On one hand, I'm inclined to think that's a bit much. On the other hand, you're right... Roid right now seems different from how he was portrayed earlier in the series, when he protected Heinz, reigned in the battle hungry knights, and indicated a desire to negotiate with NUNS (albeit from a position of strength).
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn
- Keith is supporting Roids bid to take over the galaxy for vengeance. So much for him being sympathetic.
According to the subs, when Roid asked whether Keith would support him Keith replied "I only follow the wind. As long as you stay true to the winds of Windermere, my duty remains the same."
I could be wrong, but I doubt they'd be having Keith put it like that (or point out that the protoculture Roid believes they're the true heirs to made them short lived) if there wasn't going to be a split between them somewhere down the line.
That might be so later, but for now Keith is aware of of Roids plans and is not opposing them. Hence, for the moment he supports Roids expansionist agenda.
So I have a couple general criticisms of this episode.
I think it would have worked better if some of the things this episode had touched on to flesh out/humanize the knights had been sprinkled throughout earlier episodes.
I think the VF-22 footage is probably meant to be taken at face value, but does that not seem like the sort of thing that could be faked in a universe as high tech as Macross?
I'd also been wondering why the heck the Windermereans didn't use this evidence against the NUNS years ago, but perhaps Roid figured it would be much more likely to be believed now in light of what NUNS did on Ragna.
Anyway, there's been speculation that Hayate's father is the guy who dropped the Dimension Eater on Windermere. I've been wondering if he could be the guy who Freyja got her music player from as well. (Then again, if he got shot down, you'd think the remains of his valkyrie would also be evidence...)
At first, my take was the same as FlareKnight's, and so I rated this episode 9/10. But after thinking more on it, I'm inclined to think Kawamori et al totally nailed it, and I probably should have given this episode 10/10.
Let me be clear - I still think what Windermere is doing is terrible. Frightening, even. Even if Windermere is right about what NUN did in the last war, Windermere's response is terribly disproportionate, especially now.
But I think I see what Kawamori and Nemoto are aiming for here. I think they're showing how basically good decent people, in large numbers, can be skillfully manipulated into supporting a horrible unjust war.
I truly do get where most, if not all, of the Windermere characters are coming from in this episode. More in spoiler space below, since this will be long.
Spoiler for Windermere thoughts:
The Aerial Knights are patriots, who truly believe in their people and their people's ways. At least some of their motivations and sentiments do not come from a bad place, but even these come from a place that can be perverted and twisted by a skillful manipulative leader. And they can be perverted even by the adrenaline-pumping winds of war.
Herman is a good decent family-man, a warm but practical veteran to the other Knights. But he's also a "my country, right or wrong" kind of guy. There were many Americans like Herman back during the Bush 43 Administration. Many of these people weren't bad people, really, but they felt like they had to support their people's government and the wars it brought America into. Anything else would be "unAmerican". And I think for Herman, a good Windermerean has to support its Monarch and its government, particularly on matters of war. Herman is thoughtful enough that he doesn't necessarily like it, and I think he's a good man at heart, but he's also being misguided by his patriotism.
Cassim is much the same, except Cassim's hatred of war perhaps runs deeper than Herman's. I think Cassim's motivation is "never again". Never again will his world be hurt like this. So Cassim supported pushing NUN back, strengthening Windermere enough so that they could ensure that NUN would forever leave them and their planet alone. But that's all. Cassim feels Windermere has now achieved that, so now Cassim wants blessed peace. I think he's deeply saddened over the war continuing. If Freyja ever manages to actually turn one of the Aerial Knights, I think Cassim will be the first and/or the only one.
Bogue and the twins have a real blood-thirst for the enemy that is disturbing and worthy of criticism. But even here, I think I get what's motivating them. Bogue and the twins really do want to be heroes. They clearly look up to Herman, and want to earn the old man's approval. They're young men for which proving their mettle in war is a glorious opportunity for proving their loyalty to their country and proving their worth in general.
