(CR) Honzuki no Gekokujou (Ascendance of a Bookworm)[anime]

[Cloudedmind]

Originally Posted by Haak

Well I guess that’s a valid point but imo I’d say the modern blueprint is Alice in Wonderland because it’s not hard to see how influential it was and bears much more similarities to the portal fantasies that followed after it. Blazing World on the other hand is a pretty obscure piece of work and it was more on the speculative fiction side of things. And describing modern isekai as “speculative fiction” would be…charitable.

But honestly I’d more than happy to broaden things up a bit and count speculative fiction as well. At the end of the day it’s the same point either way. That there is a thematic purpose for the setting the character is transported to whether it’s for a coming of age adventure or for exploring politics and philosophy (though I rarely see it done in the latter on its own unless it's a portal sci-fi)



I’m not saying its only kids lit. I’m just saying it’s a genre that has its roots in coming of age stories even when it stopped being largely kids lit.

There's also Ludvig Holberg's 1741 book Niels Klim's Underground Travels, and a book that's arguable as popular as Alice in Wonderland, Jonathan Swift's 1726 book Gulliver's Travels. With my first comment I was really just poking at the idea that isekai was originally kids lit. But, after reading your further comment it looks like that was a misunderstanding of what you wrote earlier. But, I will say while it's certainly true that Alice in Wonderland had a huge impact on the types of "different world/isekai" stories that came after it, it wasn't the purveyor of such stories. And, a lot of the early stuff was satirical speculative fiction, and not necessarily coming of age stores. At least, of the stuff we have on record in regards to the western variety. It would be nice if current Japanese isekai could add some of those stories in.

[felix]

Funny enough this story could easily be a book written in any period that had wide spread access to books, with only small modifications. It stands on its own just fine.

I have to disagree with this "isekai" were before anime. Maybe they were but I would just classify them as "fantasy" unless (most of) the following are in effect:

1. the world is portrayed as a cheap imitation of another medium, typically either proper fantasy or modern mediums like games
2. the world is a miniature cosmos, just large enough so that the main character can completely influence it's every aspect
3. the main character gets to enthusiastically or "reluctantly" live his usually somewhat perverted dream
4. the main character is very into "self-inserts" of situations he's imagined or wanted or fantasized about previously
5. the main character typically gains infinite plot-endowed absolute power to fix anything with minimal effort (this may or may not actually be referenced in the work as actually being powerful by the ranking system of the world) — to put it another way, they can not lose, and if they lost it was intentional
6. there is absolutely no consequence to anything; but the work is not actually a comedy

Now I know "isekai" just means "another world" and you can slap that sticker on everything you want really^{as I did as well earlier}. And it even works before the term became widespread. But as far as I'm concerned that lazy term for it is just a very appropriate lazy way to perfectly describe the (average) depth of the genre, rather then some sort of "definition" of what is and is not isekai. I'd rather not stick all the good and bad together like that, if I can help it (it doesnt make the terrible ones any less terrible).

[Random Wanderer]

Originally Posted by felix

Funny enough this story could easily be a book written in any period that had wide spread access to books, with only small modifications. It stands on its own just fine.

I have to disagree with this "isekai" were before anime. Maybe they were but I would just classify them as "fantasy" unless (most of) the following are in effect:

1. the world is portrayed as a cheap imitation of another medium, typically either proper fantasy or modern mediums like games
2. the world is a miniature cosmos, just large enough so that the main character can completely influence it's every aspect
3. the main character gets to enthusiastically or "reluctantly" live his usually somewhat perverted dream
4. the main character is very into "self-inserts" of situations he's imagined or wanted or fantasized about previously
5. the main character typically gains infinite plot-endowed absolute power to fix anything with minimal effort (this may or may not actually be referenced in the work as actually being powerful by the ranking system of the world) — to put it another way, they can not lose, and if they lost it was intentional
6. there is absolutely no consequence to anything; but the work is not actually a comedy

Now I know "isekai" just means "another world" and you can slap that sticker on everything you want really^{as I did as well earlier}. And it even works before the term became widespread. But as far as I'm concerned that lazy term for it is just a very appropriate lazy way to perfectly describe the (average) depth of the genre, rather then some sort of "definition" of what is and is not isekai. I'd rather not stick all the good and bad together like that, if I can help it (it doesnt make the terrible ones any less terrible).

