Macross Delta - Episode 17 Discussion / Poll

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Benigmatica

@magnuskn
Speaking of Hayate's father, I wonder who contact him to steal the dimension bomb and drop it onto the garrison base at Windermere?

While I have a feeling that Roid Brehm contact Wright Immelman since he released the footage, I think that it was someone else who did it.

Correction. He established contact with Windermere rebels, but nowhere is said they were the ones who told him anything about dropping a bomb. Considering Gramia, the king, dislike for nuking earth and such (and Windermerian's connection with environment), I frankly doubt they did it. Chuck even stated that Windermerians were telling the truth in this episode. The bomb was probably about to detonate courtesy of our Evil NUNS Overlords (TM) and Wright, who was stealing it so they would not use it, had no other choice but drop it somewhere.

Roid was 13 years old at the time. I doubt he did anything when he was involved with nursing Keith who was shot down in another different area when the bomb blew up (so the flashback they had implied). He simply found the footage later.

Roid has zero connection with Hayate. My bet is that Cassim was around when they contacted Wright and Hayate will find out part of the truth next episode which will set him against the evil NUNS faction that brought the bomb in the first place and continued their hostile invasion of an autonomous planet. Meanwhile Cassim will organize whatever internal resistance is against Roid's galaxy conquest plan, we know Hermann is against it (and he implies Keith isn't keen on it either). I see this as having two 'enemies' to deal with Roid being the lesser fish in the sea. Freyja can assist Cassim and her people while Hayate sets course to find out the Truth (tm) with his Delta buddies against those shady NUNS higher ups to clear his dad's name. Juuuuuuuust a bet about the direction of the show will take (and one opening for poor underused Mirage to do something too. I'm not generous?).

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Sorry but that interview make it sound like Mirage was originally intended to be main love interest and Freya was added later.

Ehhhh. It was already confirmed that Mirage was the last character who was added into Macross Delta. I mean, it's not like the show prototype was about a school club of pilots getting powered up by their idols partners or anything and there was not even a love triangle. Mikumo was the first one created, iirc, Kawamori had her in mind since DYRL, but he never intended her to be a love interest. Sorry buddy, Freyja was always the main heroine for this (doesn't mean she'll end up with Hayate tho).

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Wait, is this a mistranslation by gg, or does Roid really believe that humans live longer than all the other protoculture manipulated races? Did he confuse them with the Zentradi/Meltrandi?

Well, Roid is obsessed with protoculture destiny thing. I think his endgame is using this conflict to take control of the ruins and seek a way to prolong the Windermerian's lifespan which, depending Kawamori's mood, it could be portrayed as wrong or unnatural with Freyja stating it is fine for them to be like this or have Mikumo handwave it and change it herself (the "love of a mother" is one of the Macross Delta theme, who else but Mikumo has some kind of 'mother role' toward Freyja?). Keith meanwhile is ruthless but a practical individual who never really give a damn about this, so he foils Roid's POV (and he loves apples, which seems to represent inner goodness or something ). The galaxy conquest thing looks like a means to and end, proving his thesis and save his people (in his POV).

[Triple_R]

Awesome episode.

My only complaint is that I felt some serious tonal whiplash with the quick pivot to the reveals pertaining to Hayate's father. Still, the content was excellent, both before and after that pivot.

The Walkure idol performance was MARVELOUS. What a treat! Now that's how you do a fun flashy fabulous idol performance! That performance was also a true terrific triple tie - It tied beautifully into the overarching plot, it tied gloriously into the HayaFrey romance, and it even tied into some excellent comedy.

Bogue's scene was so amusing. It seems like Bogue has a crush on Reina!

There was another Windermere meets Walkure scene that I found funny. Kuromitsu has joked in the past about Roid being a Walkure fan, but after this episode, I seriously think Roid might actually be a closet Walkure fan, lol. Roid's response to that Epsilon guy walking in on him honestly struck me as a mix of embarrassment and anger. "You should knock before entering!" - ha ha ha ha! Roid's like a nerdy teenager embarrassed at being seen surfing porno sites. Which is arguably appropriate for a leader enamored with his own enemies.

