Does fansubbing/scanslations hurt sales??

[WanderingKnight]

You're threading in circles. A few of us have already expressed the possibility of fansubs devaluing the product. Scroll through the thread, I'm sure you'll find those posts quickly if you've paid enough attention. Also, while the majority of people do buy DVDs for English dubs, a sizeable portion of the market buys them to get a quality shelf-space product. If they're not the majority it doesn't make them any less important.

Look, my point was that DVD distributors represent an extra hurdle the customers have to pay for. raikage argued that most people buy anime for dubs. I argued that most people watching anime watch it subbed and preferred it that way, since fansubs are extremely popular. I don't see how that's threading in circles.

[tripperazn]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

Look, my point was that DVD distributors represent an extra hurdle the customers have to pay for. raikage argued that most people buy anime for dubs. I argued that most people watching anime watch it subbed and preferred it that way, since fansubs are extremely popular. I don't see how that's threading in circles.

Well, to be fair, this is AnimeSuki, a torrent site for subbed anime, therefore, not exactly a representative of the community at large. It's possible that there isn't this population in Argentina, but in the US, at least, there are many people who prefer dubs to subs and will either buy the DVDs or wait for broadcast on TV.

It's certainly not a perspective I understand, but they do exist, and in large numbers.

[cyth]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

I argued that most people watching anime watch it subbed and preferred it that way, since fansubs are extremely popular.

No, you questioned the harm fansubs are doing. Do I need to quote you?

^The very definition of threading in circles.

[WanderingKnight]

It's possible that there isn't this population in Argentina, but in the US, at least, there are many people who prefer dubs to subs and will either buy the DVDs or wait for broadcast on TV.

Okay... then why are fansubs killing the American industry then?

Not that I agree with that particular view, I'm just using the logic of the people who argue against fansubbing.

No, you questioned the harm fansubs are doing. Do I need to quote you?

Look, let's make this simple enough:

Basic premise of American industry advocates #1: Fansubs are killing the industry.

My response to that: If fansubs are killing the industry, it means that the American industry isn't needed in the first place.

Conclusion: Eliminate the American industry and let the Japanese reap the profits directly.

If that's not how it works, then fansubs aren't killing the industry at all.

[xris]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

Look, let's make this simple enough:

Let's make it simple for you.

In the U.S., the sales of dub tapes (back in the day of video tapes) typically outsold sub tapes by a factor of x3 to x10. It varied depending on the type of series but the figures released by the U.S. companies were consistent with these figures.

Clearly on a site like AnimeSuki the preference is for subtitles but in terms of sales (in the U.S.) the preference is clearly for dubs not subs.

Now, if your argument is that since subtitle sales are such a minor portion of the sales why do they blame fansubs, then it's as been said before. It appears that while fansubs apparently don't harm popular series, they are killing the series that don't have high sales to begin with (because the fans are mostly those who prefer the subs).

The perceived loss of sales of the less popular series is one of the factors that is hurting the U.S. anime industry.

[cyth]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

Basic premise of American industry advocates #1: Fansubs are killing the industry.

My response to that: If fansubs are killing the industry, it means that the American industry isn't needed in the first place.

Conclusion: Eliminate the American industry and let the Japanese reap the profits directly.

If that's not how it works, then fansubs aren't killing the industry at all.

We've been through this already. It's not just the American industry that fansubs are hurting, fansubs are hurting the Japanese industry by devaluing their product. The minute those fansubs get posted on torrents and streaming sites, Japanese copyright holders lose control over it. Because the product is now accessible to everyone with an Internet connection, American companies cannot put appropriate prices on anime anymore because a sizeable portion of their customers can get it for free and much faster than they can deliver. What happened during the North American licence negotiations over these past few years was that the Japanese companies had to lower their licensing prices, otherwise the Americans wouldn't be buying anything and both markets would suffer as a consequence of that. The fact that the Japanese aren't charging any upfront licensing fees is a sign that the original anime industry is getting less for their product than they used to. Who knows, that extra money could be spent on improving future anime production values.