My take on Keith is that he lives for two reasons - To serve Windermere, and to take what personal pleasure he can in the thrill of battle. But mainly, it's to serve Windermere. I think at some point Keith gave up on having a happy life for himself, and devoted his entire self to the well-being of his people. So Keith has been hardened, as we see with the cool feeling between both he and Roid, and also between Keith and Heinz. I think that Keith is actually afraid to let himself become warm and content again, he's afraid to become truly close to another human being again. Part of that could be a fear of experiencing painful loss again, and another part of that could be Keith thinking he'll serve his people best as a pure warrior unbound by emotional attachments to any particular person.
With all of that in mind, I think that this is what Keith meant by his words to Roid - If Keith believes that Roid is acting 100% in the interests of Windermere, that Roid's actions/motivations are purely focused on securing a prosperous and safe Windermere, then Keith will support Roid. Even if they disagree on politics, Keith will support Roid as long as Keith believes Roid is acting solely in the best interests of Windermere. And I think that's where there's likely to be a big fallout between Keith and Roid at some point - Roid is probably up to something that goes beyond Keith's simple vision of "for the good of Windermere". If Keith feels that Roid is acting dishonestly or deceptively, and for some scientific/conspiratorial goal of dubious value to Windermere, then I could see Keith determining that Roid has failed to be true to Windermere.
In fact, I think there's a very good chance that Roid will meet his end at Keith's blade. Or, in a wonderful parallel to Episode 8, I can imagine Freyja saving Roid from Keith.
As for the Windermere people in general - I really think that this episode does a marvelous job of showing how carefully constructed circumstances can lead an entire people astray. I think it's pretty clear that the Windermere people are not lovers of war. They were not pleased by Roid's declarations here. But here's the thing - I imagine myself taking all of this in, sitting in those stands, as just Joe Blow Average Windermere.
I don't want war, I really don't like what Roid is saying. But my people and I have been raised to love the Windermere royalty, and to support them through all struggles. This is also one of my people's most important moments - the crowning of a new King! It is a honor to be able to witness this in person. So, do I risk ruining or tainting this monumental event by making a big scene over my disagreement with Roid's war plans? Do I start shouting out disagreement from the stands, causing a commotion? At a personal level, that's a massive gamble that could get me labeled a traitor, and landed in jail, or worst.
And these sorts of thoughts are probably running through the minds of most of the Windermereans in attendance. And this is how a skillful manipulative leader can practically coerce a people into supporting a terrible war. Because nobody wants to be the first person to stop applauding at Stalin's big announcement...
What Windermere is doing is wrong, but I can totally understand why these Windermere characters are doing what they're doing.
Well... that went long. I also liked the Delta Squadron/Walkure side of this episode, and the final moment of the episode offers a lot of good potential for Hayate and his character. There's lots of good material here to chew on and speculate over.
Episode 14 left me wanting something more, and Episode 15 has richly delivered. I'm very much looking forward to seeing how the story develops from here.
At this point I really don't care about the windermereans/Aerial Knights, it doesn't matter if they tried to show their tragic pasts in this episode when for the last 14 they have been shown just attacking other planets and characters like Bogue yelling "Stop singing!" or "Go to hell walkure!!", I just simply can't, the only windermerean I care about is Freyja and maybe Herman.
Also it's a bit ironic how their main reason (or one of the main reasons) for this war, the dimensional weapon being dropped on their planet, was also what ultimately made NUNS withdraw and gained them their independence, so even if they have shown that footage I think there's still more about that event. Because what Roid said doesn't make much sense, why would NUNS retreat after dropping that bomb? (on one of their bases no less), and if they didn't want anyone elso to find out the best way to do it is finish what you started and defeat your opponents.
Now about that battle near the end, ~sigh~ on one hand we got some Draken Battroid action, and with how little they use that mode it was good to see it, on the other it's really getting repetitive and a bit boring how Windermere just steamroll through NUNS every time, now Keith singlehandedly took down a whole fleet.
