F/SN UBW TV - Episode 12 Spoiler Discussion / Poll [FIRST HALF FINALE]

[Kimiko Khan]

concurs. I'm pretty certain he understood it as her taking them so he cant use them not her transferring them to herself.

[monster]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

offering Command Spells =/= offering Saber

at least with the information he had at that point.

Why not? The information he had at the time would tell him that the command spell is what makes him the Master over Saber.

EDIT: Ah, I see.

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

offering Command Spells =/= offering Saber

at least with the information he had at that point.

Ok, now I would like hear on what basis you claim that.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Kimiko Khan

concurs. I'm pretty certain he understood it as her taking them so he cant use them not her transferring them to herself.

Maybe, but after rewatching the scene, the translation uses words or phrases like stripping, handing over, and taking. That seems more like she wants them for herself. And when it comes to something magical, especially something that significant to the war, that possibility should at least be in his mind.

[ShadowSamurai365]

Originally Posted by Kimiko Khan

it's seems you're right that kirei did tell him of it. However caster is painting this as knowledge passed down from kiritsugu and that kiritsugu had trained him as a mage to fight in the next grail war.

If Caster really thinks that Kiritsugu has trained Shirou as a mage to fight in the next grail war, then she's mostly (if not fully) wrong. Kiritsugu wanted Shirou to have a normal life and not want him to deal with anything related to magic/mages (along with not predicting that the next grail war was happening a lot sooner than later), so he was only half serious of teaching him magic (otherwise you wouldn't have Rin or Saber criticizing/asking questions about him being a mage).

[Kimiko Khan]

yes i understand that. I was merely stating that what she says is different and is strange as a result

[Amarantine]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

...but didn't he tell caster go the hell, just few minutes before. Does that means he doesn't willing cooperate with Caster even if would kill Taiga, but doesn't gave problem offer Saber instead?

That was just Shirou being his extremely idealistic self and wanting to save everyone, which in turn forced Caster to be more vicious so as to make him realize completely the kind of situation he was in and that he was in no position to barter or to make or refuse demands. He couldn't bring himself to actively cooperate with Caster as in joining her and assisting her in attaining the Grail, because he believes Caster's modus operandi will inevitably cause the deaths of innocent people, but that doesn't mean he was saying it was okay for her to kill Taiga. He was just trying in his flimsy idealistic way to save everyone, but once Caster made him more clearly aware of the situation he was in, he accepted the compromise of giving up Saber (for now, since he could always try and rescue her later).

You see this kind of thing often in hostage situations in fiction. The person bargaining for the hostage's safety resists demands at first, but as the captor threatens the hostage more clearly, they begin to give and acquiesce to demands they initially refused. Of course, Shirou was lucky that Caster didn't insist on him joining her for real or Taiga's life would be forfeit, who knows what he would have done then.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by HtwoN

I will gladly receive all what you have for me if that happens.

Looking forward to it! Or not, as it probably is.

[ShadowSamurai365]

Originally Posted by Kimiko Khan

yes i understand that. I was merely stating that what she says is different and is strange as a result

The only thing I can think of is that she just made some guesses of this and came up with her own conclusions.(she might've read either Fuji's or Shirou's memories, just a guess and I could be wrong).

[Rising Dragon]

Caster's knowing about what happened to Shirou... that was likely her delving Taiga's memories and putting two and two together with those memories and whatever information she had on the Grail War, either given by the Grail or given by her former Master, who likely knew that the Grail War happened ten years prior.

[Pegasai]

Originally Posted by Amarantine

Shirou's options essentially boiled down to allow Saber to fall under Caster's control or to allow Taiga to die. Obviously, he was always going to choose the former. The situation with Rin was different, since Rin was only threatening Shirou himself and he doesn't care about himself. Caster was threatening the life of another (and a very important another at that) and she made it clear she didn't intend to kill Saber but rather use her, meaning Shirou could still save her later (which is what will indeed end up happening). But if he didn't acquiesce to Caster's demands, Taiga would die for sure. And if one is given a choice between putting somebody in a dangerous but not hopeless situation and letting somebody else die for certain, I don't think choosing the former is that condemnable.

