[Question] Origins of Isekai Shoukan & Tensei

[RDNexus]

Originally Posted by Rinvelt

No, he's right, SAO was published on a personal site, not Narou. First Narou success was indeed Log Horizon.

Oh, the author's old blog... So SAO was there, ok. Then I guess LH really might have been one of the templates of the current Isekai Fad

[MisaoFan]

Originally Posted by 0cean

Is there a list somewhere with other late night anime from before Elf wo Karu Mono-tachi?

According to Wikipedia:

The earliest late night anime titles include Sennin Buraku (仙人部落) (1963–1964), Lemon Angel (レモンエンジェル Remon Enjeru) (1987), and Super Zugan (スーパーヅガン Sūpā Zugan) (1992). All of them were transmitted on Fuji TV. Sennin Buraku was from the longest running manga ever, still published in an adult magazine called Weekly Asahi Geinō. Lemon Angel was an adult anime that is a spin-off of the adult OVA Cream Lemon. Super Zugan was from a manga about mahjong. Those titles received some attention, but remained single experimental programs.

Let's not forget that the very first Golgo 13 anime from the 70s also aired late at night as well.

[0cean]

I don't know about that show from the 1960s, but Lemon Angel was just a series of music videos. They were less than five minutes each. That wasn't a real TV show. Though, some of them were quite funny. Super Zugan looked like crap, so I never bothered watching it. Maybe I'll reconsider.

[0cean]

I was thinking about this a little longer and now I have to retract my statement, that it was SAO. Looking at the timeline makes it especially clear, since SAO was already in good company when it came out in 2012: Hagure Yuusha no Aesthetica, Oda Nobuna no Yabou and Ixion Saga DT. Also, in 2012 aired the fourth season of the one that started it all back in 2006: Zero no Tsukaima.

Before Zero no Tsukaima isekai anime were decidedly different from the ones after Zero no Tsukaima. It also makes sense for the success of Zero no Tsukaima to take a while before it affected anything. It probably started around 2009 with a new Inuyasha anime - whoever imagined that one to happen? - and a long running OVA series called Iseakai no Seikishi Monogatari, before the genre just erupted 2012 and can't seem to catch a break since.

[RDNexus]

Isekai no Seikishi Monogatari, originally a spin-off of Tenchi Muyo!...until the latest OVA series

[wuhugm]

Isekai no Seikishi Monogatari is best isekai anime series for me

The harem is superior especially~

[RDNexus]

I also enjoyed that story quite much...if weren't for the irregular releases and questionable subs at the time...
And yes, I haven't rewatched it as of late...

[kari-no-sugata II]

Heh, only just spotted this thread. For what it's worth I agree with other posters is that it's SAO that helped publishers realise that there was money to be made from publishing WNs, rather than specifically helping kickstart the fad in isekai/tensei. I wonder what publishers in Japan would say though?

I think a lot (but not all) of the game-like elements in WNs is simply because gamer culture itself is very strong in Japan. I also think this partly helps explain why many protagonists are so lacking in character (why would a game designer give a player controlled character a lot of personality? I think this lack has leaked over into many WNs with game elements). If we look at the WNs aimed at a female audience a very common template is "reincarnated as the villainess character from an otome game", which is again something I would put down to gamer culture.

I wouldn't say I know enough to speak authoritatively, but if I was to pick one particular source for the "reincarnated in another world" trend I would pick "Mushoku Tensei". I'm not sure what I would pick for "transported to another world" though. It's not really something that's ever really gone away. I've seen people suggest Log Horizon but how old are the original WNs for "kono subarashii sekai ni shukufuku"?

[bakato]

Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata II

I think a lot (but not all) of the game-like elements in WNs is simply because gamer culture itself is very strong in Japan. I also think this partly helps explain why many protagonists are so lacking in character (why would a game designer give a player controlled character a lot of personality? I think this lack has leaked over into many WNs with game elements). If we look at the WNs aimed at a female audience a very common template is "reincarnated as the villainess character from an otome game", which is again something I would put down to gamer culture.

I wouldn't say I know enough to speak authoritatively, but if I was to pick one particular source for the "reincarnated in another world" trend I would pick "Mushoku Tensei". I'm not sure what I would pick for "transported to another world" though. It's not really something that's ever really gone away. I've seen people suggest Log Horizon but how old are the original WNs for "kono subarashii sekai ni shukufuku"?

