a role that was not necessarily needed since kira was in fact a better pilot than rau and could already activate seed mode at will

Not at all. Guilt can hold a strong sway, but it still won't necessarily bring them back together as anything more than friends.

Again a guilt that strong can only be there if they deeply cared about the person they failed to protect

It's not pointless because we still truly see how much her death hurts Kira.

You're really not making any sense here.

how am i not making sense, I said it's pointless to develop her AS A CHARACTER if she is just going to be used as a plot device for another a plot device that was unneeded and any other character and i mean any other character could be used for it, and yes we do see that her death hurts kira but if the development was on their relationship instead of the character it would have been far more emotional FOR THE VIEWER because we would have seen how much he truly cared for her before her death and how much it truly hurt not just the fact it hurt him

[monster]

Originally Posted by shadow1296

i was using Mu as an example, its still doesn't change the fact that they took the time to develop her only to use her in the role that any character could have filled at that point, a role that was not necessarily needed since kira was in fact a better pilot than rau and could already activate seed mode at will

how am i not making sense, I said it's pointless to develop her AS A CHARACTER if she is just going to be used as a plot device for another a plot device that was unneeded and any other character and i mean any other character could be used for it, and yes we do see that her death hurts kira but if the development was on their relationship instead of the character it would have been far more emotional FOR THE VIEWER because we would have seen how much he truly cared for her before her death and how much it truly hurt not just the fact it hurt him

No, because Kira never promised any other character anything like he promised Flay. It is because of their past together and the way her character developed that made her death more meaningful, especially with respect to Kira. So yes, we did see how he cared for her and wanted to protect her and it hurt him that she couldn't be saved and it is emotional to the viewer as well because we saw how Flay never got the chance to make her peace in person with Kira.

Again a guilt that strong can only be there if they deeply cared about the person they failed to protect

Of course he cared for her. That has nothing to do with being in a romantic relationship.

[Deadpool2000]

Originally Posted by shadow1296

how am i not making sense, I said it's pointless to develop her AS A CHARACTER if she is just going to be used as a plot device for another

All characters are plot devices. That's how crafting a story works.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by shadow1296

Again a guilt that strong can only be there if they deeply cared about the person they failed to protect

Fllay intentionally invoked this in the beginning. She really pushed Kira's guilt to the limit to get him to do as she wanted. She basically conditioned it into him to a bigger extent than necessary.

[suiken]

What if they killed off Lacus instead of Flay?

[Rising Dragon]

I'd rejoice.