Log Horizon - Episode 18 Discussion / Poll

[Gundamx]

There is no realy point to have low level "hero NPC". Naratively it wouldn't make any sense. One can become hero by either being powerfull or by accomplishing great deeds. Rudy is neither.
Hero class noob is oximoron.

I guess it more like low level hero npc
( example -> follow quest)

Originally Posted by DQueenie13

If that's a reference to something, I don't quite get it.

that what happened when someone open many threads at same time
-> happened to me a lot -> thanks good we can edit our post here....
(Nvis was talking about gundam builder)

[watisit]

Originally Posted by Gundamx

I guess it more like low level hero npc
( example -> follow quest)

E.g. Let me join your party for a period and you get a free mid-level sorcerer anytime.

Almost like a summoner's pet, but pets don't roll for loot.

[Sheba]

NPCs are people, guys. Even some of the characters in this episode acknowledged it. We need to leave the "it's still a game" mindset for a little while.

[Gundamx]

Originally Posted by Sheba

NPCs are people, guys. Even some of the characters in this episode acknowledged it. We need to leave the "it's still a game" mindset for a little while.

if you done something for 10000+time it's become auto reaction even if you don't want to

->repair/vendor...etc NPC become human but now one find out because
-> you go to repair npc -> open repair window screen -> repair button -> leave without talking with each other
(if NPC talk than they used same greeting word)

so even if next day they have human player controlling them no one will notice .
don't to mention player still have there game screen, level and skill...etc.
so they are more like good A.I instead of human .

for example if you play game -> next day you can talk with every character with dynamic reaction = what will you think?
A.I update or they become human?

as long as player have game UI screen = it's game.


not even Shiro treat them as human but the problem from his pov they act same as human
if player get used to mistreat them with real pov gameplay
-> they will do same in real/original world without even feeling wrong about it
(if you get used to something you will do it automatically )

[Raviel]

Originally Posted by Sheba

NPCs are people, guys. Even some of the characters in this episode acknowledged it. We need to leave the "it's still a game" mindset for a little while.

That's easier said than done, as someone who's played video games for quite some time I feel the same way some of the veteran players in the series do. It's incredibly hard to break habits that you've been practicing for years; that is, while my brain can rationally tell itself that the NPCs in the series are human, there's still a nagging voice at the back of my head that says they're still just a bunch of code with set dialogue.

For example, part of my brain still finds Krusty's interactions with Lenessia a bit awkward because part of me still sees her as "just" an NPC.

[J4n1]

Landers are virtually indistinguishable from players (without checking status screen), that should be more than enough to make you treat them as people.

[Gundamx]

Originally Posted by J4n1

Landers are virtually indistinguishable from players (without checking status screen), that should be more than enough to make you treat them as people.

same as any NPC in any online game -> you can't tell different between player and NPC without UI
yet do you see anyone talking to repair NPC?
+
actually only some hero NPC used unique look,
but most used same characters look as players

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Gundamx

same as any NPC in any online game -> you can't tell different between player and NPC without UI
yet do you see anyone talking to repair NPC?
+
actually only some hero NPC used unique look,
but most used same characters look as players

You're still using game logic. But in the world they're stuck in now "not talking to the NPC" is not an option. If you want to get your stuff fixed at the repair NPC, you have to actually talk to the NPC first.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Raviel

That's easier said than done, as someone who's played video games for quite some time I feel the same way some of the veteran players in the series do. It's incredibly hard to break habits that you've been practicing for years; that is, while my brain can rationally tell itself that the NPCs in the series are human, there's still a nagging voice at the back of my head that says they're still just a bunch of code with set dialogue.

For example, part of my brain still finds Krusty's interactions with Lenessia a bit awkward because part of me still sees her as "just" an NPC.

I'm going to have to disagree, at least on a personal level.

I don't know how old you are, but I've likely been playing video games longer than most people here have been alive, and certainly have MO and MMO cred since the dawn of the genre, as an avid Ultima Online player for years, and moved on to various major online games through out the decades. I've done it all, from settling down with a exquisitely expensive house in UO, leading one of the top 100 PvP guild in battle as an officer in GW seasons after seasons, endlessly item scourging in Dia2, to leading raids as a raid officer in WoW, been there and done that.
If you deem video game cred makes the difference, it'd be hard to find someone with longer history than me.

That being said, there is a vast gap between crude representation on the screen normally requiring enhancement with your own imagination, and an actual real physical existence.
Sure, "that dwarven bread vendor walking around in front of the Ironforge bank" is clearly a NPC, and we've all gotten used to treating one such.