Now, the big Hayate reveal - No surprise there, really, as many of us were speculating this, but the execution was still excellent. As a HayaFrey shipper, I'm slightly worried at Freyja's response to it. But I'm hoping her inability to offer any reassuring words/expressions to Hayate was a mix of the anime aiming for good drama/suspense, and Freyja understandably feeling shocked herself. I'm hoping that Freyja will find it in herself to reach back out to Hayate next episode, and not allow this to badly hurt her feelings for him.

Hayate's own response to this all is excellent so far. He's so far striking just the right balance between realistic and admirable.

And, like Thess, I'm very encouraged by that brief next episode preview. There's a few different ways they could take that meeting, and I can barely wait to find out where it goes.


Some speculations - At this juncture, I think Delta is setting up to make NUNs look really bad to take some edge off of Windermere and make Windermere seem more sympathetic. So I think what happened is that Hayate's father Captain Wright learned that NUNs were planning to drop the WMD in order to devastate Windermere and win the war decisively. So Wright decided to steal the bomb, and use it before NUNs could. Wright decided to use the bomb on NUNs own military base, so that Windermere would at least gain their freedom even as they suffer terrible casualties. And NUNs likely were planning to drop the bomb somewhere that would have hurt Windermere a lot more than where Captain Wright chose to drop it.

Anyway, I'll leave it at that for now.

10/10 for a magnificent Episode 17!

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

And, like Thess, I'm very encouraged by that brief next episode preview. There's a few different ways they could take that meeting, and I can barely wait to find out where it goes.

I'm anxious and hopeful because it means either Cassim will survive this (he's kind of the biggest red shirt of Windermere) or he'll die to teach the idiot kids (twins+Bogue) and example. I hope it's the former. I'm not sure I expect Bogue or the twins to die when they are made jokes and gags (in the BD and in the show...).

I've thought about that too, maybe the target was the ruins which explains why the "operation seven years ago failed." Roid's completely super protective of that stuff too, so he would want these jokers out the board game. The ruins are the last chance his people could get a longer lifespan (not that excuse what he's doing right now, but I really doubt he's evil for evil sake unlike those four).

[FlareKnight]

Lesson learned by Bogue. Reina isn't a cheap woman .

Some good laughs and a nice concert to go along with some emotional shots for Hayate. It wasn't a shock to find out that his father was the one who dropped the bomb. But, obviously we haven't gotten remotely the whole story as to why. In fact the why is the most important piece of information here and we don't have any of it. Whether it was blackmail or something I don't know. Or even if he was killed and someone took his plane to commit the atrocity. There is definitely something going on there. Stupid to have that weapon there in the first place to be stolen. Probably intended to use it as a threat if they were about to lose the conflict. Not that it makes it good, but it's not an intended genocide run either. Certainly plays into the whole third party argument. Someone pushing both sides and likely manipulating things so that weapon would be used.

Worked out great for whoever that is. It made Windermere all the more pissed even after gaining their independence and thus pushed them onward. Not just taking their planet back but using brainwashing to establish their own dictatorship. And took full advantage of the stupidity of the NUNS in having that weapon there. The question comes down to what was being used to make that happen. Probably wasn't the mind control. Could easily threaten a ton of innocent people on Winderemere or even Hayate himself.

And yeah things are at the most sensitive time for Hayate and Freyja when all this happens. Getting as close as you can without actually being involved and then the first landmine with the age thing popping up before the bigger one. Plus the very odd resonance going on with Hayate and Freyja. Getting quite weird there.

I do think it shows the difference between Mikumo and Freyja. Mikumo has a lot of darkness that even she doesn't know about. But for all this time has been content to simply live for singing and singing alone. While Freyja wants to sing and keep singing, but that isn't the only thing on her mind. At the same time Mikumo's past is bubbling up and that is changing things. She can't be 100% about singing when there is more going on with her.

[zeross87]

what with that horrible distorted rune of freyja when hayate is having his (bad?) trip ?



it feel so ugly to me i wonder what it mean.



so the walkyure can infect 100% of all networked computer in the span of a concert ? that's sex appealing virus for you

i felt sad at those two times freyja rune turn off this ep (when hayate mention 2years as nothing and when she learn about his dad). she look so sad with her rune off

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

Mikumo has a lot of darkness that even she doesn't know about. But for all this time has been content to simply live for singing and singing alone. While Freyja wants to sing and keep singing, but that isn't the only thing on her mind. At the same time Mikumo's past is bubbling up and that is changing things. She can't be 100% about singing when there is more going on with her.

