Mobile Suit Gundam: The Witch From Mercury - Anime Episode Discussion

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Dengar

bad guys

I'd say there aren't any good guys on either side. Nor is anyone truly evil either.

Originally Posted by justavisitor

possibly making the plan more inhumane

It's not like Delling would care about being humane anyway.

[Frontier]

Originally Posted by justavisitor

The combat in this episode is way better than those gunbit fights in my opinion.

So based on what I see from this show, things go on in this order??
1. Delling banned gundam, saying gundam "is not a proper war machine" (based on the prologue, or whatever the reason) because at that time he was going on with his original "Quiet Zero" plan (Oppress the Earth, and make each side gain enough profit to stop the war??)
2. Miorine's mom died
3. Suletta's mom somehow knows the plan of "Quiet Zero", convincing Delling that Gundam is needed to continue this plan
4. So Aerial is probably funded by Delling as well? Then all the argument about unbanning Gundam in S1 was just an act between Delling and Suletts's mom
5. Unknown to Delling, Prospera is twisting the "Quiet Zero" with Gundam's technology, possibly making the plan more inhumane

Something like that?

My understanding is the clampdown on Gundams was just a result of Dellings' hardcore stance on trying to limit war or dangerous weaponry through his position, he just went wayyyyy too far with it.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

I'd say there aren't any good guys on either side. Nor is anyone truly evil either.

I feel like the "bad guys" are the people using the conflict between Earthian and Spacian to their advantage or to service their own ends, with the people fighting in the conflict seeing no path outside fighting each other and continuing the cycle of violence.

The only way I can see our protagonists actually accomplishing anything is if they can figure out some way to truly break the system and bring Earth and Space together.

[azarhal]

Originally Posted by justavisitor

The combat in this episode is way better than those gunbit fights in my opinion.

So based on what I see from this show, things go on in this order??
1. Delling banned gundam, saying gundam "is not a proper war machine" (based on the prologue, or whatever the reason) because at that time he was going on with his original "Quiet Zero" plan (Oppress the Earth, and make each side gain enough profit to stop the war??)
2. Miorine's mom died
3. Suletta's mom somehow knows the plan of "Quiet Zero", convincing Delling that Gundam is needed to continue this plan
4. So Aerial is probably funded by Delling as well? Then all the argument about unbanning Gundam in S1 was just an act between Delling and Suletts's mom
5. Unknown to Delling, Prospera is twisting the "Quiet Zero" with Gundam's technology, possibly making the plan more inhumane

Something like that?

Yes, but if Aerial is entire funded by Delling, then they started to work together less than 8 years after the prologue, because Aerial got to Mercury with 4 years old Suletta at that time. Nortrette would have still been alive.

There is nothing human about Delling's plan since plants defense mechanics goes from being so toxic that nothing grows around but that species to inducing cannibalism on their predators if they take a bite.

And after this episode people should start to wonder how lowly Delling the soldier with no money and no management/corporate training ended up at the head of the Benerit Group...

...only 9 episodes left.

[Key Board]

I just realized neither Norea and Nika have the full context of each other's actions

Nika thinks Norea just committed tantrum terrorism. Nika doesn't know it was a plan to arrest Sarius and shift the power balance to Shaddiq. And they have no reason to tell her.

Norea thinks Nika ratted them out. She doesn't know Nika was captured before she could do anything and it was Shaddiq that told Dominicus it was DoF's doing. And he probably just pinned the blame on Nika.

//

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by kuroyanagi

Norea told Suletta last episode that Sophie dying was not her fault, but all of a sudden Nika, who basically sat out the events of last episode, is responsible? I had to rewatch the episode twice to confirm that no, I did not miss anything, this is just Norea lashing out at whoever is handy and can't fight back while conveniently ignoring the actual perpetrators standing behind her.

The scene with the kids making a makeshift grave for Sophie also felt extremely bitter when we know that she basically died by Gundam-assisted suicide, ignoring retreat orders and goading Suletta into fighting.

Next episode, Guel and Olcott bond while crossing a desert, I guess?

