Macross Delta - Episode 12 Discussion / Poll

[Father Hentai]

I would not say there is good or evil in the decision of NUNS in this episode. It's cold military logic. I would consider their action same as Section 31 does in Star Trek. They aren't' evil, but their methods are radical.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by karice67

^

Because NUN is unilaterally deciding what is best for the Ragnan government. If Ragna does indeed agree that this is the best means of protecting their planet, then sure. But were they even consulted?

Honestly, I don't fully get this. Isn't Ragna already under the NUNs umbrella? Isn't this like Star Trek's Federation deciding to do something somewhat harmful (but necessary) to one of its member planets in order to stop a grave intergalactic threat like, say, the Borg? In fact, yeah, I really like that analogy. Getting VARed strikes me as roughly comparable to being assimilated into the Borg.

In any event, I don't get the impression that Ragna is some completely independent planet here.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

What *is* Ragna's government, exactly?

Dunno exactly what form it takes, but midway through episode 6, Johnson mentions that the "autonomous government of the Ragna system" asked Chaos to help them defend against the attacks from Windermere.

The question is, how far would Ragna (as represented by its government) be willing to go in defense of its planet?

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Honestly, I don't fully get this. Isn't Ragna already under the NUNs umbrella? Isn't this like Star Trek's Federation deciding to do something somewhat harmful (but necessary) to one of its member planets in order to stop a grave intergalactic threat like, say, the Borg?

I don't get the impression that Ragna is some completely independent planet here.

As noted above, the "autonomous government" is mentioned in episode 6, and they presumably have their own views on what they're willing to do. Just as the government/leader of Voldor has apparently chosen to go along with Windermere instead of subjecting its citizens to a destructive war. If protecting the rest of the universe against the threat posed by Windemere requires the destruction of Ragna, do you really think its government would agree to that?

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by karice67

The question is, how far would Ragna (as represented by its government) be willing to go in defense of its planet?

An excellent question and one I am a bit sad that the show isn't taking time to explore it.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Windermere is severely hurting four or more planets, annexing them in remarkably short order through using what's essentially zombification, on a massive scale. This very clearly and understandably raises Windermere to the status of a major threat that's more important than any one planet alone. .

The people on the last planet were fine after their initial attack. That mind control tactic seems to be short-lived, to undo their army and take over bloodlessly. Key word is "seems." I could be wrong.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

And it's not like Ragna is going to be given the Death Star treatment anyway. It sounds like NUNs are going to try to keep the damage to Ragna down to a minimum. Is such damage still sad and regrettable? Certainly. But who's ultimately responsible for this, if it comes to it? Is it NUNs or the enemy that is pushing NUNs backs up against the wall?

It's not the NUNS' call, it should be Ragna's people choice. NUNS representative (who is from Earth, by the way, he had zero connection to Ragna and not do the jokers who he dispatched to desecrate the ruins) pretty much proved Keith right this episode. Ragna is supposed to be a free planet, but NUN lorded over it and walked over their people as if they owned it. They are unhappy about this. Look at Chuck who understands the situation better than anyone as a member of Delta Squad.

In fact, they are proving Winderemerian's point and making their cause all most justified and righteous (not their actions, mind you, but that something is rotten with the NUNs there? This should be proof).

Originally Posted by Triple_R

And there's certainly a good rationale to NUNs "destroy the Protoculture ruins" plan. It makes sense. It could undermine Windermere's entire military strategy in one fell swoop, leaving Windermere vulnerable to a truly overwhelming military response that they no longer will be able to just Var away. It is, of course, a very costly maneuver, but when the alternative is watching multiple planets get zombified...

This is Macross. A show where culture is the most important part of EVERYTHING and what connects people (along with feelings and songs). Striking against the ruins is a more serious offense than killing some random soldiers. IIRC, one of the themes is respecting the legacy of different cultures... NUNS stomping on it is indeed against the show core themes. Also Kawamori is an environmentalism. You bet the guys who are about to pollute the environment of a perfect ecosystem are far more sinister than someone brainwashing and mindcontrolling people. That's why Chaos grit their teeth in disgust while they were basically sad to fight Gramia (alternatively happy to see him). Note I don't agree with those standards, but it's kind of what's show? That guy is treated like Satan while Gramia is portrayed as a noble misguided antagonist.

Secondly, you got Ernest giving a glowing review to King Gramia, with whom he shares a positive relationship with despite being on opposite sides. Now, you have two versions of what happened in Windermere. Who do you believe bombed it? Was it the noble-sounding, if ruthless when provoked king of his people who Ernest likes or those slimmy and scummy Earthling representatives who are eager to strap bombs on somebody's else planet without permission with a sinister smirk on their faces? There is still the possibility of Epsilon, but seeing how NUNs representative are, I wouldn't put it above them having caused that and framing the king to save their positions.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Here's a question for you, Kacrice - What would you have NUNs do? What alternative do you see for them, at this point? Whoever this Lady M is, even she seems to realize that if more standard military measures can't soon stop Windermere, more drastic actions will simply be necessary.