Shirou basically trusted that Caster would follow through on her word that she would control Saber rather than kill her, as well as that she would let go of Taiga once he gave away his Command Spells. And guess what, he was right, because that's what Caster did. Shirou's judgment of character isn't always the best, but here it actually turns out he was right because Caster really isn't as monstrous as Rin and Archer believed her to be (Kirei himself pointed that out in this episode).

I don't see how Shirou worrying about Saber makes his character or actions more contemptible. Yes, he willingly gave her away, but that doesn't mean he enjoyed doing it. It was just the lesser of evils in a very difficult situation.

As for the Command Spell he ended up using, as Rising Dragon said it probably wasn't intentional, but either way it ended up saving Taiga's life because Caster was going to kill her out of spite with the negotiations having fallen through and Saber attacking her. So basically Shirou ended up saving Taiga at the cost of temporarily giving away Saber, and now that he has he's going to go rescue her (and succeed at it). Doesn't seem that bad to me.

Yes, I get that Taiga was a hostage, but at that point, Taiga was already dead. Whether or not Shirou gave up his Command Seals, anyone could see that Taiga was going to die. There was nothing preventing Caster from killing Taiga once Shirou gave up command of Saber. It's incredibly stupid for Shirou to believe that Caster would simply let Taiga (and Rin, who would then be completely defenseless as well) go after he relinquished control over Saber. It's easy to look back in hindsight and say "oh yes, Caster was going to keep her word," but there was absolutely nothing suggesting this at the time. Also, the fact that Caster is "not as monstrous" as Rin and Archer believed her to be is meaningless because Shirou had no way of knowing that at the time. We're talking about a woman who, in Shirou's own words, "viewed humans merely as food" and didn't care how many she killed. Following that logic, everything pointed towards Caster killing them after Saber was handed over.

I didn't say Shirou's actions were condemnable or morally bad. But it's incredibly stupid and infuriatingly annoying to see from an outside perspective. He's not evil, but in that particular situation (and throughout the entire Fate route) he was a complete moron.

And again, yes, he was stuck between a rock and a hard place. But because he ultimately did make that decision to throw Saber away, he had no right to worry about Saber in the way that he did. No matter what his hopes were or his plans for the future were, when it came down to it, Shirou essentially decided that Fujimura's life was worth condemning Saber to being Caster's slave. Shirou's train of thought should have been "This is my fault...I have to fix this & then let Saber gut me a thousand times as reparation" not "oh no, I can't leave Saber with that kind of person - I have to help Saber" - they both lead to the same actions (attempting to save Saber), but the nuances between the thoughts behind them are completely different.

Then again, moronic stuff like this is what makes Shirou who he is.

Originally Posted by GreyZone

offering Command Spells =/= offering Saber

at least with the information he had at that point.

The only use for Command Seals is to control a Servant. In this case, Saber. Caster had already mentioned that she wanted to use Shirou and Saber as a puppet instead of knocking the two of them out of the "competition" for the Holy Grail. It doesn't take a genius to realize that Caster wanted to control Saber in some way.

[whitecloud]

i guess...by this point rin already know everything right? about shirou....that gonna get tall and all...

i guess she should invest getting shirou as a boyfriend if he would end up handsome (and tall)..hahaha

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by Kimiko Khan

yes i understand that. I was merely stating that what she says is different and is strange as a result

What's so strange about that? People make incorrect assumptions given incomplete information all the time. That and I wouldn't put it past Caster to concoct a lie (complete with several grains of truth) in order to rattle Rin's trust in him (which it arguably did, until Shirou responded). One of the two (incorrect assumption or intentional lie), or some combination, is pretty clearly what we're dealing with, given what we know of Shirou.