Can the Japanese effectively distribute anime DVDs themselves in the North American region? Their past record shows the opposite, such latest example being Bandai Visual that's now rethinking their strategy. You're talking about eliminating the middlemen here, but American licensors have brought over anime cheaper than the Japanese themselves ever have. But that doesn't mean much to you, does it?

[WanderingKnight]

Can the Japanese effectively distribute anime DVDs themselves in the North American region? Their past record shows the opposite, such latest example being Bandai Visual that's now rethinking their strategy. You're talking about eliminating the middlmen here, but American licensors have brought over anime cheaper than the Japanese themselves ever have. But that doesn't mean much to you, does it?

By "eliminating the middlemen" I mean what Gonzo is effectively doing right now. To distribute DVDs, I have no doubt that you need an American company, but you don't need that to distribute through the internet. Evidently the enormous mass that represent casual fans who watch anime off Youtube isn't going to pay in any way, but that doesn't mean a lot of people isn't going to ride on an open-pricing system like the one Crunchyroll and Gonzo are offering. I see Gonzo's move as a positive one, because it highlights the improved possibilities of the Internet as a distribution model. I mean, everyone pirates music, however, iTunes' store is making a lot of money. Of course, I don't claim that that's necessarily true for fansubs, especially because anime and music are two different beasts, but that doesn't mean that the possibility doesn't exist.

I've been saying this for months now, and I believe Gonzo's recent move is, at least somehow, proving my point.

Now, if your argument is that since fansubs are such a minor portion of the sales why do they blame fansubs, then it's as been said before. It appears that while fansubs apparently don't harm popular series, they are killing the series that don't have high sales to begin with (because the fans are mostly those who prefer the subs).

But "unpopular" series are the ones that get the most non-casual fans, the ones that are willing to pay a few dollars for anime. Perhaps it means dubbed DVDs, which are not in the interest of this particular group, are too expensive, and another method of distribution (again, hint: Gonzo) is in order.

[Ermes Marana]

Originally Posted by xris

It appears that while fansubs apparently don't harm popular series, they are killing the series that don't have high sales to begin with (because the fans are mostly those who prefer the subs).

That doesn't make sense. Without fansubs, if a series was not popular to begin with nobody would buy it.

Fansubs from tv source are a necessary replacement to tv in America for these shows to get any recognition.

DVD rips are a different matter.

Originally Posted by Toua

We've been through this already. It's not just the American industry that fansubs are hurting, fansubs are hurting the Japanese industry by devaluing their product.

You are being naive if you think fansubs are the reason for more people in Japan downloading anime.

The real reason is simply that technology has advanced to the point that it is easy to download anime.

If there were no fansubs, that would just mean there would be more popular torrents for raws.

The true culprit is the passing of time, which is something that is hard to fight against.

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by Quarkboy

Furthermore, have you ever used share or winny? It's not simple. Even for Japanese people.

I used to be a raw hunter; I lived and breathed Winny, was using Share before most other fansub groups, and was experimenting with Utatane around the time that I quit subbing The programs aren't easy to use because they're a bit more finnicky than the standard P2P programs that we English speakers are used to, that's true. But I don't think that BT has become popular because it's incredibly easier than using a regular P2P program. It's certainly easier to use than IRC, though.

Even assuming that people prefer to use BitTorrent to Winny or similar programs, why wouldn't the Japanese put up their own torrents? I've seen plenty of torrents for American television shows, recorded by Americans for Americans/English speakers (commercials removed, of course). When it comes down to it, what those people are doing - recording shows, cutting the commercials, and then putting them online is really no different than what the raw cappers are doing. Why would the Japanese be downloading the subtitled versions when there are non-subbed versions available? (If it really is true that a lot of Japanese are downloading the subbed versions perhaps there are other reasons - maybe nobody is making the effort to put the files on BT, or perhaps they're downloading the subtitles as an English-learning aid... I have a hard time believing that they'd download them because it's easier to get them than to get them unsubbed.) Interesting point about how some of those "tips and tricks" books include information about BitTorrent, though.