Why do you choose all the worst traits of badly written popcorn isekai? As you yourself said, isekai simply refers to any story where the main character ends up in another world. The concept of isekai, as well as the term, existed before the rush of cheaply-written trash flooded the market. If you only accept isekai to mean that cheap stuff, then you're cutting yourself off from things like... well.. this series, which everyone else will still call isekai (because it is) but which is frankly a much better series than any of that stuff.

Assuming, of course, that the anime does this story justice.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Haak

I’m not saying its only kids lit. I’m just saying it’s a genre that has its roots in coming of age stories even when it stopped being largely kids lit.

A little hard to even say its "roots" are in there. The concept has come and gone over and over several times through the years; ultimately it's just a concept for a fantastic setting, and it can be a great setting for many types of stories. Just because some of the early works were aimed at children (and seriously, if you dug real thoroughly threw classical literature you'd find a lot more than just Alice and other kids' books back then) doesn't mean it's all that firmly rooted in coming of age or childhood. Again, it's just a setting, a sort of stage on which the story is acted out, and it has a broad range of uses. Yes, it's useful for coming of age as it allows the child characters to see things very different from what they normally see, do things they don't normally do, experience adventures beyond the normal world while still remaining normal kids who usually eventually wake up or come back with great lessons but no other effects. It's also useful for examination of more mature subjects by providing contrast between our world and an alternate reality that follows different rules, both in terms of science and societal norms/laws.

And here, it's useful in allowing a view of how significant an effect literature has on our world, showing a fairly realistic world where books have yet to be widely available. And it's really kind of important in this to actually have an individual in that world who's from a world like ours. If it was some sort of "psychic link" or something then there'd be a bigger buffer; ultimately both would merely be observing the alternate from the outside and wondering what their side would be like if it was more like that. This decreases the urgency, and makes the experience less raw and intense. With a bookworm actually living in such a world, there's a stronger necessity and drive to ask questions and push forward, which in turn allows a better view of the nature of a world without easily accessible books and the effects of changing this. It's even valuable that the girl was reincarnated, not just summoned there, as a child has far less control over her life than an adult, meaning she has to actually endure the world for a longer period, but at the same time a child has more time with which to make choices that will guide her future toward the goal she wants. As a child, she has less ability to deal with the problems she experiences in this illiterate world, but she has more opportunity to experiment and make connections and find a method that works to bring her dreams to life.

[Anh_Minh]

John Carter of Mars. Written in 1911, not a coming of age story.

[Znail]

Originally Posted by Haak

I’m not saying its only kids lit. I’m just saying it’s a genre that has its roots in coming of age stories even when it stopped being largely kids lit.

But it was neither first used in a kids story, nor was it commonly used in kids stories, but rather in adult books. This may be because kids books was less common then adult books, but still.

Originally Posted by Haak

I’m not saying Isekai aren’t portal fantasies just because they don’t have a coming of age element to them. They still feature a character being transported to another world so they’re still portal fantasies, just pointlessly so.

There is a point to books not written for kids as well.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

John Carter of Mars. Written in 1911, not a coming of age story.

This also have many similarities to modern Isekai in that it's a power fantasy that also inspired Superman and the super hero genre. Same author also wrote a series about Pellucidar, the world at the center of the earth. There are lots of books based on that theme, Alice adventures in wonderland was originaly called Alice adventures Under Ground. But Alice was not the first and it's an exception as a kids book, nor the rule.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Znail

But it was neither first used in a kids story, nor was it commonly used in kids stories, but rather in adult books. This may be because kids books was less common then adult books, but still.

It wasn't commonly used at all but the most well known and influential portal fantasies are largely coming of age children's literature.

There is a point to books not written for kids as well.

I didn't say there wasn't but okay.