This is just my personal suspicion with no facts or figures, but I think Danmachi is the culprit behind the trend of using game mechanics for power levels.

Mushoku Tensei is what put tensei on the map for this forum.

[zztop]

Originally Posted by bakato

This is just my personal suspicion with no facts or figures, but I think Danmachi is the culprit behind the trend of using game mechanics for power levels.

Mushoku Tensei is what put tensei on the map for this forum.

In Danmachi's defense, at least the author tries to incorporate the game mechanics so that it intergrates with the worldbuilding, rather than baldly sticking out.

For example, in Danmachi only gods can read stats and level figures, and the monster hunting mechanic ties in to the city's economy of supplying magic cores as a power source.

Newer WNs that I've seen baldly use game mechanics in the open, like how everyone can open stat menus that openly quantifies their skills in numbers (IIRC Shield Hero was one of 1st novels to openly use this).

And then you get those WNs that read less like stories and more like RPG logs (today I went for a walk and met a Lvl 75 monster with XXX and YYY stats. I was only Lvl 50 but since my stats were XXXXXYYY with added blessing of +5555 from the Goddess, I was able to beat the monster.)

[bakato]

Originally Posted by zztop

In Danmachi's defense, at least the author tries to incorporate the game mechanics so that it intergrates with the worldbuilding, rather than baldly sticking out.

For example, in Danmachi only gods can read stats and level figures, and the monster hunting mechanic ties in to the city's economy of supplying magic cores as a power source.

Newer WNs that I've seen baldly use game mechanics in the open, like how everyone can open stat menus that openly quantifies their skills in numbers (IIRC Shield Hero was one of 1st novels to openly use this).

And then you get those WNs that read less like stories and more like RPG logs (today I went for a walk and met a Lvl 75 monster with XXX and YYY stats. I was only Lvl 50 but since my stats were XXXXXYYY with added blessing of +5555 from the Goddess, I was able to beat the monster.)

Don't get me wrong. I wasn't criticizing Danmachi. It's one of the finest when it comes to using game mechanics to explain power levels. Unfortunately, like every innovative idea it spawned a thousand crappy knockoffs.

[AnimeFangirl]

It gets ridiculous in some manga where every other page is a long listing of stats and skills of one person or another. You quickly lose track of what everyone can do - or you would, if the author didn't insist on a long explanation of skills before, during and after every battle.

[bakato]

Originally Posted by AnimeFangirl

It gets ridiculous in some manga where every other page is a long listing of stats and skills of one person or another. You quickly lose track of what everyone can do - or you would, if the author didn't insist on a long explanation of skills before, during and after every battle.

Yeah. It is ridiculous and renders any sort of "power up" meaningless.

[kari-no-sugata II]

Yeah, it's a shame that more authors didn't actually look at what DanMachi did and try their own variants. Instead it's just pure game mechanics without any logic... for the most part.

Things I like about the DanMachi implementation: it's concise and simple and largely makes sense. It's also integrated and real - you get your "status" from your god who is also the only person who can update it, making it an "event" and also blocks the cheap "protagonist gets a power-up in the middle of battle". It generally forces you to specialise to some degree - you can't be both a top-tier magician and a top-tier warrior for example (though this isn't to say that warriors can't use magic and magicians can't use combat). It doesn't take away the importance of personal training and achievement - it can't turn you from a newbie to a trained warrior or magician overnight, though sometimes new "skills" can unlock entirely new abilities it mostly enhances what's already there.

[RDNexus]

Many of those authors may also be dedicated gamers and see in their original stories the chance of fanfic-ing what they could be fantasizing during gameplay.

Of course, this is just a speculation of my part, only said authors could confirm or deny such claims.

[Haak]

I maintain that the game mechanics are a largely cultural thing as well as what xrick said. Most of these writers are heavily influenced by game versions of western medieval fantasies. I don't think you can attribute this element as originating from one particular work.

On a side note, I've also talked at length about why this will always be a limiting factor to the story outside a certain niche fanbase.

[erneiz_hyde]

Oh yeah, now that you mention it this "game mechanics" culture thing actually permeates to "normal" (those not using game mechanics) Japanese fantasy stories in that, a lot of the "common sense" in there is actually non-sense. I guess that is also why Japanese fantasy stories tend to have characters wearing armors that provides no sense nor protection whatsoever, because that's how armors tend to look in western medieval fantasy games.