Originally Posted by Ermes Marana

Fansubs (from tv source) do not hurt sales. They are just a replacement for tv. If not for fansubs, there would be much less interest in anime in the first place. Even in Japan people can watch a series on tv without buying it, and that is what builds the desire to buy it.


DVD rips on the other hand do hurt sales. They are high enough quality that people collect them. DVD rips also devalue DVDs.


You have to recognize the difference between the two IMO.

I see it a bit differently. By your reasoning, fansubs are hurting sales. It isn't a replacement for TV, because fansubs are subtitled. This makes a huge difference. Let me explain why:

When people watch a show, it's generally a one-time thing and they're exposed to advertisements. The recording of shows, and worse, the removal of advertisements, has sparked a large issue - why would advertisers pay to have their ads shown if they know that nobody is watching it? Advertisers have to pay more to have their ads shown during peak view times and heavily watched shows - there is a whole model based around this. But that's really a side issue - the important aspect of this is that the average non-Japanese person does not speak Japanese. If a person wants to watch a Japanese show, there is now a market for two things - making the show itself available, and making it available in a form that the viewer can understand. The internet and satellite technology have arguably already made the show available to viewers. Fansubs are filling the need to have the show translated.

I would not argue that this suddenly makes shows unmarketable. I've already stated earlier that I think fansubs probably have a net positive effect. However, you can't deny that fansubs are doing a lot more than simply acting like an extension of television.

As for your remark about DVD rips vs. fansubs, it's getting difficult to distinguish the two in terms of quality. Please examine series like Gundam 00 and look at the resolution and quality of those releases. In the past DVDs were far and above the best quality, but technology has changed the game. An NTSC DVD has a resolution of 720x480. Mendoi's release of Gundam 00was released at 1280x720 - and it isn't upscaled! That's essentially HD-quality, if you want to go by marketing terms. The last DVD rips I came across were probably from a few years ago, but Mendoi's releases put those to shame. The only benefit that DVD rips would have over fansubs are the official translations (although you're stuck with the crappy DVD subtitles - fansubs can use more stylized fonts, which can contribute to the viewing experience/ease of viewing) and the dub soundtrack as well.

I hate to say it, but those insane quality fansubs put DVDs to shame. Releases like those aren't the majority of fansubs yet, but you can bet it's coming. Blu-ray isn't yet a viable competitor in consumer marketspace. Fansubbers are going to be slaughtering DVDs in terms of quality, which used to be at least one point that DVDs had over fansubs.

Originally Posted by Ermes Marana

That doesn't make sense. Without fansubs, if a series was not popular to begin with nobody would buy it.

That's untrue. Have you never browsed through a store that had anime DVDs, or even looked over titles at online shops? Some artwork might have caught my eye, and then I'd pick up the DVD or click its link and read what it was about. If it sounded appealing to me, perhaps I'd go for it and see how I liked it. Why do you think that people bought Dead or Alive Beach Volleyball?

The availability of these materials on the internet has put more power into the hands of the consumer, and fansubs are a part of that. I'm no longer easily swayed by things like sex appeal, "pretty things," shock value, or intrigue - we as consumers have more information available to us, and we can sample things for ourselves. This doesn't have to be the death of the industry, but it represents a change in marketing trends. The old marketing methods still work, but they may not be as effective. That's all that it comes down to.

[bayoab]

Originally Posted by Ermes Marana

Fansubs (from tv source) do not hurt sales. They are just a replacement for tv. If not for fansubs, there would be much less interest in anime in the first place. Even in Japan people can watch a series on tv without buying it, and that is what builds the desire to buy it.

