Morality in Code Geass? Do the ends justify the means?

[evil|plushie]

You're kinda assuming that the people in the Empire are likely to just accept the SAZ, even if certain political leaders like Schneizel and ex-princess Euphie were behind it.

While I agree that the SAZ is possible, since anything's possible, even if it only has a chance of 0.00000001% of happening, I don't think anything good would have come out of it if it had been left solely in the hands of Euphie.

As for what we know about the other areas, they're probably all Numbered areas, where the people are probably called 10s, 9s etc. But in all honesty, I haven't seen any special reason to indicate that Japan would be the only country to be mistreated by Britainnia. Or maybe it's a racial thing.

[Terra]

Cornelia says herself in ep 18 I think that it's national policy to treat numbers differently. So you can pretty much take Japan's treatment as the norm for all numbered areas. What was happening in Japan was going to have large implications for all areas since it wasn't normal.

[Juvyniled]

By not forcing them to work on plantations like slaves(no offense intended), they were already in the process of undermining their empire. Assimilating the conquered people into their community makes them more pivotal to the foundation of the empire. Even though the SAZ uindermines their current control, allowing for the rebels to continue their struggle does more to undermine their authority.

[Terra]

The SAZ only really served one useful thing as far as Britannia was concerned. It killed the support of the rebellion. Which is why Zero planned to destroy it. He saw through what it really meant to Britannian. He also saw they'd probably move in on it once all rebels had been neutralized. He wasn't a fool. He knew once it's purpose was served, Britannia would probably just retake control.

[Juvyniled]

I think it's obvious that Zero didn't want it to 'destroy' his rebellion. But to whose benefit are we arguing here? There is no debate as to whether this would benefit/compromise Zero's status (obviously it wouldn't do him any good)... but what about the benefit to the Elevens? Lelouch was less concerned with what this might do for the common folk than he was with his objectives, which is perfectly fine, but if you view it from Zero's perspective, it becomes perfectly clear what the opinion on the matter becomes.

But if you consider the basis for the SAZ... would Britannia (or should they even) really allow them to continue to rebel? It's not a peaceful protest like what Gandhi did, it's a forceful uprising with weapons capable of obliterating things. I am by no means defending the Britannian actions, but merely pointing out that logic and rationality must prevail.

[evil|plushie]

Shrugs. What WAS the benefit of the SAZ? It was basically a nicer looking ghetto for the japanese to gather. Sure, they'd be able to live in 'peace' there, provided that no dubious 'chemical bombs' suddenly went missing in the area, but would the japanese really have benefitted from it?

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Terra

The SAZ only really served one useful thing as far as Britannia was concerned. It killed the support of the rebellion. Which is why Zero planned to destroy it. He saw through what it really meant to Britannian. He also saw they'd probably move in on it once all rebels had been neutralized. He wasn't a fool. He knew once it's purpose was served, Britannia would probably just retake control.

Why would they even want to? To pacify a resistance movement for very little cost has always been an occupier's dream, so why would the Britannians want to sabotage their own goals?

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

Shrugs. What WAS the benefit of the SAZ? It was basically a nicer looking ghetto for the japanese to gather. Sure, they'd be able to live in 'peace' there, provided that no dubious 'chemical bombs' suddenly went missing in the area, but would the japanese really have benefitted from it?

We don't really know a whole lot of details about Euphemia's proposal, but both the more extreme anti-Britannian insurgents and the smarter Japanese intellectuals thought that it could be a good idea.

[evil|plushie]

Uh...no, they didn't -_- They realised it was a BAD move. Or didn't the fact that the old man, *whose name I've forgotten* in the Kyoto group thought the whole SAZ thing would be a very bad thing, as well as most of the higher ranked OoTBK.

But seriously, it's a nicer looking ghetto. The only britainnians there were soldiers, there literally weren't any civilian britainnians there to take part in the ceremony.

[Terra]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Why would they even want to? To pacify a resistance movement for very little cost has always been an occupier's dream, so why would the Britannians want to sabotage their own goals?