But if I suddenly and inexplicably find myself in the REAL Ironforge, far cry from the crude low polygon representation we're used to seeing on the screen, and a real, breathing, dwarven woman walked up to sell bread, which you then interact naturally like any human being, any and all notion of that woman being an artificial robotic construct would immediately leave my mind.

If Elder Tales was a VR game, where the gap between digital representation and reality was narrower, it would be a different story. But it's not.

[J4n1]

Originally Posted by Gundamx

same as any NPC in any online game -> you can't tell different between player and NPC without UI
yet do you see anyone talking to repair NPC?
+
actually only some hero NPC used unique look,
but most used same characters look as players

Wrong.
In most online games, npc's are not indistinguishable from players, they are usually static, have predetermined dialogue, if they have any, they move predictably and almost always require use of UI/menu screens to interact with.

In Log Horizon, the difference used to be easily seen, then the change happened, and now landers are indistinguishable from adventurers (see: Rundelhaus), unless you actively decide to check.

[Swordstriker21]

I think the story medium (anime/LN) is also contributing a bit to his reluctance to accept ET as reality and PotL as "real" people. If, say, this was a live action show and the said dwarven bread vendor were played by a real life actress then I think it would be easier for some to swallow.

[Sheba]

I dunno, but as a veteran tabletop rpg players and someone who played RO for over 10 years, I find myself easily immersed. As a consequence, other than the food problem in the first weeks, I think I can adapt myself to Theldessia likely as a scholar or any of those intellectual subjobs.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Sheba

I dunno, but as a veteran tabletop rpg players and someone who played RO for over 10 years, I find myself easily immersed. As a consequence, other than the food problem in the first weeks, I think I can adapt myself to Theldessia likely as a scholar or any of those intellectual subjobs.

TRPG.
Talk about ratio of representation to imagination skewed to 1:10!
Fantasizing is a requirement to participating in the first place.

Alas, while I find myself an imaginative person, I prefer a synergy of crude representation and fill the holes with imagination.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by aohige

TRPG.
Talk about ratio of representation to imagination skewed to 1:10!
Fantasizing is a requirement to participating in the first place.

Well, that's how I managed to harness my inner chuuni.

[GundamFan]

Originally Posted by Gundamx

I guess it more like low level hero npc
( example -> follow quest)

Which would make Rudy not much different from a regular Lander Sorcerer since he falls into there normal range level and who knows they may have only used the hero npc related terms with the high level quest characters as game lore to explain why they were that way.

Originally Posted by Gundamx

if you done something for 10000+time it's become auto reaction even if you don't want to

->repair/vendor...etc NPC become human but now one find out because
-> you go to repair npc -> open repair window screen -> repair button -> leave without talking with each other
(if NPC talk than they used same greeting word)

so even if next day they have human player controlling them no one will notice .
don't to mention player still have there game screen, level and skill...etc.
so they are more like good A.I instead of human .

for example if you play game -> next day you can talk with every character with dynamic reaction = what will you think?
A.I update or they become human?

as long as player have game UI screen = it's game.

Your scenario is not even remotely similar to there situation it's based on the assumption that as long as there routines continue that people won't notice any changes to the npc the problem is though everything changed they went from staring at a computer screen to a full immersive world. The general shock and players tendency to stay in denial about there situation is the main reason it took so long for them to realize it.

not even Shiro treat them as human but the problem from his pov they act same as human
if player get used to mistreat them with real pov gameplay
-> they will do same in real/original world without even feeling wrong about it
(if you get used to something you will do it automatically )

No it was a combination of realizing they were sentient and also fully embracing that this is the world there living for the foreseeable so it couldn't be run like a game.

[Gundamx]

1-NPC look same as player without Game interface unless you talk to or click on them.
(for me I hide players name unless I click on them while showing NPC name all time to make it easier to know who the hell is NPC )

2- you still used UI to buy / sell = whatever NPC greet you = you automatically think of it as A.I greeting
+
you don't remove money from you wallet and hand it to NPC vendor
(that scene was anime only -> how the hell can Shiro carry 5 million gold?)
you used UI system to buy/sell

+ if it really change from game days than people will notice that from day 1
(you go to NPC and try to buy something -> eerrr where the heck is buy button ?)