DVD rips on the other hand do hurt sales. They are high enough quality that people collect them. DVD rips also devalue DVDs.

You have to recognize the difference between the two IMO.

How are fansubs and DVD rips any different? Fansubs at this point are providing better quality video than DVD rips. (Look at the Haruhi OP if you need evidence that even a SD fansub looks better than DVD in places.) Both of them are available long after the series has been licensed and released.

At multiple panels, the industry people have said that people come up to the booth, see a series on DVD... and eventually say "I have the fansubs of that on my harddrive. No reason to buy it." The problem really is the fan mentality, but fansubs and fansubbers aren't innocent bystanders here.

Originally Posted by Ermes Marana

That doesn't make sense. Without fansubs, if a series was not popular to begin with nobody would buy it.

There have been series that have licensed and done just fine without fansubs. I can even name a few examples of series that became "popular" with fansubs and then the sales were completely lackluster or a failure: Kodocha, Azumanga Daioh, Haruhi*.

*Haruhi sold well, but Bandai and Kadokawa have both stated that they expected it to sell far better than it did.

Fansubs from tv source are a necessary replacement to tv in America for these shows to get any recognition.

Are fansubs of Vampire Knight really needed for it to get recognition? (It is one of the top selling manga properties in the US.) Are fansubs of a Gundam series really needed?

[cyth]

Originally Posted by Ermes Marana

You are being naive if you think fansubs are the reason for more people in Japan downloading anime.

The devaluation comes on the business side of things, like when they set licensing prices to American distributors. Those are bigger chunks of money than individual DVD sales to Japanese audiences. As the time between a fansub release and an official DVD release drags on, hype and interest among consumers deflate.

Everything doesn't have a simple answer, sorry.

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

By "eliminating the middlemen" I mean what Gonzo is effectively doing right now. To distribute DVDs, I have no doubt that you need an American company, but you don't need that to distribute through the internet.
[...]
I see Gonzo's move as a positive one, because it highlights the improved possibilities of the Internet as a distribution model. I mean, everyone pirates music, however, iTunes' store is making a lot of money. Of course, I don't claim that that's necessarily true for fansubs, especially because anime and music are two different beasts, but that doesn't mean that the possibility doesn't exist.

So here lies the disconnect.

People in this thread have already mentioned that most anime shows are paid for to be broadcast on Japanese TV networks. They alone come up with little to no advertising revenue. Japanese TV broadcasts serve as promotional material for DVDs and licensed merchandise, which would be the industry's primary revenue streams. Fansubs have played the same role as Japanese TV broadcasts for English-speaking fans who are willing to follow subtitles, but on a smaller scale. The anime market doesn't function without some form of satisfying advertisement, meaning TV broadcasts, screenings, fansubs, legal Internet streaming, and a physical goods market. I think GDH's intent isn't to end their venture with Internet streaming, they will try to persuade American TV networks to put their series on air, but most importantly, they will try to sell us their physical media (DVDs and BDs), and they will do so with help from American licensing companies such as FUNimation.

You have to understand that GDH isn't counting on making substantial profits with English Internet streaming. Their intent isn't to become a martyr that will end the reign of teh TV, they are making an effort to control digital distribution in order to demonstrate its worth, to retain their products' value and to release commemorative physical goods in other regions as soon as possible (traditionally in the U.S.). Internet may as well be the future of all media distribution, but we're still far away from that point. The mentality still hasn't quite settled in, and there will always be a market for physical goods.

Note: I am not arguing against fansubs as I firmly believe the American niche anime market wouldn't be much of a market without them. But fansubbing has its negative side-effects that have become more problematic as streaming video sites went mainstream.

[Ermes Marana]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

It isn't a replacement for TV, because fansubs are subtitled. This makes a huge difference.

Not really. In order to perform the same function, fansubs need to have subtitles so that people can understand the dialogue.

