F/SN UBW TV - Episode 10 Spoiler Discussion / Poll

[quigonkenny]

Archer, as the future version of Shirou, isn't going to be fighting bad guys in the far future. Only 20, 30 years from his present, tops. What are people expecting? Phasers and hoverboards? One of those was anticipated to be ubiquitous by now only thirty years ago. How'd that work out? His armor is made from materials that could likely exist today but for lack of having been discovered yet, and his bow is similarly crafted, and Projected each time he wants to use it. His "future gear" really isn't all that futuristic, so why would anyone expect his experiences to be?

And keep in mind as well, the Nasuverse is chock full of "people" who either were around in medieval times or act like it now. There are any number of Mage's Association members who dress in fashion that was old at the turn of the previous century, not even counting what they would wear to something as formal as EMIYA's execution... And I hate to break it to anyone who isn't aware, but there are plenty of places in our world today where people are hanged for any number of reasons, official or otherwise. I don't expect that to change any time soon, especially in the kinds of out-of-the-way places where EMIYA would be operating.

[Kimiko Khan]

the grail summons copies as it does not have the power to fully resurrect souls of such proportion as legendary heroes (only by the ritual being completed and obtaining heavens feel would it be able to do such a thing). the world however has no such limitations( hell it put saber into the grail war before she died when she made a contract with it. hence why she can't go into spirit form) and being a counter guardian does not equate to being unstoppable. yes he essentially did become a one man killing machine which is why he resents being a hero/counter guardian. the only way he could save people was to kill those responsible/involved in the catastrophes he was sent to stop. thus he came to hate himself and his ideals enough to attempt to kill his past self and create a paradox that may or may not release him from what he sees as hell.

[Thryfe]

Originally Posted by Lhklan

I'm pretty sure that being summoned as a CG means that he's being a unstoppable force of nature, not some kind of one man killing machine.

Not to mention that I distinctly remember reading something about the one being summoned being a copy of the original that reside in the ToH, so Archer himself shouldn't even have those memories, merely only know them.

Now, if that was his death, maybe it took place in some out of place country that still practice medieval execution?

If Im remembering this right, Archer operates outside the Throne of Heroes because hes a Counter Guardian, and they work for the world exclusively.

As far as people expecting super future flashbacks from Archer's life goes, FSN takes place in 2004 I believe. We are in 2014, that's ten years and we are nowhere near the tech that people often think the far future will have.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Thryfe

As far as people expecting super future flashbacks from Archer's life goes, FSN takes place in 2004 I believe. We are in 2014, that's ten years and we are nowhere near the tech that people often think the far future will have.

For Archer's flashback, people actually didn't expect something futuristic-fancy. But instead of modern-day buildings or structures that can enforce the fact that he indeed comes from the future, they showed us Archer in a place that resemble the middle ages. Not saying it's wrong, but why not show us that glimpse of the future where he comes from? So yeah, the question is "Why not?"

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

For Archer's flashback, people actually didn't expect something futuristic-fancy. But instead of modern-day buildings or structures that can enforce the fact that he indeed comes from the future, they showed us Archer in a place that resemble the middle ages. Not saying it's wrong, but why not show us that glimpse of the future where he comes from? So yeah, the question is "Why not?"

It is probably because it would spoil the reveal too soon. Most new viewers will be thinking he is from the past because until now they haven't seen a servant from the future.

[Nayrael]

Originally Posted by chaos_alfa

It is probably because it would spoil the reveal too soon. Most new viewers will be thinking he is from the past because until now they haven't seen a servant from the future.

If people did not get it after all the other foreshadowings, they won't get it from this either. More likely, they will start looking at people from Cold War Era or something.

No seriously, if hanging around the forums through the years taught me something, it is that people are horrible at understanding what is being being foreshadows... a person either gets it or not, it is in-between only if the author throws around red herrings as if it were candy.

[blakraven66]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

For Archer's flashback, people actually didn't expect something futuristic-fancy. But instead of modern-day buildings or structures that can enforce the fact that he indeed comes from the future, they showed us Archer in a place that resemble the middle ages. Not saying it's wrong, but why not show us that glimpse of the future where he comes from? So yeah, the question is "Why not?"

The clothes of the people on the first image that flashed by looks modern though. I see an office skirt, a high school uniform or suit and a beanie cap. There's even an oil drum at the side.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

^ Thanks for the screenshot. But then why only from afar that they look modern? When it zoomed in and cut to other scene, it looks more like the people from middle ages (especially the armored soldiers with spears in their hands).

[Rising Dragon]

The medieval-looking stuff is probably Magus-associated--you know how those morons are when it comes to modernization.

[Tenzen12]

If they looks like medieval knights, if they live in medieval looking castles and if they use medieval looking garrote.... I think it's save assume they are from middle-age. Magicians aren't THAT behind afterall (most of them wear suits at least).

It's probably from one of Archer missions as counter guardian that happened further in past.

PS: I was wondering for while, considering EMYA job how did he got involved with throne of heroes and holly grail?

[Rising Dragon]

Counter Guardians--hell, Heroic Spirits in general--don't manifest in human form, though. They manifest as natural phenomenons. Think natural disasters like earthquakes, floods, tornadoes, etc--THAT'S how Counter Guardians operate when the Counter Force fails.

