2008-10-02, 14:49 | Link #81 | |
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2008-10-02, 15:53 | Link #82 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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Well... they used different terms and emphasis but that was the practical upshot.
The result was they spent the next 1000 years arguing over what happens to a baby's "soul" if it checks out prior to baptism ("newborn Limbo"). Don't want to derail the discussion into religious analysis though....
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2008-10-02, 16:20 | Link #83 | |
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2008-10-02, 16:26 | Link #84 | ||||
Don't forget your lunch!
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Why Thank you! Quote:
And I didn't mean to attack you on it, just that most Pro-Choice people run around shouting on the top of their lungs that Abortion is all but pain free. Quote:
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Not in my book. Sure, I am religious and all. But I am Pro-Life because of what my moral beliefs and not because of religion. |
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2008-10-02, 16:34 | Link #85 |
Wiggle Your Big Toe
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Milwaukee
Age: 33
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Well it all depends on a persons morals and religion is only one of many factors. In my eyes morals are defined by society, philosophy, religion, or individual conscience. Thus plenty of reasons besides religion driving ones beliefs.
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2008-10-02, 16:36 | Link #86 | |
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As to my beliefs on abortion as an institution: Isn't it better for a child to have not existed than for it to exist in misery? If you can't love your child, then wouldn't it be better if said child were never brought into this world? |
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2008-10-02, 16:41 | Link #87 | |
Wiggle Your Big Toe
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Milwaukee
Age: 33
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2008-10-02, 16:41 | Link #88 | |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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edit: whoops... conversation is running faster than I could post
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2008-10-02, 16:45 | Link #89 | |
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I understand how some people want to keep fetuses alive, but honestly, it's the parent's choice. More mother than father, of course, but both should have some say. If the mother doesn't want to give birth, she should be able to have some options. The child has yet to experience life, so is it really so wrong to deprive it? If you have a television you never use, and it's stolen, is it really such a major blow to you? |
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2008-10-02, 17:03 | Link #90 |
Wiggle Your Big Toe
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Milwaukee
Age: 33
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Well the big moral question that lingers around abortion is wether or not it's murder.
My personal view on this is No. Absolutely not. It's not murder if it's not an independent person. One might argue then that it's not murder to end the life of any child before she/he reaches consciousness, but we don't know how long after birth personhood arrives for each new child. So it's completely logical to use their independence as the dividing line for when full rights are given to a new human being. Using independence also solves the problem of dealing with premature babies. Although a preemie is obviously still only a potential person, by virtue of its independence from the mother, we give it the full rights of a conscious person. This saves us from setting some other arbitrary date of when we consider a new human being a full person. Older cultures used to set it at two years of age, or even older. Modern religious cultures want to set it at conception, which is simply wishful thinking on their part. A single-cell zygote is no more a person than a human hair follicle.
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2008-10-02, 17:11 | Link #91 | ||
^.^
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Toronto
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Do you have morals and principles, things that you would stand up for and live to protect? Or is there no purpose in the idea of morals and let chaos run loose in the minds of humanity? And if you think killing the baby because you fear "misery" in it's life, are you thereby acknowledging "mercy killing" also known as Euthanasia? I personally think there are better solutions, than killing the baby like it's never happened. An example I can just bring forth, sorry if the repeat bothers some of you: Pam Stenzel. The result of a 15 year old raped girl conceiving. I invite anyone to read / see some of the things she does. Now of course not everyone turns out to who she is, but she's tough, and she's out there fighting. She doesn't even know her biological father. Her biological father probably doesn't care either, or wouldn't know. From bad, there are good results. No matter how far you're dug down. Something will eventually come back. But I'll have to agree with you. From a religious point of view, I can say that if a baby's had a miserable life all throughout and struggled to simply survive everyday, there is a place for that baby in the afterlife. However, without religion, it really is like as if nothing happened. The abortionist makes a few thousand, the woman is supposedly free from everything like it's never happened.. Hear the accounts of some of those who've had abortion. Not everyone's satisfied with the outcome. A religious belief is part of someone, because it's so in depth. And I will go on to say that those who don't have one, don't understand the depths of the conscience it reaches to because, well, like I've said, it's so in depth and personal. It's something that's not something people look to prove scientifically; after all, I think everyone here can agree with me when I say that if there Is an omnipotent and omniscient God, or multiple Gods or what you believe in, God or the Deities would easily defy human science, human logic, and human idealism. So no, I wouldn't say religion is the foundation of all morals - but it sure does bring in some good ones. But this is the funny thing. I've debated with atheists, Jehovah witnesses, agnosts, whatever. Not something I'm necessarily all proud of - took me the hard way to understand that you need to act to be heard, before you speak. But you can obviously imagine that topics as abortion is usually hot in such places. Yes, that means it does apply to certain principles which come with religion. But we shouldn't generalize the term so much; keep in mind, that things like Scientology is a religion. I'm not saying that to offend, but it's a good example of how the term "religion" covers such a variety of aspects. Heck, at this point, I think people can even say "Atheism" is a religion in some ways. But back to my topic. The funny thing is, I feel that the general populace of Pro Lifers and Pro Choicers both find it incumbent on them to follow their choice. To be fairly honest, I am still exposed to new ideas and different perspectives, and I take this in. Just by reading this thread, I've already begun to question myself again, with all the various