If people don't understand it, obviously it cannot perform the same function.

Originally Posted by Ledgem

As for your remark about DVD rips vs. fansubs, it's getting difficult to distinguish the two in terms of quality.

I am really trying to make a distinction between SD tv quality without the dub vs high quality usually with dual audio. The SD fansub that comes out right after the show airs is basically a replacement for tv.

DVD rips are a different matter, and I would agree with you that HDTV releases are also different. I think either of those would hurt sales.

Originally Posted by Ledgem

The last DVD rips I came across were probably from a few years ago

Really? DVD rips are quite popular. Some of them even add non-official subtitles. Also, many people watch a fansub, and then wait for the DVD rip to come out later to collect it.

Even the knowledge that a DVD rip will eventually come out hurts sales. But the fansubs themselves, are the reason there is interest.

Originally Posted by Ledgem

That's untrue. Have you never browsed through a store that had anime DVDs, or even looked over titles at online shops? Some artwork might have caught my eye, and then I'd pick up the DVD or click its link and read what it was about. If it sounded appealing to me, perhaps I'd go for it and see how I liked it.

You are in a tiny minority. Very, very few people are going to spend that kind of money just by looking at a cover. Not to mention, without fansubs the anime market would not even be big enough that you could find a store here with anime DVDs.

[Triple_R]

On the general dub popularity vs. sub popularity debate...

I find that the more hardcore loves-anime-as-a-whole fans tend to perfer subs (there are exceptions - me, for one - but this is the trend I see on-line).

Then there's another group of anime fans that simply love a particular anime genre, and/or a few specific anime shows. A lot of these folks are content with the anime that they come across on their local TV stations/cartoon networks (always English dubbed if they're in an English-speaking country, of course), don't really follow how the anime industry is doing in Japan, and don't make a point of staying on the cutting edge of the anime industry when it comes to knowing what anime is coming out even before it's licensed for English dubbing.

Fansubbing is huge for the hardcore group, but probably almost non-existent for the 2nd group. Which group is the larger of the two is probably open to debate - though in the DBZ/Pokemon/Sailor Moon era I have no doubt that the 2nd group was larger.

Now? I'm not so sure.

So, any lost anime DVD sales endured due to less purchases on the part of the 2nd group probably can't be legitimately blamed on fansubbing.

However, lost anime DVD sales endured due to less purchases on the part of the 1st group perhaps can be legitimately blamed on fansubbing.

[TigerII]

I will never buys omething if I don't know what I am getting. If fansubs are eventually destroyed(Which I assume will happen in the near decade), then my anime hobby ends there. I am not spending $100 bucks(And raising due to inflation of the USD) for a series only to have it suck. With fansubs I do buy something, when they are gone, I find a new hobby.

[bayoab]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

So, any lost anime DVD sales endured due to less purchases on the part of the 2nd group probably can't be legitimately blamed on fansubbing.

However, lost anime DVD sales endured due to less purchases on the part of the 1st group perhaps can be legitimately blamed on fansubbing.

I've known people who were members of group 2 or hardcore R1 DVD buyers who never watched fansubs. Then one of their friends convinced them to actually watch a fansub or two and they stopped buying DVDs entirely and just download fansubs now.

[raikage]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

Look, my point was that DVD distributors represent an extra hurdle the customers have to pay for. raikage argued that most people buy anime for dubs. I argued that most people watching anime watch it subbed and preferred it that way, since fansubs are extremely popular. I don't see how that's threading in circles.

That wasn't my argument.

It is true, though.

My argument was that dubbing leads to television time. Subtitled stuff doesn't do nearly as well, because it's seen as too niche and because large amounts of people don't want to read their dialogue, they want to hear it.

Television time is MONEY. Big money.

And airing it on TV, leads to more people knowing about the series, which could lead to that fan starting more and more series. Gundam Wing and Cowboy Bebop are great examples of anime that drew people into the hobby.

