Final Fantasy 7 Remake, Pt. 2 Rebirth

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by MonkeyDude

Spoiler:

You're arguing apples and oranges here. You can have great characters with bad plot and vice versa. Let's use the mainline FF15 for example. The story in that game is a huge dumpster fire that was barely patched together even with all the DLC they threw at it. The characters? They were great and they carried what was otherwise a barely mediocre game. FF7 OG? Great characters, I'd argue a good story for an rpg. FF7R Part 1? Great characters, story was chugging along decently until they jumped the shark.

Can they get back on track without having to retcon the whole fate nonsense? Eh I'm doubtful, but got years to reconcile/forget the story and just play it for the characters and hope it gets back on track.

As for the rest, well let's just agree to disagree.

Spoiler:

And I don't get what you're responding to? My argument is that using destiny/fate as your plot device makes no sense and doesn't fit the overall theme of FF7. And for what? Just to tell your audience that things will no longer be the same? To force an unnecessary Sephiroth boss fight just cause that's what fans would want (nevermind that both the harbinger and Sephiroth fight were lackluster boss fights at best)? To absolutely shred the pacing of the narrative just to again hammer home the point that things WILL BE DIFFERENT.

They were already doing that by (barely) expanding the roles Avalanche and Wutai played in the world. But nah that wasn't good enough. Need a bigger oomph for the finale of Part 1.

So yeah since these posts are starting to become rather time consuming, I'll just say that I don't argue that the changes they want to do to the story are bad. Hell I welcome the changes and additions so long as they actually make good ones, and a good portion of what they actually decided to expand on were decent at the very least.

My point of contention is the execution. I have no issue with the end result and even support it to a degree, but the execution of Chapter 18 leaves much to be desired. If nothing else grant me that chapter could have been handled better without having to jump the shark like that.

One thing that Nojima explicitly mentioned is a lot of people were already spoiled on the original's events, so doing things the same way the original did would not have the same impact.

Given that they intentionally set the ending this way...

Spoiler for speculation:

the most optimistic scenario would be that they're giving the false hope that Aerith can be saved, only for her to die anyway.

Since this game already subverted expectations and set up the possibility that things could be different, this allows them to kill off Aerith and still surprise people with knowledge of the original FFVII. If this is what they are going for, then I think I can respect that.

However, admittedly I am a bit wary since these are also the scenario writers that have already made multiple mistakes between the Compilation, Kingdom Hearts, and FFXIII (Motomu Toriyama is also involved). They could also go the wish fulfillment route and truly keep Aerith alive (which would ruin the series entirely).

So we will have to see where it goes.

[MeoTwister5]

Or we could get a Mass Effect like scenario where different choices and events affects the subsequent games down the line.

Which is highly unlikely.

[NAJ P. Jackson]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Or we could get a Mass Effect like scenario where different choices and events affects the subsequent games down the line.

Which is highly unlikely.

How about a Mass Effect 2 suicide mission scenario where anyone can die depending on your choices.

[MeoTwister5]

Originally Posted by NAJ P. Jackson

How about a Mass Effect 2 suicide mission scenario where anyone can die depending on your choices.

You think SE has the balls to do that to the remake of a classic game?

[MonkeyDude]

Originally Posted by NAJ P. Jackson

How about a Mass Effect 2 suicide mission scenario where anyone can die depending on your choices.

One surprising tidbit I recently heard of (which I haven't researched and verified myself so take it with a grain of salt) was that at one point in OG there was supposedly a scenario where everyone outside of your immediate party dies. If that's true then everyone but Cloud and two of your party dies near the end.

And change for changes sake isn't exactly a good thing. I get that they want to surprise their audience since most will know how the story will go, but keep it grounded within the framework OG created.