Darkness? Nah, it's just doubts, hesitation. Sort of like Freyja at the beginning. Freyja wanted to sing but didn't have a concrete goal in mind so she couldn't awaken her full potential. Then she found a goal of her own and got better. Mikumo is in the middle of the same process. Up until this point she has been singing without thinking about anything. She just has to find her own purpose now, just like Freyja did. That's all.

[Father Hentai]

Ok. Watched episode and it got a lot of detail about windermere reason to go into war with NUN. I am not going into this in this thread but address this to another thread.

What concerns me is more the synergy between Hayate and Freyja feels like becoming more an obsession by Freyja. Maybe this is something for the theory and speculation thread, but what if Freyja has gained the capability of the wind singer and is now - unbeknowst to her - pressing this emotional feelings into Hayate. Why has Hayate become dizzy, while Freyja was singing?

Episode had lesser screen for Mirage here but going into her emotional feelings in this episode wouldn't fit, as the focus was more on taking plans to infiltrate starwind sector and to write about the story of Hayates dad.

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Darkness? Nah, it's just doubts, hesitation. Sort of like Freyja at the beginning. Freyja wanted to sing but didn't have a concrete goal in mind so she couldn't awaken her full potential. Then she found a goal of her own and got better. Mikumo is in the middle of the same process. Up until this point she has been singing without thinking about anything. She just has to find her own purpose now, just like Freyja did. That's all.

Feels tough to nitpick a vague term like darkness . After all...both doubts and hesitation can easily fall into that larger category.

I think there's way more to Mikumo's path forward than simply finding a purpose. There's a whole past she's been left in the dark about that is pushing its way into her thoughts. She may find a purpose afterwards. But only after she understands who or what she truly is. She needs to find her identity before she can worry about goals.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by zeross87

so the walkyure can infect 100% of all networked computer in the span of a concert ? that's sex appealing virus for you

For pictures of Walküre members in their nightwear, please enter the root password of whatever device you're watching on. And your space credit card info.

Social engineering's still alive and well in Macross.

[Triple_R]

On Hayate's drug-like trippiness - Here's a wild speculation. Windermereans are not humans. Windermereans are substantially different from humans in at least a few different ways (life expectancy, "feeling the wind", the hair runes). Perhaps when a Windermerean experiences a certain level of romantic love, s/he starts sending out strong signals to the person that s/he loves. Strong signals from the rune, perhaps like radio frequencies. Perhaps these signals are slightly overwhelming at first, for the person receiving them. These signals might also be completely automatic, not consciously sent.

Another troubling possibility is that humans are not well-equipped to handle these Windermerean rune signals. When one Windermerean falls in love with another, the person receiving the rune romantic love signal might smoothly receive it through her/his own rune. But humans don't have hair-runes, so Hayate has no good way to capture Freyja's rune love. He's just getting swamped by it. If this is true, Hayate literally can't handle her love.

Again, just some wild speculation there. I'd sooner speculate that Hayate is picking up on something truly dark coming from Freyja, but I find that unlikely given Freyja's character (and this show's tone) to date.

Originally Posted by Thess

I'm anxious and hopeful because it means either Cassim will survive this (he's kind of the biggest red shirt of Windermere) or he'll die to teach the idiot kids (twins+Bogue) and example. I hope it's the former. I'm not sure I expect Bogue or the twins to die when they are made jokes and gags (in the BD and in the show...).

Good point. What I'm curious about is what leads to this meeting between Cassim and Freyja. Does he try to contact her because he disagrees with the current Windermere war effort and he's trying to find a way to stop it? Or does Freyja try to contact him because of what she learned about Wright Immelman? Or is it something else entirely?

I've thought about that too, maybe the target was the ruins which explains why the "operation seven years ago failed." Roid's completely super protective of that stuff too, so he would want these jokers out the board game. The ruins are the last chance his people could get a longer lifespan (not that excuse what he's doing right now, but I really doubt he's evil for evil sake unlike those four).