Delta expected reinforcements. Anyway, what NUNS have to do is hold the enemy fire until the singers heal everyone. This is Macross. Freyja already found the solution because she's genre savvy. Heinz will be reached through song and get the ball rolling from there. They key bridge would be Walkure-Heinz, not whatever bombs they drop. This isn't Gundam.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I can tell you what I would have Windermere do - It's precisely what Roid is now advocating. So at least he's been made somewhat sympathetic, I'll grant that much. It's more than I can say for Keith "I'll eradicate every last Earthling if I have to!" Windermere...

After that NUN representative, I'll say that Keith is sound with his assessment of the circumstances and Roid is fairly idealistic. Naive maybe?

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by karice67

Just as the government/leader of Voldor has apparently chosen to go along with Windermere instead of subjecting its citizens to a destructive war.

Kacrice... my word, how can you make this sort of argument with a straight face? Man, is there any argument that's not too shameless for the Windermere defenders?

There is nothing hypocrtical with morally objecting to what Windermere is doing, and accepting what the NUNs are doing. One is being a brutal military aggressor, and the other is considering drastic actions to defend themselves from said military aggressor. There is nothing inconsistent whatsoever in condemning the military aggressor, but sympathizing with the defending party.

Originally Posted by Thess

After NUN representative, I'll say that Keith is sound with his assessment of the circumstances and Roid is fairly idealistic? Naive?

... Really, Thess, really? You think Keith is sound with his genocidal assessment? Because of one douchey Earthling? You think that's enough reason to discount Roid's more diplomatic approach?

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

... Really, Thess, really? You think Keith is sound with his genocidal assessment? Because of one douchey Earthling? You think that's enough reason to discount Roid's more diplomatic approach?

I don't think it's a genocide assessment, I took it more as a hyperbole vow (if he hated humans, he wouldn't respect Messer that much to the point of threatening Bogue after he insulted him). I think it's fine if he wants to kick out the people from Earth from the cluster (not humans, but those who belong or associated with the central government from the NUNS that shows no regard for the planets patrimony like that guy). Obviously, I wouldn't condone genocide, but I'm saying Keith has a realistic view of how the NUN (from what we've seen) regard protoculture in their sector.

A better approach would be Keith's pragmatism and Roid ability to push his anger aside to negotiate. Roid's weakness is his over fascination with protoculture. Anway both will fail, Heinz will succeed, IMO.

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by Thess

I don't think it's a genocide assessment, I took it more as a hyperbole vow (if he hated humans, he wouldn't respect Messer that much to the point of threatening Bogue after he insulted him). I think it's fine if he wants to kick out the people from Earth from the cluster (not humans, but those who belong or associated with the central government from the NUNS that shows no regard for the planets patrimony like that guy). Obviously, I wouldn't condone genocide, but I'm saying Keith has a realistic view of how the NUN (from what we've seen) regard protoculture in their sector.

A better approach would be Keith's pragmatism and Roid ability to push his anger aside to negotiate. Roid's weakness is his over fascination with protoculture. Anway both will fail, Heinz will succeed, IMO.

Just because he respected Messer....that didn't stop him from killing him either.

What do you think he's willing to do to people he has no respect for?

Is the guy generally right about the NUN view on protoculture? It doesn't seem like he's that far off. Is he perfectly ok with genocide? Yes, he apparently is very ok with that.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

Just because he respected Messer....that didn't stop him from killing him either.

What do you think he's willing to do to people he has no respect for?

It was a war and Messer was an enemy soldier. He doesn't hate him or anything, Keith is ready to die himself too. He's said so many times already.

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

Is the guy generally right about the NUN view on protoculture? It doesn't seem like he's that far off. Is he perfectly ok with genocide? Yes, he apparently is very ok with that.

I think he's more frustrated and angered by how the NUNs control the area rather than "kill all earthlings!" If you paid attention to the actual flow of the discussion, Roid wanted to end it to negotiate as equals when they finished securing the planets while Keith disregarded this possibility and saying he would fight until he dies and kills them all. It's more directed at his enemies that he sees as oppressors than a racial statement. It's a typical fatalistic declaration of a proud warrior guy. Keith may appear cold and collected, but he's actually temperamental.

[magnuskn]

I find it difficult to put much trust in the words of persons who are totally a-ok with mindraping billions.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Kacrice... my word, how can you make this sort of argument with a straight face? Man, is there any argument that's not too shameless for the Windermere defenders?

There is nothing hypocrtical with morally objecting to what Windermere is doing, and accepting what the NUNs are doing. One is being a brutal military aggressor, and the other is considering drastic actions to defend themselves from said military aggressor. There is nothing inconsistent whatsoever in condemning the military aggressor, but sympathizing with the defending party.

I don't like being painted as a "Windermere defender." I have always stated that I find their methods morally wrong, but understand their reasoning. If you think that fits your description, fine, but I will continue to maintain that my position is more nuanced that you are allowing for with such a simple denigration ("shameless," really?) of it.