If you think about it Windermere have never lose a battle, the times they retreated were because they accomplished their objective or because Roid ordered them to do it, imagine if in Frontier everytime the Vajra attacked they would just wreck the NUNS and SMS couldn't do anything about it, even in Macross 7 there were Varauta's machines getting destroyed every battle, same with the Zentradi in the original, but we can't let that happen to our bishonen squad, can we? they apparently are the only 6 pilots that windermere has.
Anyway, it seems like next episode we'll finally get some backstory and character development for our protagonist.
Yeah, there is definitely still more to come with the drop of that dimension bomb, if the story just goes "NUNS dropped a bomb, vengeance, muh sky!", it would seem way too simple, especially since Roid uses the footage to try to justify enslaving the entire galaxy. There's a twist somewhere, maybe multiple twists.
And I also am getting quite tired with the oversimplified command structure of the Windbags. Basically, it's The King -> Roid -> Aerial Knights -> Foot soldiers. Where are the generals and admirals, basically, where is the military leadership structure? The Aerial Knights are basically elite royal guards, but they don't actually command anything.
@Dash Hunter - Keith being "just that good" is a little ridiculous, yeah.
OTOH, this "feeling the wind" thing is pretty much a superpower, based on Windermere genetics. It honestly makes me think of Spider-Man's spidey sense. So at least it's not completely unbelievable that Keith is this incredibly good. The show has given Keith an actual superpower to justify it some.
For good or for ill, we pretty much have super-powered pilots capable of destroying a lot of their enemy. The only thing that seems to be able to match Keith is Hayate powered up by Freyja. So this might actually come down to a duel between two super-powered pilots. Ironic given what Messer once said to Hayate.
This is just in general for the thread/forum, but I want to make a few important clarifications about the spoiler policy.
1) Do NOT use spoiler tags if you are simply discussing the episode in question in the episode thread. This makes no sense and creates pointless spoiler tags since anyone opening this thread is expected to understand that you are talking about this episode.
2) DO use spoiler tags if you are comparing this episode or show with any other show or work, including previous Macross series or other related media (manga, etc.). This is necessary because you can't just assume that everyone else in the thread has wached/read everything you have.
I am also going to create a thread just for comparing Macross Delta with previous Macross series, and hope that more of this discussion can be redirected to that thread rather than clogging up the episode threads.
Looks like Keith has more lasting damage like I was hoping. Looks like he lost an eye from Hayate's attack. Certainly didn't slow him down in the least though...
Wasn't Keith's cockpit hit from the left side so why is his right side injured??
Think of it like this. Say a piece of debris from the damaged fighter hit Keith's visor of his helmet. It's would be flying from his left side to the right side. A shard of the visor likely broke off and followed the momentum hitting him in the right side of his face. It doesn't need to be a deep hit, just one that could nick the eye. The left side would actually be better protected in this case.
Didn't Keith looked to his left, when Hayate had a lucky hut on his cockpit? now if the bullet has hit his instrument panel and explosion came from that side, then it would make sense that his right facepart could get injured.
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Born the same day as Satoshi Urushihara... Ill fated?
@Dash Hunter - Keith being "just that good" is a little ridiculous, yeah.
OTOH, this "feeling the wind" thing is pretty much a superpower, based on Windermere genetics. It honestly makes me think of Spider-Man's spidey sense. So at least it's not completely unbelievable that Keith is this incredibly good. The show has given Keith an actual superpower to justify it some.
For good or for ill, we pretty much have super-powered pilots capable of destroying a lot of their enemy. The only thing that seems to be able to match Keith is Hayate powered up by Freyja. So this might actually come down to a duel between two super-powered pilots. Ironic given what Messer once said to Hayate.
To be honest, at this point the Wind/Fold stuff really is getting near to be the Force from Star Wars in many aspects. Some people do feel the Force/Wind and get superpowers from it.
To be honest, at this point the Wind/Fold stuff really is getting near to be the Force from Star Wars in many aspects. Some people do feel the Force/Wind and get superpowers from it.
Kind of funny we have the Force, but the mechs in this series don't have light sabers .
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I also liked the Delta Squadron/Walkure side of this episode, and the final moment of the episode offers a lot of good potential for Hayate and his character. There's lots of good material here to chew on and speculate over. 
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