I also think that Roid is trying to achieve a longer life-span for his people, and maybe he thinks the secrets to achieving that can be found int he ruins.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

I think there's way more to Mikumo's path forward than simply finding a purpose. There's a whole past she's been left in the dark about that is pushing its way into her thoughts. She may find a purpose afterwards. But only after she understands who or what she truly is. She needs to find her identity before she can worry about goals.

Point taken. But I still don't see the darkness there.

Mind you, they could reveal she was the key to some superweapon or something equally silly. Even then, whatever her role was in the past, that doesn't define her current self.

[LoweGear]

*keeps pressing the give button*

.... what? I'm researching the enemy

*Continues pressing*

Also, the doujins basically just write and draw themselves at this point...

[Roger Rambo]

While the NUNS was pretty shady with the transportation/storage of that Dimension bomb to Windemere, it does seem like their responsibility for it going off is mostly negligence for failing to secure it properly rather than malice. Though I'm not sure how much better that makes the Windemere feel about the whole thing.

With that said. I'm kind of curious why more of the Windemere aren't suspicious about how counter productive the NUNS alleged actions were. While baby killing NUNS is an emotional narrative...it also doesn't make a lick of sense. One doesn't normally bring out the WMD's just to bomb their own base of operations. Windemere may have been seriously damaged with many civilian casualties, but that bombing ultimately won them the war. It's easy to see why the rest of the galaxy would easily swallow the cover story that it was the Windemere who opted to bomb their own planet in a desperate attempt to win the war. The Windemere seem an awfully trusting people to not consider how convenient that tragedy was for them in some respects.

Originally Posted by LoweGear

*keeps pressing the give button*

.... what? I'm researching the enemy

*Continues pressing*

Also, the doujins basically just write and draw themselves at this point...

See Bogue, this is why all your computer networks are infested up to the gills in malware. You see a pretty face (and ummm, other things) on the web, and you just can't stop clicking.


edit: Windemere life expectancy coming up again. Roid revealing some insecurity about the Windemere master race having such a glaring deficiency compared to the lowly Terrans. As a scholar, I think he realizes how long life/retention of experience is in many ways more useful for a technological civilization than Fold Receptors or super human strength. Humans have a wealth of life span, and they don't even seem to realize how lucky they are in that regard.

To a Windemere, Hayate's statement about being away from home/family for just a couple years as not being a big deal must be rather shocking. Most Windemere adolescents will have lost their parents by their mid to late teens. So Hayate waving off going home to visit family (since he has plenty of time to visit them later) is just a shocking reminder of how long lived humans are.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

On Hayate's drug-like trippiness - Here's a wild speculation. Windermereans are not humans. Windermereans are substantially different from humans in at least a few different ways (life expectancy, "feeling the wind", the hair runes). Perhaps when a Windermerean experiences a certain level of romantic love, s/he starts sending out strong signals to the person that s/he loves. Strong signals from the rune, perhaps like radio frequencies. Perhaps these signals are slightly overwhelming at first, for the person receiving them. These signals might also be completely automatic, not consciously sent.

Another troubling possibility is that humans are not well-equipped to handle these Windermerean rune signals. When one Windermerean falls in love with another, the person receiving the rune romantic love signal might smoothly receive it through her/his own rune. But humans don't have hair-runes, so Hayate has no good way to capture Freyja's rune love. He's just getting swamped by it. If this is true, Hayate literally can't handle her love.

Again, just some wild speculation there. I'd sooner speculate that Hayate is picking up on something truly dark coming from Freyja, but I find that unlikely given Freyja's character (and this show's tone) to date.

Windermereans are like Earthers, Zentradi, Zolans, Ragnans, and Voldorians that they are referred to as Humans (Ningen) and Humanity (Jinri).

This s why Humans from Earth are called Earthers/Eartlings/Terrans.

According to Macross Chronicle Worldguide sheet on the Bird Human certain bloodlines among Earthers have Space-Time Resonance Ability we now call this Fold Receptor Factor as persons who have it can send out Fold Waves. The Protoculture's genetic manipulation nerfed this ability in the general population.