Plus, now that you've showed Gundam Wing on TV, you can begin selling Gundam toys. That's another revenue stream.

Eliminating the Region 1 distributor (as you suggest) would wipe out all of that.

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by Ermes Marana

Not really. In order to perform the same function, fansubs need to have subtitles so that people can understand the dialogue.

If people don't understand it, obviously it cannot perform the same function.

That's the point. People claim that fansubs are an extension of TV, but do you see that the translations - which are essential for people to understand the show at all - are a service? If people liked anime and then downloaded the raws, you could claim that such an act alone would be an extension of TV. The localization of the show is huge in terms of importance. The internet has now made availability much easier - you don't need to wait for a company to make it available; you can just download it from Japanese file sharers or what have you. But the translation effort takes a lot of work, and the translation is what really draws people to a show. By doing the translation work for free, fansubbers are taking what is arguably now the most important role that the companies would play, and they're doing it for free. They're also doing a very good job for a free service.

The point is that breaking down the barriers to understanding (and thus enjoying) the show is a translation issue, which requires expertise. Given that technology has made the availability aspect much easier, localization is the last big thing for consumers. If fansubbers are handling both distribution and localization, they're doing more than acting as an extension of TV - they're performing that localization service, which at this point is probably the most important part of marketing anime to foreign audiences.

I am really trying to make a distinction between SD tv quality without the dub vs high quality usually with dual audio. The SD fansub that comes out right after the show airs is basically a replacement for tv.

DVD rips are a different matter, and I would agree with you that HDTV releases are also different. I think either of those would hurt sales.

My point was that SD releases as we know them are quickly disappearing, and the higher-quality releases are arguably equal to or better quality than the DVDs.

I don't know about the popularity of DVD rips; you seem more knowledgable about them, so I'll take your word for it when you say that people archive DVD rips rather than fansubs and such. All fansubbers that I've worked with and met, and all anime fan friends of mine never dabbled in DVD rips. That's just my experience, of course - it doesn't mean that DVD rips are much less popular.

You are in a tiny minority. Very, very few people are going to spend that kind of money just by looking at a cover. Not to mention, without fansubs the anime market would not even be big enough that you could find a store here with anime DVDs.

Well, I don't think I've made very many impulse buys based off of the cover of something. I can probably count the number of times that I've done so on one hand. The marketing of products is huge, though. Why do you think that things like promotional posters, oversize figures, and cardboard cutouts of characters exist?It isn't just to say "this show is coming out on this date" - it's to draw attention and catch your eye, to fire up interest about what this thing is about. Those are some of the more obvious marketing examples, but the reason why many covers are so elaborately done is because those are yet another marketing vector.

I also think that you're giving fansubs too much credit for their store presence. Back in the days when broadband was a new thing and DVDs hadn't even come out yet there was a regular movie store at my local mall (located in a suburb, not a major urban center) that stocked anime movies. The anime section was incredibly small compared with the rest of the store, but they had titles like Sailor Moon, Dragonball Z, Neon Genesis Evangelion, Tenchi Muyo, Gundam (probably Wing), and some of the other big titles of the time. At that time fansubs were largely still being passed around on tapes; what we now call fansubs was known as "digisubbing" and I'd imagine that it was relatively new.

xris has pointed out that spending on tape-based fansubs outnumbered retail spending by three times (yes, people had to pay for things like the cost of the tapes and shipping, at the very least), but anime was still present in stores. I'm doubtful that the store I'm citing was the only shop carrying anime, although by comparison anime has definitely become more mainstream today and can be found in much larger quantities in many more stores. How much of that can be attributed to fansubs? Probably at least a little, but I'd imagine that the real driving factor was getting anime series besides Sailor Moon and Dragonball Z shown on television.