Sophie was dead the moment she decided to try a rematch against Suletta and Aerial and she made that decision long before Nika tried to rat them out.

The only person who could have saved Sophie is Norea if she had decided to pulp Nika and Suletta right then and there.

She can't admit that, so she shifts the blame to Nika.

Originally Posted by Key Board

I just realized neither Norea and Nika have the full context of each other's actions

Nika thinks Norea just committed tantrum terrorism. Nika doesn't know it was a plan to arrest Sarius and shift the power balance to Shaddiq. And they have no reason to tell her.

Norea thinks Nika ratted them out. She doesn't know Nika was captured before she could do anything and it was Shaddiq that told Dominicus it was DoF's doing. And he probably just pinned the blame on Nika.

//

And Shaddiq doesn't know (seemingly) that DoF picked up Guel. No one operating on full information parity here, which is true to life.

[FlareKnight]

I really don't know how this show is going to wrap all this up in the time remaining. Is there a secret reveal for a second half of the show to take it to the usual 50 episodes for Gundam? Still feels like the players are being established here.

It feels bad to say, but a Guel focused episode really was what the show needed. That guy's journey is legitimate. He's still barely able to process the death of his father and yet has to keep moving himself forward. The most he can do is try to get back to space and hopefully save his father's company from bankruptcy. Not sure if he can even manage that of course. But really, what else can he do? Good on him for at least trying to save that kid.

Yeah, Norea is just trying to vent her frustrations. If she stopped to look at herself then she'd have to blame herself for Sophie's death. Although even that isn't really true. Sophie was unstable and wanted that fight. She could have backed off at any time. If she didn't race towards her death there then she'd do so some other time. Of course I guess asking Norea to be rational is too much. She's probably barely more stable than Sophie was. Either the kind of people you get in extremist groups like that and/or a consequence of using Gundams.

Lot of small factions all maneuvering at the same time. None with the full picture and thus plenty of room for messy chaos.

[Ragashingo]

Good episode. It was a lot of fun seeing lower tech mobile suits fight. It really highlights how absurdly powerful Aerial is, being able to perfectly block and return fire with its various gunbits while these suits at best had a few rockets in a disposable pod.

Still waiting for Miorine to stop having conversations and start actually doing something. Disconnecting her from the entire rest of the cast isn't making me happy.

[belatkuro]

It's at least making Suletta grow as a character. She's holding the fort and promises to not lose until Mio returns. Which is needed since now we know that Aerial is doing some of the work in combat which kind of lessens Suletta's value.
And Mio gets to get all the exposition dumped on her conveniently so it will get out of the way later on.

[Mad Pierrot]

Man, the writers really hated Guel so much that it reminded me of Shinn Asuka. He lost every fight, he was abandoned, he kills his dad, he loses the will to live (almost reminded me of that forcefeeding scene from Evangelion 3.0+1.0 involving Shinji and Asuka) and when he finds a reason pilot a mobile suit, the kid dies. They really went through an extreme underdog story to make us care for him.

[Frontier]

Originally Posted by belatkuro

It's at least making Suletta grow as a character. She's holding the fort and promises to not lose until Mio returns. Which is needed since now we know that Aerial is doing some of the work in combat which kind of lessens Suletta's value.
And Mio gets to get all the exposition dumped on her conveniently so it will get out of the way later on.

I'm just wondering what it's going to take for Suletta to turn on her mother, either by Miorine's prodding or finding out what she plans to do with Quiet Zero.

[quagmire]

My question would be if Mio does take over Quiet Zero, does she eventually find out Eri is now a Gundam……

Or is that part left out in the Quiet Zero plan and only prospera knows. Though given Prospera fully came out with it to Bel and even alludes to this is what Quiet Zero is, hiding Eri is a Gundam is not a twist in Prospera’s plan to hijack Quiet Zero.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Frontier

I think it's all a matter of perspective.