There is a certain difference in ability with those that have it. Basara is a powerful Song Energy Fold Wave transmitter and but is weak at receiving. The Nome Sisters Sara and Mao are both powerful transmitters and receivers that they can see fold waves of people like Keith does. Ranka and Sheryl due to V-Type Fold Bacteria can tap into the Vajra fold wave frequency both transmitting and receiving. Receiving took a while as the Vajra are an alien hivemind not individuals.

What Hayate is experiencing from what I gather is similar to Sivil's reaction to Basara. The Song Energy Fold Waves Freyja is transmitting to him are so pure that it overwhelms him.


On another note anybody notice the Catgirl is back in a cameo?

edit:

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

While the NUNS was pretty shady with the transportation/storage of that Dimension bomb to Windemere, it does seem like their responsibility for it going off is mostly negligence for failing to secure it properly rather than malice. Though I'm not sure how much better that makes the Windemere feel about the whole thing.

With that said. I'm kind of curious why more of the Windemere aren't suspicious about how counter productive the NUNS alleged actions were. While baby killing NUNS is an emotional narrative...it also doesn't make a lick of sense. One doesn't normally bring out the WMD's just to bomb their own base of operations. Windemere may have been seriously damaged with many civilian casualties, but that bombing ultimately won them the war. It's easy to see why the rest of the galaxy would easily swallow the cover story that it was the Windemere who opted to bomb their own planet in a desperate attempt to win the war. The Windemere seem an awfully trusting people to not consider how convenient that tragedy was for them in some respects.

My own theory is that the local NUNS wanted a big stick in case of Zentradi. In 2059 they asked Windermere to help against a fleet. That was in their region. Outside the cluster planet Sephira which was colonized by Macross 4 in the Laramis system where Messer was supposed to go was attacked by a Zentradi fleet in 2059.

Another theory from MW is that the MDE is for Break in case of Protoculture WMD. UN Forces/Spacy has a really bad record with those that NUNS are probably paranoid when Roid found the Sigur Valens. Reaction Weapons were used against Bird Human and the Evil Series Protodevlin and it didn't scratch them.

edit: Windemere life expectancy coming up again. Roid revealing some insecurity about the Windemere master race having such a glaring deficiency compared to the lowly Terrans. As a scholar, I think he realizes how long life/retention of experience is in many ways more useful for a technological civilization than Fold Receptors or super human strength. Humans have a wealth of life span, and they don't even seem to realize how lucky they are in that regard.

Being a Protoculture fanboy Roid needs new glasses as he is blind to plain obvious to Terrans. The Protoculture are a bunch of jerks.

[Pen3]

If only Messer would survive long enough, he could have seen Kaname ass on big screen and sexy armor. A Messer nose bleed would have been funny to see.

[Faux Mecha]

i think after seeing Reina's body, Bogue proceeds to masturbate to clips of her in his Draken's cockpit in secret.........while flying it...........
STUPID SEXY ENEMY PROPAGANDA!!

[Matts]

I think after 17 episodes it's pretty clear Reina and Makina are a couple so pairing her with Bouge makes me feel incredibly uncomfortable. No offense to anyone but like. We have enough gay women in media who "suddenly turn straight because they just need a man". I like that we have one couple in this show that seems established and happy, taking them apart for het-shipping is just... I dunno.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

On another note anybody notice the Catgirl is back in a cameo?

As is Mr. "But-but-but he served his purpose in the plot" catman. ^^ We'll see what the show will do with the occupied Voldor next episode.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Matts

I think after 17 episodes it's pretty clear Reina and Makina are a couple so pairing her with Bouge makes me feel incredibly uncomfortable. No offense to anyone but like. We have enough gay women in media who "suddenly turn straight because they just need a man". I like that we have one couple in this show that seems established and happy, taking them apart for het-shipping is just... I dunno.

98% chance it's just a joke at Bogue's expense. Remember, Bogue is too cheap for Reina!

MakiRein is decently popular from what I've seen on pixiv. I really doubt they'd tear it apart for the sake of a romance between two characters that haven't truly interacted with each other even once through 17 episodes (the closest was Bogue getting freaked out by a flying/floating Reina hologram back in Episode 8).

[magnuskn]

Yeah, I hope not. That little twit doesn't deserve Reina.