[tripperazn]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

That's the point. People claim that fansubs are an extension of TV, but do you see that the translations - which are essential for people to understand the show at all - are a service? If people liked anime and then downloaded the raws, you could claim that such an act alone would be an extension of TV. The localization of the show is huge in terms of importance. The internet has now made availability much easier - you don't need to wait for a company to make it available; you can just download it from Japanese file sharers or what have you. But the translation effort takes a lot of work, and the translation is what really draws people to a show. By doing the translation work for free, fansubbers are taking what is arguably now the most important role that the companies would play, and they're doing it for free. They're also doing a very good job for a free service.

Well, firstly, saying that raws (definitely illegal, vs gray area for fansubs) are the replacement for TV in English speaking audiences is unfair. American TV broadcasts in Japan are NOT made in English, so that people will buy the series on DVD. Many people wouldn't even know where to find raws, nevermind understanding a single word the characters are saying.

Also, the defining difference between amateurs (fansubbers) and professionals (localization/distribution companies) is that one is paid as a job, and the other isn't. They offer the same product. You could buy amateur paintings for pocket change, but be forced to cough up a few million for a Van Gogh. The point is that the professionals must differentiate their product enough, by whatever means to make a living. Is your school's basketball team paid? No. How about the California Warriors? Yes, absolutely. It's up to them to raise the value of their product enough and produce the demand. Demand, like all things in economics, is earned and not freely given.

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by tripperazn

Well, firstly, saying that raws (definitely illegal, vs gray area for fansubs) are the replacement for TV in English speaking audiences is unfair. American TV broadcasts in Japan are NOT made in English, so that people will buy the series on DVD. Many people wouldn't even know where to find raws, nevermind understanding a single word the characters are saying.

I didn't mean to say that raws are a replacement for TV in English speaking countries, and if my wording came out that way then I apologize. Ermes Marana termed fansubs as a replacement for TV. What I took him to mean was that fansubs are sort of a logical extension of Japanese television for people who can't watch Japanese TV. I've heard that line of reasoning before - people state that they'd watch Japanese TV if they could, but since it isn't offered here they just download fansubs. The point I made is that while I could sort of agree with that reasoning for raws, fansubs are critically different than just watching Japanese TV due to the localization work (translation) that goes into it.

Also, the defining difference between amateurs (fansubbers) and professionals (localization/distribution companies) is that one is paid as a job, and the other isn't. They offer the same product. You could buy amateur paintings for pocket change, but be forced to cough up a few million for a Van Gogh. The point is that the professionals must differentiate their product enough, by whatever means to make a living. Is your school's basketball team paid? No. How about the California Warriors? Yes, absolutely. It's up to them to raise the value of their product enough and produce the demand. Demand, like all things in economics, is earned and not freely given.

I agree with this, but it isn't a fair competition between fansubs and companies. The difference between an amateur painter and a master painter is skill and fame (fame is ideally built upon skill). Each painter is roughly on equal standing otherwise - it isn't like one painter isn't allowed to paint with green.

When it comes to companies vs. fansubs, companies are facing a severe handicap. This is because fansubs are basically operating on the limits of or outside of the law. They do their work for free, but they can afford to release quickly because they don't need to negotiate licensing fees. Heck, since they don't need to worry about fees at all they can do whatever they want - plenty of fansub groups have dropped series because they lost interest in it (in other words, "they thought it sucked"), plenty have subbed series that only received hundreds of downloads, and if they screwed up a release they'd release a v2 or just leave the errors in. They don't need to worry about the monetary aspect. As far as quality goes, they're limited only by what's available and by their own motivation. The base materials available have dramatically gone up in quality, and technological innovation has made it easier to release in high quality. The fansubbers have shown their committment to quality while maintaining their usual speed.

Where does that leave the companies? What can the companies offer over the fansubbers? They can offer packaging, extras, and the official product. However, they can't offer it for free, and they simply can't release anywhere near the rate that fansubbers can. The rate of releases has always been a major complaint for most fans - they don't want to wait for months between DVD releases, they want to watch it pretty much as it comes out.