Spoiler:

In my opinion Fate/Destiny was never a theme of OG. So using that as a catalyst for change just doesn't add up. Now the whole alternate timeline shtick with post AC Sephiroth being the big bad cause he can somehow travel through parallel dimensions now is a thing? I have to stretch my suspension of disbelief as that in itself wasn't an FF7 thing, but yeah sure why not? That's at least somewhat easier to swallow than fighting against fate/destiny. Granted I absolutely loathe using time as a plot device unless it's done really, really well (see Steins Gate).

So that supposed scenario where everyone dies is now rather plausible since hey if that's not on the table then why the hell did we even go through Chapter 18? Give so called "purists" (which evidently includes me too?) something to be really salty about.

[MeoTwister5]

I should also say that the OST has been fucking glorious from start to finish. I could have only imagined what could have been achieved back in the 90s if the PSX had better sound capabilities.

Masashi Hamauzu and Mitsuto Suzuki do Nobuo Uematsu proud.

[Tactics]

Originally Posted by MonkeyDude

So that supposed scenario where everyone dies is now rather plausible since hey if that's not on the table then why the hell did we even go through Chapter 18? Give so called "purists" (which evidently includes me too?) something to be really salty about.

At the end, you're just running in circle complaining something that not proven yet that when you tried to prove it it's just crumble because the change as far remake goes are not treating Disc 1 OG as something wrong but actually asking the player to do cross-check plot points with OG.

[MonkeyDude]

Originally Posted by Tactics

At the end, you're just running in circle complaining something that not proven yet that when you tried to prove it it's just crumble because the change as far remake goes are not treating Disc 1 OG as something wrong but actually asking the player to do cross-check plot points with OG.

Seriously what are you even responding to? The post I made that there was a scenario considered in OG that everyone but Cloud and two party members die near the end? Because you're being rather hostile about this, here's a link for your reading pleasure. Actually surprised it's true, but hey would have certainly made a bigger oomph back in the day.

https://gamerant.com/final-fantasy-7-character-deaths/

And if I got your jumbled writing right, you're saying that the player is supposed to cross-check plot points with the OG? Care to explain why the player is supposed to do that? If you need another game (and a movie, and another game, and hell let's just do the whole compilation) to explain the plot points of your remake, then I do believe you're doing something wrong. And if you think Disc 1 of OG is just Midgar then I do believe you're remembering a different game here.

If you're referring to myself being salty about character deaths? Just look at my post history, sparse though it may be, and it'll be pretty easy to see that I support major character deaths so long as it makes narrative sense.

I'm going to reiterate it one last time and just drop the subject matter altogether (for realsies). I'm actually supportive of the changes, hell expand on more and change more so long as it maintains the core framework of the story. But how they went about doing it? Yeah again feels like a bad fanfic. Some people say it feels like Kingdom Hearts, but haven't played that franchise so I'll just go with bad fanfic.

[Tactics]

Spoiler for ending:

I simply pointing that your past complaint is meaningless as nothing to really prove Remake is a badly written fanfic yet, not to mention fact it still the first game, not more, not less that you can see yourself filling idea of this "badly written fanfic" with potential character death.

I'm not saying players supposed to cross-check but to answer your point that what Remake do is making people difficult to enjoy OG as well due to "Its not same theme" reason. I simply didn't think so thanks to fact they're pointing which part changed in comparison to OG with Whispers. So if anyone interested to seek the difference, they can start playing OG or at least watching YouTube as some people already made comparison videos that I seriously don't think its that difficult, not with current era level of access.

If anything, I think Nojima and Nomura already planned it as well.
Gap between first part to second part of Remake is more than enough to let any players clear OG FF VII or at least looking back at the Compilation;
That way people can start speculating which part get hit by Remake turn of events as Remake Part I already cut all the 'unnecessary part' while pushing some part to next installment following medium constraint and changes; whether old interviews still relevant or not, its up to you. Personally, I'm not into adding more deaths of recruitable characters if it ended up cheapens the value of death itself.