different scenarios, and what would be the best option following each scenario. But obviously, I'm more of a life patriot than not, so Pro Life would be an appropriate title for me. What I dislike however, is that once a person takes their stance, it's sometimes very difficult to change them. In the generic look of abortion, there really are only two options - pro life or pro choice. If you go in depth to look at different scenarios, experience first hand, and whatnot, then a more fair basis could be concluded - but this is not always the case. It's kind of like the topic of religion. For example, I've asked a good friend of mine, who's much older than me, why he is a Catholic. Very vague question, but nevertheless, I got an answer back - "Well, I would say because I was born into it." Just think of all the possibilities of a different life, different religion, background, home, environment, and much more. This possible diversity is eliminated from early exposure - same thing with abortion. You know, if I was presented to a pro choice argument at first, and was convinced by others that it was right, who knows, I might have disregarded the morality of valuing what I consider to be life, and be a pro choice right now. What am I trying to say here.. Everyone, be open to different ideas. After all, if we really question everything, there isn't much of a certainty in this world that we can agree to - but only the answers that we can seek and find by ourselves. I find certain religions to be a primary tool in investigating what I really am, what life is, and what a baby is. I guess that's why we all do the things we do, even if we don't know it. So in the case of killing the baby "to prevent it from suffering from a miserable life". I can think of some good examples of individuals who would normally be deemed outkasts of society, yet are making a change in this world today. Can't you? And upon looking into these individuals, can we really justify that the baby would have a horrible life, when there are some of those who wishes for a child, but can't create life? Truly I tell you, as long as we really want it to be, there will always be a place for that baby, somewhere. That's why I don't accept abortion. Quote:
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2008-10-02, 17:21 | Link #92 | |
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The child is by all means legally a minor, and therefore has relatively no rights. The woman is an adult and has full citizenship rights. But I've digressed. The point is that pro-choice makes more sense, because it allows everyone to be happy. The pro-lifers can have all the babies they want, whereas the abortionists can kill all the fetuses they want. |
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2008-10-02, 17:44 | Link #93 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Toronto Canada
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common people saying its pro choice, i think its wrong what ever way u look at it people should not be ignorant. That human is going to one day become a person like everyone else why should they die ?
I do not think its fair for a baby to die just because the mother was stupid enough to go and have sex un protected.... How would you feel if your mother aborted you ? you would not get the chance to watch all the cool animes Aborting a baby is evil down to the root anyone who takes a life should be ashamed its sick and disgusting dont think so ? watch a video.... .i think opinions will change. People just say its pro choice....thats ignorant that little baby is not getting his own pro choice just because some slut does not wanna carry her child. |
2008-10-02, 17:49 | Link #94 | |
Don't forget your lunch!
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Aye, Religion DOES play a role in morals. I would be lying if I said that I do not derive a lot of my own from the Christian faith. However, Religion is not the ONLY player in moral development. Some draw it from philosophy, some from their life experiences and gut feelings, and others from elsewhere. Just my two cents. |
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2008-10-02, 17:53 | Link #95 |
Banned
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Trinidad.....anyone get me out of here !
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I think it's selfish to think that once you do not want the baby then you should discard of it. What is wrong with that way of thinking ? The baby is a living thing, human being! It is not trash. Sometimes you just have to go with your heart. And all those who give theories supporting abortion should think about the potential the baby can have and also the potential in life. Be more optimistic rather than pessimistic.
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2008-10-02, 17:54 | Link #96 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Toronto Canada
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It does not even matter the only thing important to understand is YOUR KILLING A HUMAN.... is that rite or wrong ???????
to top that off that HUMAN has no say in the matter, That baby could be a basketball superstar or a singer or a hockey player or a cartoonist its not fair that person would not have life if aborted..... |
2008-10-02, 18:00 | Link #98 | |
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: East Cupcake
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2008-10-02, 18:02 | Link #99 |
Just call me Ojisan
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: U.K. Hampshire
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Yes, but that's the point. If you are potentially pregnant, then it should be your choice as to what path you should take. It is your choice, moral or otherwise.
If someone else is potentially pregnant, why in the world should you be deciding the path they should take. |
2008-10-02, 19:20 | Link #100 | ||
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
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What people fail to see about this whole "Giving the baby a life it can enjoy" idea is that this ultimately supersedes the mother's decision whether she was against it or not. What if the mother did not want to undergo child birth? What if the mother had something against having a child of hers out there and knowing it too? How the heck would you know if the baby was going to enjoy this life or not? It is not even able to process thoughts as a fetus. To answer your second question is to start dealing with philosophy. I mentioned the plant and the ant to compare them to a fetus that may not even be conscious of its own existence depending on how far it is in the pregnancy. If destroying a clump of cells that is not even able to "think" so to speak is morally wrong, why is killing something like an ant not morally wrong? An ant is living, it goes through daily processes to nourish itself. And what is your definition of a true human being? If the fetus doesn't think, does it really exist? These are questions we can often ponder about and end up coming to no conclusion. For me, a fetus is no better than an ant. Quote:
Yes, it is your opinion. You can condemn those who get abortions, but taking the choice of it away from the mother is stripping her of the freedom to decide for herself. One is not able to justify a case based upon religion. I wouldn't know because I wouldn't be here. And yes you are allowed to think that, but no one should ever be allowed to take away a woman's freedom to decide.
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