Macross Delta - Episode 5 Discussion / Poll

[deadite]

Yeah Macross gavenever portayed Military in a good light since Kawamori is anti military. He tends to make misfits, rebels and private organizations as heroes. Also Windemere needs to do everything in their disposal to get rid of a superior enemy. American revolutionaries were terrorists to.

[Gundamx]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

These civilians was not attacked, they were just in wrong time on wrong place as I said before: a collateral damage.

They were after Valkure unit which is legit military target.

Var target all Zentradi, whatever they are soldier or civilian, then used them as human shield.

[LoweGear]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Yeah, if it comes to it, I had intend mention Hiroshima and Nagasaki myself (and Dresden too), yeah these are all example of collateral damage

Do keep in mind that the atomic bomb drops was done by a power that was explicitly engaged in open war with the other power it was done to. The scale of the devastation was unlike anything seen before from a single weapon, but it wasn't like they were breaking any rules of war on that front.

On the other hand, Windermere's actions in using the Var was done when they had not openly declared war, thus they could not be counted as combatants, and therefore at the time of the Al-Shahal attack they were terrorists in every legal sense of the word. Hell, they even hid their unit markings and used jamming technology to prevent anyone from properly identifying them.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

That reasoning doesn't fly at all for what actually happened on the show. If they need this war to survive, they apparently have ways to subdue planets without massive civilian casualties (see: Vordor). The attack on Al-Shahal at least was nothing else than a terror attack. Watch the first episode again if you have forgotten that.

Again, you miss the point. It doesn't matter that they've hit civilians rather than military targets, nor that they're effectively using what we'd call terrorist methods in these first few episodes. Those rules of 'what's right in war and peace' are set up by UN Spacy (if they are the same as in our world, an assumption--I think--but one that seems reasonable). And that means that we (and UN Spacy) are the ones that are putting the moral value of "this is what's acceptable" on them; we're the one's saying "this is good; that is bad."

To the Windermereans, it's basically a question of "Who the hell are you to say 'Our way is right, yours is wrong'?" THAT, in itself, is the root of the issue.

===

And even if you want to dismiss that point, your argument doesn't fly because of the underlined claim, since it was only in this episode that they were finally able to achieve what Roid was trying to do: controlled use of Var so as to minimise casualties.

[deadite]

As cool as Ragnar is, It's sad that their world and culture is being assimilated. Humans just got lucky an alien ship crashed on our doorstep to reverse engineer.

[Annorax]

Why Prime Directive is important
But we really dont know what the colonists did. Were they asshole conqueres that took their precious apples? Were they not? We only had perspective from the knights. And their leader seem to think they are the true heir of protoculture and they are to guide their brethrens in the Brisingr star cluster...

Those colony fleet descending down upon your planet that havent even reach industrial evolution sure looks threatening though

[Annorax]

Looking back on the narration acens, it seems that Ragna got shiny new City ships while all Windamere got is the old Megaroad...

[LoweGear]

Originally Posted by deadite

As cool as Ragnar is, It's sad that their world and culture is being assimilated. Humans just got lucky an alien ship crashed on our doorstep to reverse engineer.

Being pushed by said alien ship into a war that nearly annihilated the human race is not what I'd call "lucky". Humanity got to where they are in this setting only by paying the blood of billions.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Annorax

Why Prime Directive is important
But we really dont know what the colonists did. Were they asshole conqueres that took their precious apples? Were they not? We only had perspective from the knights. And their leader seem to think they are the true heir of protoculture and they are to guide their brethrens in the Brisingr star cluster...

Those colony fleet descending down upon your planet that havent even reach industrial evolution sure looks threatening though

Sounds too much like the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere to me.

Windermere seems to be a jab at Japanese history. Megaroad fleet is the American black ships. The revolution the Meiji restoration.

Not the first time Kawamori did this in Macross. He made an entire OVA directed at Japan's whaling industry.

[Tenzen12]

I felt Windermere being similar to pre WW2 as well in some aspects.

[crimsonflair]

Originally Posted by LoweGear

Being pushed by said alien ship into a war that nearly annihilated the human race is not what I'd call "lucky". Humanity got to where they are in this setting only by paying the blood of billions.

Don't forget the power of protoculture.

[ReddyRedWolf]

I do wonder if the dimensional barrier on Windermere is similar to the Ouroboros aurora where there are fold faults.

If so NUNS can't make a first strike as it negates fold drives... Unless Chaos has Fold Dimensional Resonance System on their VF-31s. As the VF-31 was based on the YF-30.

[tsunade666]

I just watched the episode and I'm liking it. Freyja reminds me of ranks in lots of ways. Genki and being developed early. Its the same for minmei but I don't remember much aboutthe ooriginal macross/robotech. As for macross 7... Seriously. I don't even remember the name of heroine there. I only remember basara with his guitar and singing in front of that proto devil in girl but she is not that pink haired band member.

Freyja is being developed early and later mirage. I don't even know that she is the grandaugther of those 2. I know she is somewhat connected but i dont know the full details. Nice episode and messer is still strict but understandable.