[The Green One]

To me it seemed more like Rin knew something bad had happened to Shirou in the past to make him like this, but to hear that it was THIS bad and directly the fault of the holy grail war clearly shocked her. Not so sure about the "Kitsuguru trained him to win the fifth war" part but that was my impression on her reaction to his near death experience.

The date scene was cute, important to show their increased bonding together and their intensifying chemistry. Shirou figuring out that Rin saved his life from Lancer's wound was a moving scene too.

[Alithea]

Originally Posted by Toonleap

Good Job UFOTABLE! You remembered the fans.

Spoiler for A surprise for the fans:

They did?

[Wandering Soul]

Caster was talking about moving to a new place once she got Saber fully under her control. Where exactly was she going to go?

[HtwoN]

Originally Posted by Pegasai

...

So what would you do if you were Shirou then?

Let Taiga, your sister/mother figure, die because "there is no way to save her"?

Instead of a "moron", you are a cold blooded bastard...

I would choose to be a moron. At least I could have a chance to keep Taiga alive and save Saber afterward.

[Lhklan]

Originally Posted by Pegasai

Yes, I get that Taiga was a hostage, but at that point, Taiga was already dead. Whether or not Shirou gave up his Command Seals, anyone could see that Taiga was going to die. There was nothing preventing Caster from killing Taiga once Shirou gave up command of Saber. It's incredibly stupid for Shirou to believe that Caster would simply let Taiga (and Rin, who would then be completely defenseless as well) go after he relinquished control over Saber. It's easy to look back in hindsight and say "oh yes, Caster was going to keep her word," but there was absolutely nothing suggesting this at the time. Also, the fact that Caster is "not as monstrous" as Rin and Archer believed her to be is meaningless because Shirou had no way of knowing that at the time. We're talking about a woman who, in Shirou's own words, "viewed humans merely as food" and didn't care how many she killed. Following that logic, everything pointed towards Caster killing them after Saber was handed over.

First, Taiga still shows sign of being alive. Therefor, there is still a chance for her to be alive.

Second, he had no choice. It was either give up Saber or order Saber to attack Caster. The second choice in this case not only makes thing worse - Caster flying away from Saber's reach and then kill Taiga - but goes against his morals.

I didn't say Shirou's actions were condemnable or morally bad. But it's incredibly stupid and infuriatingly annoying to see from an outside perspective. He's not evil, but in that particular situation (and throughout the entire Fate route) he was a complete moron.

And from ANOTHER outside perspective, it wasn't that moronic. It was idealistic. And acceptable.

And again, yes, he was stuck between a rock and a hard place. But because he ultimately did make that decision to throw Saber away, he had no right to worry about Saber in the way that he did. No matter what his hopes were or his plans for the future were, when it came down to it, Shirou essentially decided that Fujimura's life was worth condemning Saber to being Caster's slave. Shirou's train of thought should have been "This is my fault...I have to fix this & then let Saber gut me a thousand times as reparation" not "oh no, I can't leave Saber with that kind of person - I have to help Saber" - they both lead to the same actions (attempting to save Saber), but the nuances between the thoughts behind them are completely different.

*facepalm*

I'm sorry, what? What the hell?

[HtwoN]

Originally Posted by whitecloud

i guess...by this point rin already know everything right? about shirou....that gonna get tall and all...

i guess she should invest getting shirou as a boyfriend if he would end up handsome (and tall)..hahaha

Yeah, based on her weird reactions and decisions from ep 10 to ep 12, she already knows who Archer is.

Archer plays an important part in making her love Shirou after all.

Originally Posted by the one above all

Caster was talking about moving to a new place once she got Saber fully under her control. Where exactly was she going to go?

The church obviously...

[monster]

Originally Posted by HtwoN

Yeah, based on her weird reactions and decisions from ep 10 to ep 12, she already knows who Archer is.

If that's the case, why the question at the preview?