Like, yeah, the Dawn of Fold are terrorists but from their perspective they're only acting under the interests of Earth and even if some of what they do is carry out terrorist attacks on Spacians, they also seem to be the only ones who give a darn about all the displaced and struggling people on Earth.

And to some Sophie would come off as a psycho because she acted like it but to those kids she was probably a big sister figure to them, they don't really have a frame of reference for what she was like in an MS.

Like Chubby Cool Guy seems cool but we know he helped carry out Delling's slaughter and killed Eri's dad and almost seemed happy to do so, but to him it was just doing his job.

I feel like Shaddiq's intellect and experience level puts him well beyond the "kid" label at this point.

I don't think anyone is saying Norea was in the right for beating on Nika, but Nika also isn't a trained soldier and is basically a hostage, so what else could she do? She stood up for her point of view even while Norea was beating on her.

Just put that down in the long history of convenient situations for someone to pilot an MS .

Ultimately it all comes down to people being people in a way.

It's not that I don't entirely understand where you are coming from, but as far as I'm concerned, the moral grey area disappeared when they started committing terrorism. You just don't do that. Period.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

I'd say there aren't any good guys on either side. Nor is anyone truly evil either.

To be fair, I never mentioned anything about 'good guys', and 'evil' is a word I do not like, but as I said above, I draw the line at terrorism and killing people. I have no sympathy, no matter how many children you throw at me to convince me otherwise.

...And when I say 'killing people' I am specifically referring to the conscious choice to go to a place with the explicit intent to kill, when you have every choice to not do that. Before people start splitting hairs.

[azarhal]

Originally Posted by Frontier

I'm just wondering what it's going to take for Suletta to turn on her mother, either by Miorine's prodding or finding out what she plans to do with Quiet Zero.

Prospera's goal is to make Eri happy. Why wouldn't Suletta be behind that? And Prospera has to go through Suletta to ask Eri what would make her happy and they only have a clear communication line when the permet score goes 6+.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

The most he can do is try to get back to space and hopefully save his father's company from bankruptcy.

I'd say what he should try to save/protect is what remains of his family (namely his lil bro and such) rather than the company.

Originally Posted by Dengar

To be fair, I never mentioned anything about 'good guys', and 'evil' is a word I do not like, but as I said above, I draw the line at terrorism and killing people.

You may consider DoF a terrorist group, but is what they do so different than what the Benerit group is doing on Earth? No different at all. If anything, I'd say the terrorists have the moral high ground over the Benerit group in this case, just because they're fighting for freedom while the Benerit group fights to increase their domination and profit. Though, at the end of the day all everyone achieves is perpetuating the cycle of hate and revenge, but that's part of what makes humans humans. There is no need to draw any "lines" because everyone is like that.

Originally Posted by Dengar

And when I say 'killing people' I am specifically referring to the conscious choice to go to a place with the explicit intent to kill

Like when Delling's forces slathered everyone in the Vanadis lab. Is that any different than what DoF did? Besides, what do you expect the people from Earth to do? Should they just live as slaves under Space's domination? They fight in whatever form they can, and I can't blame them for dirtying their hands. At least they aren't throwing entire Space Colonies at their enemies. This Gundam show is still lightweight compared to that.

[Twi]

I'm kind of with Dengar here. I understand why DoF did it but at the end of the day they blew up a plant and killed other people (many of who likely had children as well), kidnapped and possibly killed a ship full of workers (we never did learn what happened to Bob's boss), and then launched an attack on a school that got at least one student killed, for the sake of money. That money might be going towards resources they need and it was Shaddiq's plan, but they still carried it out and earned the wrath of the Benerit Group, who attacked them back where they were stationed, which is how you get a cycle of revenge going.

The fact that it was a refugee camp was largely on DoF, but at least they had the decency to evac everyone and those two kids being stuck behind was because they snuck off. The reason the school got shot was that the rookie had an itchy trigger finger after he was warned not to shoot first. It'd be a different story of the Group was just going to shoot up the place unwarranted or if the refugees had no relation to the group and were targeted under just suspicion, at which point they have literally no high ground and are as bad as A-LAWs from 00.