[Mad Pierrot]

The remake has sold 3.5 million copies so far in 3 days. I'm surprised considering the current difficulties with buying games

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by MonkeyDude

And if I got your jumbled writing right, you're saying that the player is supposed to cross-check plot points with the OG? Care to explain why the player is supposed to do that? If you need another game (and a movie, and another game, and hell let's just do the whole compilation) to explain the plot points of your remake, then I do believe you're doing something wrong. And if you think Disc 1 of OG is just Midgar then I do believe you're remembering a different game here.

The player is supposed to ask questions. Perhaps the more informed player could cross reference Advent Children to find clues, but for all intents and purposes, the ending is not meant to give answers.

The possibility of it derailing due to the last chapter is a fair concern, but the intention is to leave a sequel hook for the next part. Given that both you and I are still discussing this, I'd say that the dev team accomplished what they wanted for now. Whether that will be true for the future parts remains to be seen.

As for why the Remake is just Midgar, I'd wager that is more for logistical reasons. Midgar is mostly linear, so that makes things slightly easier to develop. Once they leave Midgar, they would have to develop various systems to support an open/overworld if they are serious about reproducing the original's legacy. It would be completely different from how the first part works.

[Mad Pierrot]

What the? The game has a 88 on Metacritic. I think the last FF with such a big score there was XII with an acclaimed number. The XIII trilogy was a bit lower though.

[Dark Wing]

Spoiler for Ending:

Yea I am just going to straight up and say I'm not feeling the changes made. All Square‐Enix had to do was make an updated version for FF7 (at least the first part) and collect their money. But no they had to o be all clever adding in timelines and alternet universes now we've got all this unneccessary confusion.

[Twi]

Remake, not Remaster.

[velvet nightmare]

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

Spoiler for ending:

Yea I am just going to straight up and say I'm not feeling the changes made. All Square‐Enix had to do was make an updated version for FF7 (at least the first part) and collect their money. But no they had to o be all clever adding in timelines and alternet universes now we've got all this unneccessary confusion.

I think they're trying to give players something to look forward to.

If they made a story carbon copy of OG, would players look forward to part 2 so SE can continue money collecting? Under the assumption that from part 1 to 2 that game mechanics don't change that much, and a large portion of the player base already knows what happens; I don't think there would be that as much interest in part 2.

At least now I think that most of the player base is willing to stay invested to see where things go with the story.

[The Green One]

So in short.....

Spoiler for What I'm hearing:

This is basically boiling down to. "Oh hey, there's new story possibilities here. That's neat. I'm interested in where this is going." or "WHAT!?! ANY CHANGES TO FINAL FANTASY 7 AT ALL!?! HOW DARE THEY!!!!" These are the two camps I'm hearing. Or reading. I imagine this is going to continue throughout the years the remake takes to finish. Well at least we won't lack discussion possibilities I suppose.

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by The Green One

So in short.....

Spoiler for What I'm hearing:

This is basically boiling down to. "Oh hey, there's new story possibilities here. That's neat. I'm interested in where this is going." or "WHAT!?! ANY CHANGES TO FINAL FANTASY 7 AT ALL!?! HOW DARE THEY!!!!" These are the two camps I'm hearing. Or reading. I imagine this is going to continue throughout the years the remake takes to finish. Well at least we won't lack discussion possibilities I suppose.

Well that kind of disingenuous...

Spoiler:

People aren't dissatisfied with this game just because of changes in general were made. Everyone excepts alterations to be made to things such as battle systems and game mechanics when remaking a game this old.

What people are upset about is feeling the narrative was changed just for the sake of having a bait and switch like expecting FF7 then getting Kingdom Hearts instead. I'm willing to take a wait and see approach because it did feel fun to play however my excitement for this game has been diminished to the point that I won't be buying the other parts until it's all wrapped up and discounted significantly.

[The Green One]

I'm merely offering my opinion and impression based on what I'm encountering. You're free to not agree with it at your discretion.