Originally Posted by Cloudedmind

There's also Ludvig Holberg's 1741 book Niels Klim's Underground Travels, and a book that's arguable as popular as Alice in Wonderland, Jonathan Swift's 1726 book Gulliver's Travels. With my first comment I was really just poking at the idea that isekai was originally kids lit. But, after reading your further comment it looks like that was a misunderstanding of what you wrote earlier. But, I will say while it's certainly true that Alice in Wonderland had a huge impact on the types of "different world/isekai" stories that came after it, it wasn't the purveyor of such stories. And, a lot of the early stuff was satirical speculative fiction, and not necessarily coming of age stores. At least, of the stuff we have on record in regards to the western variety. It would be nice if current Japanese isekai could add some of those stories in.

I do appreciate that there were a decent amount of speculative and pulp fiction that used portals as well but I think we're downplaying the significance of Alice in Wonderland. It wasn't just hugely influential in it's own right but led to to works such as Peter Pan, Wizard of Oz and Narnia all of which were themselves massively popular and hugely influential. Gulliver's Travels is certainly a big one but I can't think of anything else.

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

A little hard to even say its "roots" are in there. The concept has come and gone over and over several times through the years; ultimately it's just a concept for a fantastic setting, and it can be a great setting for many types of stories. Just because some of the early works were aimed at children (and seriously, if you dug real thoroughly threw classical literature you'd find a lot more than just Alice and other kids' books back then) doesn't mean it's all that firmly rooted in coming of age or childhood. Again, it's just a setting, a sort of stage on which the story is acted out, and it has a broad range of uses. Yes, it's useful for coming of age as it allows the child characters to see things very different from what they normally see, do things they don't normally do, experience adventures beyond the normal world while still remaining normal kids who usually eventually wake up or come back with great lessons but no other effects. It's also useful for examination of more mature subjects by providing contrast between our world and an alternate reality that follows different rules, both in terms of science and societal norms/laws.

I mean that's fine, the main point being that it's actually thematically important. I wouldn't mind at all more Isekai were of the speculative fiction kind as well.

And here, it's useful in allowing a view of how significant an effect literature has on our world, showing a fairly realistic world where books have yet to be widely available. And it's really kind of important in this to actually have an individual in that world who's from a world like ours. If it was some sort of "psychic link" or something then there'd be a bigger buffer; ultimately both would merely be observing the alternate from the outside and wondering what their side would be like if it was more like that. This decreases the urgency, and makes the experience less raw and intense. With a bookworm actually living in such a world, there's a stronger necessity and drive to ask questions and push forward, which in turn allows a better view of the nature of a world without easily accessible books and the effects of changing this. It's even valuable that the girl was reincarnated, not just summoned there, as a child has far less control over her life than an adult, meaning she has to actually endure the world for a longer period, but at the same time a child has more time with which to make choices that will guide her future toward the goal she wants. As a child, she has less ability to deal with the problems she experiences in this illiterate world, but she has more opportunity to experiment and make connections and find a method that works to bring her dreams to life.

If only that was actually more of thing in this story, I'd consider it much more differently. The exploration of an illiterate world from the perspective of a very literate girl would be a good subject matter and Myne's urgent raw intensity would be useful in such a scenario but here it just feels flat without that kind of perspective and far too alien to be relatable on its own. The fact that she was reincarnated as a child was another misstep. We don't know if she ever returns home so we don't know if it make it a longer period (and I'd rather something be shorter and better than longer and worse). A child without the mind of child has little thematic value to it in this scenario. Its only use is to serve as a hindrance to her goals and whilst I appreciate that it does do its job as one, there are countless ways that could be done with an adult character (and which would've been far more interesting), or even just with an actual child: I can only imagine how great it would've been for a character like Aoyama from Penguin Highway to have to deal with a similar situation.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

John Carter of Mars. Written in 1911, not a coming of age story.

That's sci-fi, not fantasy.

[Random Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Haak

The fact that she was reincarnated as a child was another misstep. We don't know if she ever returns home so we don't know if it make it a longer period (and I'd rather something be shorter and better than longer and worse). A child without the mind of child has little thematic value to it in this scenario. Its only use is to serve as a hindrance to her goals and there are countless ways that could be done with an adult character (and which would've been more interesting).