I'm genuinely glad that Guel didn't join Dawn of Fold, because while I might sympathize with the plight of Earth and they felt it necessary to become what they were, a lot of his misery comes directly from them.

[kuroyanagi]

I do get the feeling the writers are very deliberatery trying not to make Dawn of Fold look too good by focusing on all of the questionable stuff they do; to bring up another Gundam series, compare and contrast them against the Tekkadan, who does a lot of the same things - augmented child soldiers, for one - and see how they hold up.

It's usually difficult not to make the viewer root for the downtrodden underdog and yet here we are. In the span of one episode, we've got Norea horribly abusing Nika for superficial reasons; a cocky terrorist rookie who can't stand the heat and blows his cover, sacrificing a bunch of his colleagues; and a preteen orphan who narrowly commits hate-murder. It's kinda heavy-handed that the only character standing out for his competence, adherence to morals and dependability is a Spacian, trained in an elite Spacian unit.

These guys are so disadvantaged, they can't afford to be decent; they don't have the resources or manpower to do that. Being able to take the moral high ground is something only the priviledged can do. (Also signalled last season when we were told that Earthians don't have access to beam weapons and instead use live ammunition, which turns into space debris.)

(By the way, this has been bugging me - Norea seems very attached to Naji and co, but weren't we told she and Sophie are nominally not members of DoF, but were instead deployed there from somewhere else, Gundams in tow?)

[Twi]

There's a difference between fighting fair and outright terroism though. It isn't a case of targeting the head in a duel and the cockpit in a real battle, its the difference between setting up a trap knowing a superior foe is coming vs jacking a civilian shuttle so you can mask your arrival and hitting a school when they have open house so that they could kidnap a guy.

Tekkadan were PMC and even then they usually picked their targets better and were underdogs until Season 2.

Dawn of Fold are terrorist who we sympathize with because they haven't killed anyone we actually care about yet. The only reason Earth House weren't among the casualties during both attacks were because they got lucky. Norea was getting ready to blow their ship up until Nika signaled they were allies of the prince and Chuchu barely dodge a shot straight to her cockpit because Norea really didn't like how sloppy she had been. I promise you that if they had managed to kill even one of those Earth House kids you wouldn't get half as much sympathy for Sophie or the group as a whiole.

[azarhal]

Originally Posted by kuroyanagi

(By the way, this has been bugging me - Norea seems very attached to Naji and co, but weren't we told she and Sophie are nominally not members of DoF, but were instead deployed there from somewhere else, Gundams in tow?)

We first saw them at the DoF base on Earth, Norea was looking for Naji, so they seems to have always been with them. The Ur and Thorn are customized old pre-production Lfriths from 20+ years ago. These aren't new machines.

Enhanced humans + Olcott's arm suggest DoF have a witch among them. And despite Ochs Earth ghosts haven been mentioned in like episode 2 of the series, we still haven't seen a single one of them so I suspect this one is tied to Ochs.

Prospera asked Godoy to find where the Gundams were from, we should have the answer soon anyhow.

[Frontier]

I don't think the idea is that either the DoF or the Spacian government are in the right in any sense because both Spacian and Earthian only care about their own interests and trample on the other side to fulfill that.

Which is where our protagonists will come in and obviously be the middle ground trying to do the right thing, provided they find a path to do so that doesn't involve Quiet Zero.

[Kazu-kun]

For those who can't deal with DoF being terrorists, I wonder how they deal with stuff like Hathaway in which the protagonists are the terrorists. lol

Just like kuroyanagi said, you can't expect the faction that's lacking in resources and manpower to play fair. They can't afford to do things that way. Besides, the Benerit group doesn't play fair either. We know they have no qualms slathering civilians.


EDIT: On a different note, I couldn't help to notice the dude talking with Miorine wasn't quite truthful. He conveniently omitted the fact that Delling knew the Vanadis lab was about to solve the problem of Gundams frying their pilots' brains when he ordered the attack. So his motivation wasn't quite as noble as this dude made it out to be.