F/SN UBW TV - Episode 19 Spoiler Discussion / Poll

[Geburah]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Well there is still the "Rin summons a 2nd Gilgamesh" possibility.

Logically speaking Rin only can summon either Gil (if the catalyst still works) or Emiya, since she lacks any other catalyst and she will have Emiya catalyst unless the paralel worlds where Tokiomi didnt left it to Rin or similar, but then we are talking about vastly diferent worlds on which Rin could be billonarie and had 0 cash problems to put an example

[Rising Dragon]

Or she could've found a different catalyst. This is a franchise with direct confirmation about there being infinite parallel realities, infinite possibilities. I see little reason to believe that EMIYA must ALWAYS be summoned, must ALWAYS EVER be in the Fifth Holy Grail War, that in every single possible reality where it happens, he MUST be there. Kinda defeats the whole purpose of "infinite possibility" when it comes to a franchise with confirmed alternate realities.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Or she could've found a different catalyst. This is a franchise with direct confirmation about there being infinite parallel realities, infinite possibilities. I see little reason to believe that EMIYA must ALWAYS be summoned, must ALWAYS EVER be in the Fifth Holy Grail War, that in every single possible reality where it happens, he MUST be there. Kinda defeats the whole purpose of "infinite possibility" when it comes to a franchise with confirmed alternate realities.

That's true. As far as I know the only thing that is absolute is that IF a 5th HGW happens in a timeline, Kirei won't survive it.

[Geburah]

Thats why i talked about similar paralel worlds if we talk about vastly different worlds things can be much more different, but it is confirmed that on Emiya timeline Rin had the pendant which makes Emiya summoning on that line possible, but not assured if Rin had another catalyst ready.

[Unknown Soldier]

Originally Posted by blitz1/2

Or from a nonexistent Ilya route.

Fate/kaleid liner PRISMA☆ILLYA is the Ilya route though

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Or she could've found a different catalyst. This is a franchise with direct confirmation about there being infinite parallel realities, infinite possibilities. I see little reason to believe that EMIYA must ALWAYS be summoned, must ALWAYS EVER be in the Fifth Holy Grail War, that in every single possible reality where it happens, he MUST be there. Kinda defeats the whole purpose of "infinite possibility" when it comes to a franchise with confirmed alternate realities.

But there is no reason to believe it went any other way. Just apply Occam's razor and that's what we end up with.

[Rising Dragon]

Just as there's no reason to believe that Archer's presence is absolute. Don't blame me for your own narrow-mindedness.

[TwilightsCall]

How about Saber and other servants?

Oh and, what about regular servants? Why does Alaya store them if she isn't going to use them for humanity's benefit like Counter-Guardians?

Back to this, because I find this discussion especially interesting.

Saber would be different as she never reaches the Throne of Heroes. We know she keeps memories of each HGW she participates in, but she only ever participates in the 5th HGW once, at least as far as the story covers it. Which again brings up the somewhat unpleasant implications of what happens to Saber after HF...

Other normal Servants should be the same as Archer. Their core selves would have memories of all three routes, but not the individual copies.

As for why Alaya doesn't use other Heroic Spirits, I'm not sure why you would think that's the case? I mean, they are probably used in a different way than Counter Guardians, but that doesn't mean they aren't put to use. Otherwise yeah, there would be no point for the Throne of Heroes to really exist. Assuming of course that it has no function beyond the one described in UBW, which is probably a bit of a stretch.


On another topic, gathering what we know about EMIYA's time before he was a Counter Guardian:
-He participated in the 5th HGW
-His life was saved by Rin, but he never knew Rin was the one who saved him.
-He summoned Saber and returned Avalon to her, but was unable to "save" her
-He was close to Illya, though judging by her circumstances he likely couldn't save her either
-And something I just learned recently, he encountered the Shadow from HF or something very similar to it, but was unable to do anything about it.
-He had to teach himself magecraft after Kiritsugu died
-He made a contract with Alaya to save a few hundred people 10 to 15 years after the 5th HGW.
-He was framed and murdered sometime after that.

Do we know anything more than this about his life?

[Rev Okkin]

Well, with the new stuff from the anime, we can put more elaboration to certain things

-He does know about Saber's wish (but wasn't able to change her view on it)
-The contract was made in a nuclear powerplant with armed forces stuff going on alongside it
-He was probably captured and stabbed by Magi people then put up to hanging for his death

[GDB]

He had an unnamed lover.
He got his red coat/cloak from Ciel (Tsukihime).

[blitz1/2]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Oh I know, it's part of my original point that there's zero reason to believe that somehow in EMIYAs own timeline there magically was a different Archer for no reason.

Why wouldn't there be a different Archer. There are unlimited PARALLEL worlds, HOWEVER, EMIYA has to have an ORIGIN point, hence why in Archer's life, there CAN'T be an another EMIYA.

@UnknownSoldier: Had they made Ilyaverse (No drei spoilers) Shirou more badass, more bro-con Illya/Miyu to Shirou. THEN, I MAY consider that as a possibility. But to me, Prisma Illya will never be considered an Ilya route for me (even if Nasu disagrees with me)

[monster]

Originally Posted by blitz1/2

Why wouldn't there be a different Archer.

There can be. At the same time ...

in Archer's life, there CAN'T be an another EMIYA.

There doesn't have to be if Archer is truly taken outside the normal flow of time.

Anyway, I don't think it's necessary to commit to either extreme especially when it's beside the original point.

[Levani]

Back to this, because I find this discussion especially interesting.