No. It couldn't. This story is literally impossible to tell if Myne were an adult, and if you've actually read it you know that.

[Haak]

Don't worry, I heard you the first time.

[Znail]

Originally Posted by Haak

It wasn't commonly used at all but the most well known and influential portal fantasies are largely coming of age children's literature.

(...)

That's sci-fi, not fantasy.

Portal Fantasy is your word, Isekai is not limited to fantasy. And there are lots of books that's been written in it. It also predates traditional fantasy as those got popular later. There is even a large sub genre that wiki calls Underground Fantay, that includes Alice adventures Under Ground, but it wasn't the first one, far from it. It's rather that Alice is a kids book set in a setting used by adult books before and after.

The main reason Alice adventures in wonderland is well known today is because movies were made and well known.

[The Green One]

How is any of this on topic anymore? Don't you think we should get back to the actual series discussion? Why a mod hasn't shut this down before now is beyond me.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Znail

Portal Fantasy is your word, Isekai is not limited to fantasy.

Perhaps but this particular story is fantasy.

The main reason Alice adventures in wonderland is well known today is because movies were made and well known.

I imagine that there was certainly a lot positive loop feedback in order for a single piece of work to get so much focus but that's a massive oversimplification from my POV.

[felix]

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

Why do you choose all the worst traits of badly written popcorn isekai? As you yourself said, isekai simply refers to any story where the main character ends up in another world. The concept of isekai, as well as the term, existed before the rush of cheaply-written trash flooded the market. If you only accept isekai to mean that cheap stuff, then you're cutting yourself off from things like... well.. this series, which everyone else will still call isekai (because it is) but which is frankly a much better series than any of that stuff.

Assuming, of course, that the anime does this story justice.

I mean I too would call it isekai just because of circumstances (and for fun), but frankly its just a good fantasy. You can argue semantics but the thing that people think about when you say isekai is definitely not what this is (outside some similarities). Case to point the various discussion on how this is not this-and-that in this thread.

And no, the term "isekai" didn't enter until the trash did, so I don't think there's anything inappropriate from associating it with the trash. Its not all bad, I do enjoy the good ones, though the good ones might as well be plunked out of it since the things that makes them good is literally not conforming to all the traits I mentioned earlier. Or conforming, but as a satire of isekai trash.

This is why I don't agree with this broadaning with out limits. By the same logic, even if the character goes to some other planet in a fictional sci-fi world with spaceships it's isekai, any story with magic where they travel to the land of whatever is isekai (eg. The Ancient Magus' Bride) or if we pull hard enough even Kiniro Mosaic is isekai, since the protagonists travel to each other's "world." Such a flimsy definition just doesn't make any sense, and just is not what people think when you say the word. The intend of the word is much closer to all the negatives, rather then any positives, much like how the now out of use "moeblobs" was a negative description of certain slice of life shows.

Also it's still not some "official genre" outside of anime, manga and related novels:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_writing_genres

And even if it became one, it wouldn't get retroactively injected into everything as everyone implies. Not with all the baggage it has at the moment anyway. It's like saying "but everything was always this terrible," which is a funny thought, but clearly not true. Whatever you may consider the characteristics, its clear that older works people actually tried and the other world bits are a detail (much like in this show), and regardless of how integral they may be to the story, they are still just a detail in the grand scheme of the story. In isekai the other world is often, the only thing you're reading, the detail is the story itself, and that's all.

[BWTraveller]

I guess that's the different between the elitists who think anything that's not awesome is trash and the normal guys who think only the really awful stuff is trash. If you throw the trash label around so easily and dismiss things as garbage the moment it becomes possible to come up with some logic to define something in a bad light (even if that logic requires one ignore key points), then yeah there's practically no "isekai" that isn't "trash" except the ones that poke fun at it. And if that's the case then it makes sense to refuse to broaden the term beyond its extremely narrow limits. But I for one can't agree with such a position. I know I'm rather forgiving in comparison to some, as I can view plenty of things as "pretty good" that others dismiss outright; as long as I find something of merit I'm willing to pull it out of the trash can. But as a result I see isekai as not some label for trash, or even necessarily as a genre, but rather just a plot device plain and simple. The device can be used well, poorly, or somewhere in between. When you have a boom in a particular plot concept naturally you have plenty of stuff on the poor end to stain the image. But it's not enough, at least for me, to dismiss everything indiscriminately.