As for how he got involved in the Holy Grail--well, he's a Counter Guardian. All Counter Guardians are Heroic Spirits, anonymous in life or not, and thus their souls have ascended to the Throne of Heroes.

[Kimiko Khan]

Key word being in general, but it does happen. also its the reverse all heroic spirits are counter guardians however not all counter guardians are heroic spirits. Are you referring to them as natural disasters in terms of natural disaster in respect to sheer destructive power and damage? cause very few match that. those that do are the like of hercules and gilgamesh. most others could be described in that manner but only in terms of the impact they had on the events and people around them. most were simply highly charismatic leaders that shaped the world around them. I don't understand what you mean by the counter force failing. are you referring to less subtle methods failing prior to the deployment of a counter guardian?

[Dengar]

It's just a dream, it's really nothing to be hung up over.

[Lhklan]

Originally Posted by Kimiko Khan

Key word being in general, but it does happen. also its the reverse all heroic spirits are counter guardians however not all counter guardians are heroic spirits. Are you referring to them as natural disasters in terms of natural disaster in respect to sheer destructive power and damage? cause very few match that. those that do are the like of hercules and gilgamesh. most others could be described in that manner but only in terms of the impact they had on the events and people around them. most were simply highly charismatic leaders that shaped the world around them. I don't understand what you mean by the counter force failing. are you referring to less subtle methods failing prior to the deployment of a counter guardian?

Eh, no. All Counter Guardians are Heroic Spirits, but not all Heroic Spirits are Counter Guardians.

As for the natural disaster, that's the form that they supposedly take whenever CG are deployed.

Counter Force failing that meaning that the subtle methods - nudging, hinting, gut feeling of the people involved - failed. At that point there's only one thing left: Wipe out everything in the are. Which means CG deployment.

Edit: Here's a quote about CG that I found:

Originally Posted by http://knkdictionary.pbworks.com/w/page/76613381/Fate%20Side%20Material

Heroic Spirit [Definition]

The Heroes who achieved great deeds and were worshiped after death became Heroic Spirits.

They were the greatest existences amongst the forces that safeguarded humanity. In terms of classification, they were not Wrath, but closer to Faeries.

Faeries were materialized forces using the imagination of humans as framework, while Heroic Spirits were woven purely from the ideals of humans through and through.

Amongst Heroic Spirits, there were ones who existed in legends, ones who actually lived, and ones who were never observed. Those who were rarely worshiped were included in the classification of "Counter Guardians", and were utilized as an unconscious Counter Force.

In the Heroic Spirits in this story, only Archer functioned as a Counter Guardian.

Other Heroic Spirits were aligned with the planet rather than humanity, due to their high divinity. Counter Guardians were not within this category.

[JustThisOne]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

The medieval-looking stuff is probably Magus-associated--you know how those morons are when it comes to modernization.

Keep in mind that Counter Guardians or Heroic Spirits can be summoned in any time period regardless of their original one. Also that they can be summoned to entirely different universes from their original, EMIYA is actually a case for that.

[Rising Dragon]

And again: being summoned into the past to operate as a Counter Guardian wouldn't actually give them a body to kill. Counter Guardians act as natural disasters. They can't hang a tornado, they can't stab an earthquake to death.

Also, Rin specifically says "so that's how he became a Heroic Spirit." A.k.a. it was EMIYA's execution for his being framed for war, when Alaya finally claimed his soul for the Throne of Heroes.

[bhl88]

It's like Saber took over the position of Master and is leaving Kiritsugu (Archer) behind the scenes.

I guess unlike Heroic Spirits, who undergo a format.... Counter Guardians remember everything they've gone through (or it's really the Magus Association and they suck at modernization).

[Nayrael]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

And again: being summoned into the past to operate as a Counter Guardian wouldn't actually give them a body to kill. Counter Guardians act as natural disasters. They can't hang a tornado, they can't stab an earthquake to death.

And the Holy Grail can make him manifest as a person. I am not sure if the Holy Grail is the only thing in the entire multi-verse that can do something like this.

Also, where was it confirmed that they are natural disasters again?

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

And again: being summoned into the past to operate as a Counter Guardian wouldn't actually give them a body to kill. Counter Guardians act as natural disasters. They can't hang a tornado, they can't stab an earthquake to death.

Also, Rin specifically says "so that's how he became a Heroic Spirit." A.k.a. it was EMIYA's execution for his being framed for war, when Alaya finally claimed his soul for the Throne of Heroes.

And again, "natural disaster" is more of parable describing of their lack of free will and indiscriminate acts than actual description of their manifestation.

[Geburah]

Guys please remember one thing : Emiya offered himself to the world in exchange of power AFTER HIS DEATH. So basically thats the place where his mortal life ended.

About the medieval part could be due to : being executed on god forsaken land or have something related with the church/mage asociation.

Counter Guardians are HAX and unless we talk about very OP creatures VERY FEW mortals could stand, much less aprehend alive and then execute a CG

Magus get dreams about the life or their servants and viceversa, and thats was very clear when Tohsaka commented bitterly about his death that he was a fool