They wouldn't immediately destroy it. Just when its purpose was fulfilled, and it was no longer useful. Chancces are they'd of taken the slower approach. Gradually get people into positions where they could bit by bit remove the equal rights of the Japanese and integrate the SAZ into the rest of Area 11. But either way, I don't see Britannia allowing the area to exist longer than neccessary because of the consequences it produces for the other areas.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

Uh...no, they didn't -_- They realised it was a BAD move. Or didn't the fact that the old man, *whose name I've forgotten* in the Kyoto group thought the whole SAZ thing would be a very bad thing, as well as most of the higher ranked OoTBK.

Not quite. A few people had doubts because they didn't know whether the Britannians were sincere, or if it was just a trap.

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

But seriously, it's a nicer looking ghetto. The only britainnians there were soldiers, there literally weren't any civilian britainnians there to take part in the ceremony.

Why do you call it a ghetto?

Originally Posted by Terra

They wouldn't immediately destroy it. Just when its purpose was fulfilled, and it was no longer useful.

Something like this is useful for an indefinite timeframe, and there's no need to destroy it if it doesn't cost a whole lot to begin with. The Britannians aren't really mustache-twirling villains even if some of the Code Geass writers seem to want to present them that way.

[Var]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Something like this is useful for an indefinite timeframe, and there's no need to destroy it if it doesn't cost a whole lot to begin with. The Britannians aren't really mustache-twirling villains even if some of the Code Geass writers seem to want to present them that way.

The issue terra is bringing up is that this SAZ idea can spread to the other areas. If the Empire allows it to spread, then eventually people will demand more and more. We saw that other regions have tried to rebel only to be crushed, if Japan is treated different it could have ramifications.

But, if they can impose enough fear either way there should be no problem.

[4Tran]

If rebellion is rife in the other Areas, then it would be to Britannia's advantage for the zones to spread.

[evil|plushie]

I call it a ghetto, because it basically seems like a nicer version of Shinjuku and the other ghettos they destroyed. A place where it seems like only the 11s would live. It's not so much assimilation as it is segregation. Basically, put all the 11s in this nice place so they don't rebel, but with no sign of increased equality either.

[4Tran]

But why "ghetto" necessarily? I'd imagine that the conditions of the Shinjiku ghetto are similar to the historical Warsaw ghetto where the inhabitants didn't have any way of leaving. But how would this apply to the SAZ where all the inhabitants have to apply to enter?

[evil|plushie]

Because that's what almost all the pure 11 living areas seem to be called, ala Shinjuku and the other area Cornelia destroyed. Although, granted most of them are squalid.

And it's also partially because of my comparison between the SAZ and the other ghettos the 11s live in.

[4Tran]

But the Japanese must outnumber the Britannians in Area 11 by at least 50:1, so wouldn't that make everywhere ghettos, save for a few parts of Tokyo?

[evil|plushie]

Shrugs, who's to say they arent? But britainnia seems to have a lot of its own citizens around in Japan. Anyway, do note that I said pure 11 living areas, which means no britainnians in them.

[4Tran]

I know; the Britannians seemed to be clustered mostly in Tokyo, and there'd be very few of them in the rest of Japan. However, the logic would be that if everywhere was a ghetto, then the term sort of loses its meaning.

[evil|plushie]

I can't say how many britainnians there are in and outside of Tokyo, but generally, I would estimate that more rural areas would have less britainnians. After all, the britainnians seem to the sole executive rulers of the 11s, meaning that if there were a lot of 11s nearby, there would probably be quite a few britainnians to oversee that city/district/area. Unless it was a pure 11 ghetto.

[kimchipride]

I'm siding with Lelouch in this case. But there is a certain line he won't cross even when he believes that the ends justify the means. A great example of something Lelouch wouldn't do is what Bismarck did in order to try to get power in Europe. He had a treaty with Austria and in order to gain power over them, he backstabbed them and destroyed their army. This is something Zero would never do. The time when Lelouch used the geass on Euphie was a mistake and he tried to take advantage of that mistake by blaming Euphie. I find no fault in this, although he did not really regret his mistake.