[moridin84]

Originally Posted by BBOvenGuy

Never got into those myself. I tried the first one, but the main character was too much of a jerk for me.

Good call. He got worse.

Originally Posted by felix

Funny enough this story could easily be a book written in any period that had wide spread access to books, with only small modifications. It stands on its own just fine.

I have to disagree with this "isekai" were before anime. Maybe they were but I would just classify them as "fantasy" unless (most of) the following are in effect:

1. the world is portrayed as a cheap imitation of another medium, typically either proper fantasy or modern mediums like games
2. the world is a miniature cosmos, just large enough so that the main character can completely influence it's every aspect
3. the main character gets to enthusiastically or "reluctantly" live his usually somewhat perverted dream
4. the main character is very into "self-inserts" of situations he's imagined or wanted or fantasized about previously
5. the main character typically gains infinite plot-endowed absolute power to fix anything with minimal effort (this may or may not actually be referenced in the work as actually being powerful by the ranking system of the world) — to put it another way, they can not lose, and if they lost it was intentional
6. there is absolutely no consequence to anything; but the work is not actually a comedy

Now I know "isekai" just means "another world" and you can slap that sticker on everything you want really^{as I did as well earlier}. And it even works before the term became widespread. But as far as I'm concerned that lazy term for it is just a very appropriate lazy way to perfectly describe the (average) depth of the genre, rather then some sort of "definition" of what is and is not isekai. I'd rather not stick all the good and bad together like that, if I can help it (it doesnt make the terrible ones any less terrible).

It sounds to me that your definition of "isekai" is tailored to only include anime/manga/novels you think are bad.

It's kind of difficult for other people to accept a definition so specifically defined by your tastes.

[felix]

Originally Posted by felix

[...] I would just classify them as "fantasy" unless (most of) the following are in effect:

1. the world is portrayed as a cheap imitation of another medium, typically either proper fantasy or modern mediums like games
2. the world is a miniature cosmos, just large enough so that the main character can completely influence it's every aspect
3. the main character gets to enthusiastically or "reluctantly" live his usually somewhat perverted dream
4. the main character is very into "self-inserts" of situations he's imagined or wanted or fantasized about previously
5. the main character typically gains infinite plot-endowed absolute power to fix anything with minimal effort (this may or may not actually be referenced in the work as actually being powerful by the ranking system of the world) — to put it another way, they can not lose, and if they lost it was intentional
6. there is absolutely no consequence to anything; but the work is not actually a comedy

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

I guess that's the different between the elitists who think anything that's not awesome is trash and the normal guys who think only the really awful stuff is trash. If you throw the trash label around so easily and dismiss things as garbage the moment it becomes possible to come up with some logic to define something in a bad light (even if that logic requires one ignore key points), then yeah there's practically no "isekai" that isn't "trash" except the ones that poke fun at it. And if that's the case then it makes sense to refuse to broaden the term beyond its extremely narrow limits. But I for one can't agree with such a position. I know I'm rather forgiving in comparison to some, as I can view plenty of things as "pretty good" that others dismiss outright; as long as I find something of merit I'm willing to pull it out of the trash can. But as a result I see isekai as not some label for trash, or even necessarily as a genre, but rather just a plot device plain and simple. The device can be used well, poorly, or somewhere in between. When you have a boom in a particular plot concept naturally you have plenty of stuff on the poor end to stain the image. But it's not enough, at least for me, to dismiss everything indiscriminately.

Originally Posted by moridin84

It sounds to me that your definition of "isekai" is tailored to only include anime/manga/novels you think are bad.

It's kind of difficult for other people to accept a definition so specifically defined by your tastes.

My definition of isekai still works just fine for novels such the following:

• No Game No Life
• The Wrong Way to use Healing Magic
• Arifureta Shokugyou de Sekai Saikyou (ignoring the anime)
• The Death Mage Who Doesn't Want a 4th Time
• Reincarnated as a Slime

All of these are good. And they are in line with the definition I gave.