[NAJ P. Jackson]

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

Spoiler for Ending:

Yea I am just going to straight up and say I'm not feeling the changes made. All Square‐Enix had to do was make an updated version for FF7 (at least the first part) and collect their money. But no they had to o be all clever adding in timelines and alternet universes now we've got all this unneccessary confusion.

Spoiler:

SE simply don't want to retell an old story because many plotpoints like Aerith's death and Sephiroth's reveal will no longer make an impact on fans. Even if you haven't played the old game (like me) scenes like Aerith's death is so infamous that it's impossible not to know about it. They've done the remake this way so that they can add new content to the game.

[MonkeyDude]

Hell even disregarding the end of the game jumping the shark like that, the most egregious thing they did was the blatant false advertising for the game. Yes this isn't a remaster. Yes that a remake entails changes, changes I embraced if not for the contrived plot device used to justify it.

This game is a sequel, probably better called FFVII-2. Wouldn't exactly have generated as much hype given SE's rather lackluster performance regarding Final Fantasy sequels, but let's call this game what it is.

Spoiler:

All the callbacks to most of the FF7 Compilation (Dirge of Cerberus will probably pop up in part 2) plus the Advent Children final boss fight alongside all the random cryptic crap Sephiroth mentioned supports this. Sounds crazy? Hear me out here...

Now the plot is a time traveling, dimension hopping Sephiroth from the Compilation timeline arrived in the Remake dimension to redo things so that he successfully plows meteor into the planet this time. Aerith, being the last Cetra, somehow gained knowledge of this alternate dimension timeline courtesy of the planet. Our heroes also gained bits and pieces, but Aerith seems to be the planet's conduit for the knowledge of the other multiverse.

So now our heroes have to stop Sephiroth from fulfilling his goal of summoning Meteor cause he's been well established as the bad guy. Now you're probably asking when did this happen in Part 1? If just taking it as a standalone game? Well of course not. He's just been the guy randomly popping up to mess with Cloud until he somehow became the final boss fight.

But if Sephiroth is in fact a dimension hopping, time traveling bad guy trying to do the job right this time? Sounds like I'm being facetious, but it seems like a decent interpretation of this so called narrative. Reason why I call it a bad fanfic!

As for sales, most people who can buy this game at launch probably also have broadband internet for the most part? Pretty beefy download at around 80GB+, but that's how I got my copy.

And as for story beats like Aerith dying not being impactful because it's so well known? Well how about rather than the usual Sephiroth impales Aerith, the party wasn't able to stop Cloud in time and he ends up doing the deed himself. Aerith still dies cause that's pretty important to the plot (depending on your interpretation of it anyway), but now people are like HOLY SHIT CLOUD KILLED AERITH!? Now in my opinion that seems like a good way of subverting expectations. Added bonus of messing Cloud up even more.

Originally Posted by Mad Pierrot

What the? The game has a 88 on Metacritic. I think the last FF with such a big score there was XII with an acclaimed number. The XIII trilogy was a bit lower though.

The game is legitimately good. I'd critically rate it as an 8.5/10 for having great combat and wonderful musical pieces. The game could have trimmed around 2-3hrs of fat, but the pacing in and of itself was adequate for the most part.

The "me" FF7 fanboy nostalgia goggles rating gave it a 7/10 because it managed to get me to drop my controller in disbelief while voicing out loud "the hell am I looking at" during the final 2-3hrs of the game.

Spoiler:

Sephiroth ripped open a hole through the fabric of reality? Through space and time? And Aerith was somehow able to create and stabilize a portal for a party to enter Fate's dimension so they could kill it?

Let's ignore how I'm a (supposed) rabid FF7 purist damning everyone to the fiery pits of hell for daring to change even one iota of the story of my beloved game for a moment here. Can we all at least agree on how ludicrous that sounds? And I'm not even being hyperbolic here. That's exactly what happened in the game! Unless it was all a fever dream...