My main contention has always been that we are judging these characters, societies and their leaders based on our values. And we happen to value the freedom to live freely more than anything else, including life. What I am pointing out is that we cannot claim to speak for everyone. That is why I am suggesting that there are people who will may choose to allow mind-control if that reduces overall loss of life. And that is why I am suggesting that the Ragnan government may not be willing to sacrifice its Protoculture ruins even if such an action may prevent them from being mind-controlled.

Granted: this is all conditional, and I am quite ready to be proven wrong with regards to Ragna. But is it really that difficult to accept that there are people who may think differently from you?

And please note: I was not speaking for the NUN, but for the Ragnan people. My reference for 'security' (the planets in the system) is different from yours (the planets(?), Windermere and the NUN).

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I find it difficult to put much trust in the words of persons who are totally a-ok with mindraping billions.

Of course I am not ok with it in principle. But if the alternative is death, and not just to me but to all of my people as well, then who am I to tell other individuals, and other societies, to behave as I would?

[magnuskn]

We have yet to see any conclusive evidence that the big hole on Windermere actually is actively harming the planet, aside from being unsightly and evoking unsettling feelings. We only have the word of the Windermeran leadership, who are not people I would take at their word.

[Tempester]

Originally Posted by Thess

Striking against the ruins is a more serious offense than killing some random soldiers. ... You bet the guys who are about to pollute the environment of a perfect ecosystem are far more sinister than someone brainwashing and mindcontrolling people.

I'm usually one to feel more neutral towards Windermere than others, but this statement is so ridiculous that it actually sounds like an strawman to make me hate them much more, and if that's the case you're actually succeeding.

I honestly hope that this is not what Kawamori is going for, because yes, blowing up some old ruins with zero casualties is far FAR less morally reprehensible than mind-controlling billions of people and making them fight and die against their own will while killing their own allies.

[Yu Ominae]

Since I haven't maybe read this particular Delta manga tie-in, has it been translated to English yet 'cause my Japanese is at N5 level...

[karice67]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

We have yet to see any conclusive evidence that the big hole on Windermere actually is actively harming the planet, aside from being unsightly and evoking unsettling feelings. We only have the word of the Windermeran leadership, who are not people I would take at their word.

And until we have conclusive evidence that it isn't, or that the Windermereans knowingly did that to their own planet, then I'm personally going to give them the benefit of doubt in that regard.

Surely we can all accept that we on this sub-forum can have different perspectives, right?

===

In any case, that'll be it from me for this week, I think. Busy week.

[magnuskn]

Sure, different perspectives are totally fine. I don't like different facts, though.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Yu Ominae

Since I haven't maybe read this particular Delta manga tie-in, has it been translated to English yet 'cause my Japanese is at N5 level...

An anon made a translated script as far as I know. Scanlation don't think so.

Know what I'd be amazed if Chuck manages to finally get a girlfriend and it is that hot green haired pilot.

[Yu Ominae]

As I suspected.

I read one of the manga featuring Roid in his pre-Delta days.

[azarhal]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

We have yet to see any conclusive evidence that the big hole on Windermere actually is actively harming the planet, aside from being unsightly and evoking unsettling feelings. We only have the word of the Windermeran leadership, who are not people I would take at their word.

Nothing in the show was said about the hole damaging the planet in any ways. That's just watcher speculations. All that was said is that it was causing shame to Windermere and that either the Windies or the Nuns did it. The "we are out of time" is about Keith and Roid short lifespan, not the planet.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Tempester

blowing up some old ruins with zero casualties.

Do you honestly believe that would have no consequences when the ruins are connected to the planet core? Especially coming from a Japanese environmentalism who made sure everyone to portray Mr. NUN representative as shady as he could without an evil laughter?

Secondly, nobody is arguing mind control is wrong, however the show is putting more emphasis on portraying the NUN envoys as unambiguously bad while Windermerians get those praises and worthy of respect glances from our heroic bunch. The whole build up now relies on Walkure persuading Heinz to put a stop to this. NUNs has become another obstacle added on their pursuit of peace because they aren't helping at all, they are just lording over a free planet, fueling the conflict by proving Keith's assumptions right, and strapping explosives on the ruins knowing fully well it could devastate Ragna. Chaos, not the NUNS or the Aerial Knights, are the protagonists. And they don't like or trust these guys.

Originally Posted by Tempester

mind-controlling billions of people and making them fight and die against their own will while killing their own allies.

Where has this been portrayed exactly? Because as far as we know, the only instance of mind control to fight complete strangers (Delta Squad) was during episode 8. In other instances, they used Var to force the armies to surrender to be quick and avoid bloodshed or was out of control frenzied. However, they are partly responsible for spreading Var which is bad. Even if they didn't start it (it's a galaxy wide problem established by Macross Extra). Once last planet armies surrendered, the population apparently returned to normal (apparently being the key word).

Nonetheless, it's possible that someone will use Heinz' voice register to weaponize this control even like they did with Ranka and Sheryl in the Frontier movies which would be problematic.