Next, there are the stories like Okaa-san Online which I don't feel positive or negative about. And of course the shows that make fun of the genre. They also still fit fine.

And lastly there's the show like "Maou-sama, Retry!" They're not for me; you're free to convince me of my blindness of its greatness. But regardless, it fits the definition just as much as the others.

I don't see the problem here. I'm not trying to give a perfect definition, but at the same time if you don't have a better one what are you arguing with? I'm clearly not going to use "no definition." Yes, there's always some subtle parts on how things fit into what: not everything with a joke in it is a comedy, not everything with a couple in it is a romance. But that just doesn't apply for the term isekai. It was very clearly born to classify a very specific type of fantasy (just like "moeblob").

[Anh_Minh]

That definition doesn't work for Grimgar or Isekai Izakaya. Or plenty of other works which are clearly isekai and may even have "isekai" in the title.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by felix

My definition of isekai still works just fine for novels such the following:

• No Game No Life
• The Wrong Way to use Healing Magic
• Arifureta Shokugyou de Sekai Saikyou (ignoring the anime)
• The Death Mage Who Doesn't Want a 4th Time
• Reincarnated as a Slime

All of these are good. And they are in line with the definition I gave.

Next, there are the stories like Okaa-san Online which I don't feel positive or negative about. And of course the shows that make fun of the genre. They also still fit fine.

And lastly there's the show like "Maou-sama, Retry!" They're not for me; you're free to convince me of my blindness of its greatness. But regardless, it fits the definition just as much as the others.

I don't see the problem here. I'm not trying to give a perfect definition, but at the same time if you don't have a better one what are you arguing with? I'm clearly not going to use "no definition." Yes, there's always some subtle parts on how things fit into what: not everything with a joke in it is a comedy, not everything with a couple in it is a romance. But that just doesn't apply for the term isekai. It was very clearly born to classify a very specific type of fantasy (just like "moeblob").

I didn't say "great". It doesn't have to be "great" to not be "trash". But there's plenty of series that I personally would place far from the "trash" category, would even say I enjoyed, that I wouldn't call even close to masterpiece. It's not a three-tier system of "awesome", "meh" and "garbage" for me, it's a spectrum ranging from stuff like Conception to stuff like March Comes in Like a Lion, with things closer to the Conception side, and things closer to the Lion side. Unlike some, I'm very reluctant to throw words like "trash" around. Judging so harshly narrows the mind and makes it easy to miss things that may impact your judgment. I've seen people on several occasions dismiss things as utter garbage and then give reasons that aren't even close to the actual content.

Also, you actually did make it sound like it was a strict definition, one where anything that's even slightly outside the definition is not an isekai, which is a very narrow view. There's really no need to add all sorts of restrictions that merely narrow it down to such a small field, or to add requirements that are practically designed to trigger some people's trash filters. It's really an incredibly simple concept: there is another universe/reality besides our own, and a person enters said reality.

If you want to have a term for that narrower concept, why not just call it what it is: "SAO clones". There's no harm in that, and it even frees things up a bit to allow for situations where one isn't strictly in another world such as stories where, like SAO, one's literally inside a video game. It'd make more sense in my opinion, as that also gets you closer to the problem. The issue isn't having a story about a hero going to another world to have adventures and fight evil; it's not even wish fulfillment, as literature is full of that and plenty are legitimately good. It's having a story that's taking a bit too much from other stories and not doing enough to make something unique and compelling out of itself, the same as IS-clones and various other clones end up doing (though I'll admit I do like a lot of those clones, even if I can follow the formula plot point by plot point).

[grecefar]

The first thing in my mind when she create the shampoo was: good now she can make money, but then it was forgotten, but now I know it is going to work with the spoiler at the end, it's kinda funny those spoilers.

[Kanon]

That was a pleasant episode. Main (Myne?) added a bit of comfort into her new life with the shampoo, and she took the first step toward writing a book: learning how to write! She only knows how to write her name so she still has a long road ahead of her.

One part did feel really odd, and it was Main blushing like crazy after a five-year-old complimented her. Seriously, what?