[Tak]

Wind is in a peculiar situation. They have isolated themselves in a way that nothing is going in, and very little is coming out. Seriously, if the NUNS wanted to, they could potentially blockade the entire system.

Being a sole dot in the cosmos, the Kingdom should realize they have very little means in competing against the industrial might of the NUNS. Unfortunately, due to them also dying early and young, there are far more individuals who are excessively nationalistic and hawkish. There is no dissenting voice within the Kingdom, only differentiating between smaller and bigger hawks.

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

If so NUNS can't make a first strike as it negates fold drives... Unless Chaos has Fold Dimensional Resonance System on their VF-31s. As the VF-31 was based on the YF-30.

I hope NUNS have not popped a blackhole bomb or reaction weapons yet, because that would justify the Wind in more ways than one. Still, a war for independence? Within the NUNS? Kind of redundant.


- Tak

[Annorax]

Didnt Kaname or Arad said something in the line of "due to use of dimension weapon the two side stopped fighting fot the time being?" When they were talking about hisotry of NUNS-WIndamere in NyanNyan restaurant?
Pretty sure dimension weapon was used, but by whom?

I doubt it is NUNS... Judging from when a Megaroad approched WIndamere scene in intro naration, Windamere really dont seem to be that kind of threat to use dimension weapon on.
EDIT: It was Mirage

[Tak]

IIRC, the Dimension weapon was in reference to the dimension barrier the Wind erected around the planet. Thus leading to self-imposed isolation.

If the NUNS threw a blackhole bomb at the very start, there wouldn't be a Wind. Though it'd be extremely counterproductive because it'd destroy all ruins on the planet. Those protoculture assets are pretty much the Wind's only saving grace.

- Tak

[azarhal]

Originally Posted by Annorax

Didnt Kaname or Arad said something in the line of "due to use of dimension weapon the two side stopped fighting fot the time being?" When they were talking about hisotry of NUNS-WIndamere in NyanNyan restaurant?
Pretty sure dimension weapon was used, but by whom?

I doubt it is NUNS... I mean Windamere really dont seem to be that kind of threat to use dimension weapon on.

Windermere used it or someone made it looks like Windermere used it from NUNS point-of-view.

Which means that if you are on Windermere side, it might looks like NUNS used it and damaged their Fold space in the process.

[Annorax]

Originally Posted by Tak

IIRC, the Dimension weapon was in reference to the dimension barrier the Wind erected around the planet. Thus leading to self-imposed isolation.

If the NUNS threw a blackhole bomb at the very start, there wouldn't be a Wind. Though it'd be extremely counterproductive because it'd destroy all ruins on the planet. Those protoculture assets are pretty much the Wind's only saving grace.

- Tak

I dont think they said what the effect was, Arad mention that WIndamere have fold fault around, but no indication was made that it was due to some dimensional weapon Mirage mentioned.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

You are only one calling it terrorism, though.

You can count me with magnuskn. Functionally, I don't see a difference between Winderemere's actions in Episodes 1/2 and terrorism. Certainly no different from the perspective of the victims (at least with a formal war declaration people know that there are enemies out there warring against them).

Winderemere's stated motivations thus far are fine for establishing believable motivations. However, I'm not yet inclined to consider them sympathetic.

Originally Posted by karice67

As someone else has said: "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter."

That quote has some validity, but I don't see how it's applicable here. Windermere appears quite free and independent to me, so how could they be considered freedom fighters? Terrorist = Freedom Fighter applies to when an occupied people uses terrorist tactics in order to try to free themselves (as they see it). The people of Winderemere do not appear to be living under foreign occupation.


On the whole, I have mixed feelings on Episode 5. The fantastic Freja flight was lots of fun, but the timing is at best questionable. Is this really the tone Delta wants for its first episode after the main antagonists declare war?

I was a little disappointed that Freyja was so shellshocked by the media. The media coming after her like this was the absolute least Freyja and the people surrounding her should have expected. While I feel sorry for Freyja, I can't at all blame people for suspecting her of being a spy.

Anyway, I might have more to add later, but I'll leave it at that for now.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by azarhal

Windermere used it or someone made it looks like Windermere used it from NUNS point-of-view.

Which means that if you are on Windermere side, it might looks like NUNS used it and damaged their Fold space in the process.

I think the weapon in question is the dimension barrier that wraps the wind planet. It stopped the fighting because the NUNS could not overpower them through conventional means.

If the Wind did not get lucky and managed to weaponize the Var virus (a phenomenon not of their own design), there wouldn't even be a war right now. Once the NUNS learns to counter this, well...

Originally Posted by Annorax

I dont think they said what the effect was, Arad mention that WIndamere have fold fault around, but no indication was made that it was due to some dimensional weapon Mirage mentioned.

A dimension weapon against Wind is utterly and extremely counterproductive. They'd wipe out the ruins on the planet, which is the last thing the NUNS wants to happen. That and the Wind wouldn't want to blow themselves up to endanger Protoculture's legacy. Besides, they wouldn't have access to NUNS dimensional bombs, which at that time could only be made with Vajra assistance.

- Tak