I'm not suggesting that the companies deserve monetary handouts just because they exist. However, they're competing with the product of an entity that is operating outside of the rules of the game. If fansubbers were paying licensing fees or otherwise somehow fully operating within the law (no illegalities, no grey areas) and were operating as they are now, then I'd say that the industry is falling behind and clearly could be doing better. The way things are now, though, it's an unbalanced competition.

[tripperazn]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

I didn't mean to say that raws are a replacement for TV in English speaking countries, and if my wording came out that way then I apologize. Ermes Marana termed fansubs as a replacement for TV. What I took him to mean was that fansubs are sort of a logical extension of Japanese television for people who can't watch Japanese TV. I've heard that line of reasoning before - people state that they'd watch Japanese TV if they could, but since it isn't offered here they just download fansubs. The point I made is that while I could sort of agree with that reasoning for raws, fansubs are critically different than just watching Japanese TV due to the localization work (translation) that goes into it.

Oh, sorry, I phrased my first sentence incorrectly, I understood exactly what you were saying. My point is that the actual content really doesn't matter, it's the role as a promotional vehicle is what Japanese TV and fansubs share, IMO. Regardless of content, they serve the same purpose in the chain of events that comprise the cumbersome and outdated anime distribution system.

Originally Posted by Ledgem

I agree with this, but it isn't a fair competition between fansubs and companies. The difference between an amateur painter and a master painter is skill and fame (fame is ideally built upon skill). Each painter is roughly on equal standing otherwise - it isn't like one painter isn't allowed to paint with green.

When it comes to companies vs. fansubs, companies are facing a severe handicap. This is because fansubs are basically operating on the limits of or outside of the law. They do their work for free, but they can afford to release quickly because they don't need to negotiate licensing fees. Heck, since they don't need to worry about fees at all they can do whatever they want - plenty of fansub groups have dropped series because they lost interest in it (in other words, "they thought it sucked"), plenty have subbed series that only received hundreds of downloads, and if they screwed up a release they'd release a v2 or just leave the errors in. They don't need to worry about the monetary aspect. As far as quality goes, they're limited only by what's available and by their own motivation. The base materials available have dramatically gone up in quality, and technological innovation has made it easier to release in high quality. The fansubbers have shown their committment to quality while maintaining their usual speed.

Where does that leave the companies? What can the companies offer over the fansubbers? They can offer packaging, extras, and the official product. However, they can't offer it for free, and they simply can't release anywhere near the rate that fansubbers can. The rate of releases has always been a major complaint for most fans - they don't want to wait for months between DVD releases, they want to watch it pretty much as it comes out.

I'm not suggesting that the companies deserve monetary handouts just because they exist. However, they're competing with the product of an entity that is operating outside of the rules of the game. If fansubbers were paying licensing fees or otherwise somehow fully operating within the law (no illegalities, no grey areas) and were operating as they are now, then I'd say that the industry is falling behind and clearly could be doing better. The way things are now, though, it's an unbalanced competition.

Well, yes, I agree, generally, as in that fansubbers are outperforming their professional counterparts at every turn. However, Japanese companies are no longer charging an upfront licensing fee, I hear (don't quote me on this and correct me if I'm wrong). Also, there really isn't a reason why DVDs cannot come out sooner, companies only choose to for sales reasons. The subs certainly shouldn't take long (look at Gonzo and fansubbers), and packaging/distro should take days/a week, not months.

So, what does that leave us? The industry can try to outdo the fansubbers on extras, quality (Blu-Ray and professional translators), and the thrill of physical ownership even at the status quo of their business model. The simple fact is that they simply transplanted the Japanese system wholesale across the Pacific, so it's not a wonder that they are failing miserably. If they tried, even once, to improve their business model instead of bitching at fansubbers, I'd be a little more sympathetic, but as it stands, I can only see them as passive entities in the dynamic world of business.