Saber would be different as she never reaches the Throne of Heroes. We know she keeps memories of each HGW she participates in, but she only ever participates in the 5th HGW once, at least as far as the story covers it. Which again brings up the somewhat unpleasant implications of what happens to Saber after HF...

Other normal Servants should be the same as Archer. Their core selves would have memories of all three routes, but not the individual copies.

As for why Alaya doesn't use other Heroic Spirits, I'm not sure why you would think that's the case? I mean, they are probably used in a different way than Counter Guardians, but that doesn't mean they aren't put to use. Otherwise yeah, there would be no point for the Throne of Heroes to really exist. Assuming of course that it has no function beyond the one described in UBW, which is probably a bit of a stretch.

Nasu should totally write a story where Alaya summons the real Heroic Spirits for some event... would be epic as heck.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Just as there's no reason to believe that Archer's presence is absolute. Don't blame me for your own narrow-mindedness.

Calling me narrow minded for preferring simple and perfectly fine explanations over convoluted ones that require a bunch of extra things to be true, ok, fine.

I'm totally done with this. If you have to resolve to personal attacks just to win an argument and feel good about yourself, then I'm out. I'm not interested in playing your game.

[gn_X00]

For me, it doesn't really makes sense for Archer to be summoned in ArcherShiro's timeline.. Because Archer said something about gambling on the small possibility to be summoned here (5th HGW). It doesn't make sense to said that the possibility is small if he had been summoned (or he knows that he sees himself summoned) in the 5th HGW, afterall, he knows that Rin has the catalyst if he had been summoned (or he saw himself in his timeline), so it's not a small chance to be summoned, but a small chance to be released if he managed to kill himself (because there exist infinite pararel universe, thus it's probably close to 1 for him to be summoned again in the same timeline if he knew that he had been summoned there before)

then again time travel fiction is always messed up, especially if complimented with multiple (and infinite) universe and taken outside time frame thingy

[Lorhand]

Originally Posted by blitz1/2

@UnknownSoldier: Had they made Ilyaverse (No drei spoilers) Shirou more badass, more bro-con Illya/Miyu to Shirou. THEN, I MAY consider that as a possibility. But to me, Prisma Illya will never be considered an Ilya route for me (even if Nasu disagrees with me)

Nasu was joking. Don't take everything he says seriously.

[Levani]

I've read the ANN review, simply terrible. That reviewer was bad from the start but now I am sure that they are some self-proclaimed critic who think that their opinion is somehow above the casual viewer. That pretentious tone is so annoying and jarring. And it's amazing how people are calling this episode a snorefest, it's quite telling that they're here only for fight scenes and don't give a single crap about ideals of the characters, their relationships and interactions. This episode was on-point, it was simply brilliant in every way.

But they will be entertained next week I guess, they'll have to sit through some ideal rivalry between Archer and Shirou though.

[ShadowSamurai365]

Originally Posted by Levani

I've read the ANN review, simply terrible. That reviewer was bad from the start but now I am sure that they are some self-proclaimed critic who think that their opinion is somehow above the casual viewer. That pretentious tone is so annoying and jarring. And it's amazing how people are calling this episode a snorefest, it's quite telling that they're here only for fight scenes and don't give a single crap about ideals of the characters, their relationships and interactions. This episode was on-point, it was simply brilliant in every way.

But they will be entertained next week I guess, they'll have to sit through some ideal rivalry between Archer and Shirou though.

I guess that Fate/Stay Night is one of those shows: ones where you can tell who's paying attention to detail and ones who have to be spoon-feed to even grasp a small thing (along with what you've stated about ones only looking for fights). It's also helps that there's no really distinct line between newcomers and VN readers, since most (not all) VN readers whines as much as the newcomers for small/no reason.

[Levani]

Originally Posted by ShadowSamurai365

I guess that Fate/Stay Night is one of those shows: ones where you can tell who's paying attention to detail and ones who have to be spoon-feed to even grasp a small thing (along with what you've stated about ones only looking for fights). It's also helps that there's no really distinct line between newcomers and VN readers, since most (not all) VN readers whines as much as the newcomers for small/no reason.

Whining is mostly exclusive to ANN and MAL. Animesuki and Reddit all have bunch of intellectual people who criticize the show with compelling arguments and actually discuss things without getting emotional. They show respect to one another and rarely do things go out of hand.

I think this is because MAL and ANN have terrible mod-control and are filled with trolls. MAL specifically calls people who were introduced to this franchise through Fate/Zero, secondaries. Which I guess I qualify. It's a toxic environment that a rational person needs to avoid. It's physically exhausting to read that level of bullshit. On Reddit you get immediately down-voted if you are rude. Here mods easily take care of trolls. I'm really grateful to the mod-team of Animesuki.

[ShadowSamurai365]

Originally Posted by Levani

Whining is mostly exclusive to ANN and MAL. Animesuki and Reddit all have bunch of intellectual people who criticize the show with compelling arguments and actually discuss things without getting emotional. They show respect to one another and rarely do things go out of hand.

I think this is because MAL and ANN have terrible mod-control and are filled with trolls. MAL specifically calls people who were introduced to this franchise through Fate/Zero, secondaries. Which I guess I qualify. It's a toxic environment that a rational person needs to avoid. It's physically exhausting to read that level of bullshit. On Reddit you get immediately down-voted if you are rude. Here mods easily take care of trolls. I'm really grateful to the mod-team of Animesuki.

Yeah, them (along with some others) were ones that I was referring to. I know there are some readers/watchers who criticizes the show with compelling arguments without making a big deal of it, in which I'm thankful for a calm discussion; so if I said something uncalled for, sorry about that.