+
Also, I am not saying they will treat them as NPC forever even if they are actually real human.
but when you used to treat someone as NPC for dozen years (because he is NPC) and next day he become human with same name, look, job and personality
= you will aromatically treat him as such


think of it like lying kid about from wolf story
someone who always lie about wolf -> everyone start to ignore him -> even if real wolf show up -> no one will believe him -> basically they will keep ignoring him no mater what he say
(even if he stop telling a lie -> it will take time to trust him again)

simple answer = think of it like habit -> you ignore NPC talk everyday
((Fact -> most players ignore NPC talk))
-> you will ignore him when he become human

and if you didn't notice -> most people who talk to villagers = newbie
(most high level don't think there is point in talk to villager A unless it to gather info like normal game)


though that might change in future with them acting more human than player themselves

[GundamFan]

Originally Posted by Gundamx

1-NPC look same as player without Game interface unless you talk to or click on them.
(for me I hide players name unless I click on them while showing NPC name all time to make it easier to know who the hell is NPC )

2- you still used UI to buy / sell = whatever NPC greet you = you automatically think of it as A.I greeting
+
you don't remove money from you wallet and hand it to NPC vendor
(that scene was anime only -> how the hell can Shiro carry 5 million gold?)
you used UI system to buy/sell

+ if it really change from game days than people will notice that from day 1
(you go to NPC and try to buy something -> eerrr where the heck is buy button ?)

+
Also, I am not saying they will treat them as NPC forever even if they are actually real human.
but when you used to treat someone as NPC for dozen years (because he is NPC) and next day he become human with same name, look, job and personality
= you will aromatically treat him as such


think of it like lying kid about from wolf story
someone who always lie about wolf -> everyone start to ignore him -> even if real wolf show up -> no one will believe him -> basically they will keep ignoring him no mater what he say
(even if he stop telling a lie -> it will take time to trust him again)

simple answer = think of it like habit -> you ignore NPC talk everyday
((Fact -> most players ignore NPC talk))
-> you will ignore him when he become human

and if you didn't notice -> most people who talk to villagers = newbie
(most high level don't think there is point in talk to villager A unless it to gather info like normal game)


though that might change in future with them acting more human than player themselves

I get that people into habits and routines so they might or might not notice a minor change and it might take awhile notice. The problem is there hasn't been a minor change there basic reality has been fundamentally altered in a major way since they've gone from a normal MMO to the Matrix world of warcraft edition and pretty much no one thought to check and see if the human shaped vending machines had gotten any smarter. It's actually kind of disconcerting that more of those attending the round table conference hadn't figured it out since checking to see about changes with Landers would give some clues about other changes in the world like monsters A.I.

[J4n1]

Originally Posted by Gundamx

1-NPC look same as player without Game interface unless you talk to or click on them.
(for me I hide players name unless I click on them while showing NPC name all time to make it easier to know who the hell is NPC )

2- you still used UI to buy / sell = whatever NPC greet you = you automatically think of it as A.I greeting
+
you don't remove money from you wallet and hand it to NPC vendor
(that scene was anime only -> how the hell can Shiro carry 5 million gold?)
you used UI system to buy/sell

+ if it really change from game days than people will notice that from day 1
(you go to NPC and try to buy something -> eerrr where the heck is buy button ?)

+
Also, I am not saying they will treat them as NPC forever even if they are actually real human.
but when you used to treat someone as NPC for dozen years (because he is NPC) and next day he become human with same name, look, job and personality
= you will aromatically treat him as such


think of it like lying kid about from wolf story
someone who always lie about wolf -> everyone start to ignore him -> even if real wolf show up -> no one will believe him -> basically they will keep ignoring him no mater what he say
(even if he stop telling a lie -> it will take time to trust him again)

simple answer = think of it like habit -> you ignore NPC talk everyday
((Fact -> most players ignore NPC talk))
-> you will ignore him when he become human

and if you didn't notice -> most people who talk to villagers = newbie
(most high level don't think there is point in talk to villager A unless it to gather info like normal game)


though that might change in future with them acting more human than player themselves

Problem with 1, is that the landers act like just normal people when interacted with, and anyone who actualy interacts with them, would notice it.
Problem with 2 is, they are not using UI anymore to interact with the landers.

Many might have thought of them as just npc's at first, but by the time of novel 5, there is no excuse for that except a severe case of stupid.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by J4n1

Problem with 1, is that the landers act like just normal people when interacted with, and anyone who actualy interacts with them, would notice it.
Problem with 2 is, they are not using UI anymore to interact with the landers.

Many might have thought of them as just npc's at first, but by the time of novel 5, there is no excuse for that except a severe case of stupid.

And yet, the only ones on the round table who apparently noticed by themselves were the members of Log Horizon, and it was less due to their behavior and more due to them suddenly having back stories.
Other guilds at the round table were told, and didn't really think about it or have never heard about it at all.
That being said: You need to consider that there was a bigger expansion pack, and that A.I research improves from year to year. The new Landers could have simply been a new A.I, and considering how it is suddenly a VR game, the game probably even got a new engine.

Or

Spoiler for [Another one of my outrageous theories - featuring my theory about Log Horizon's 'VR':

I got this idea for a while now, but if VR isn't that advanced in the Log Horizon universe then maybe they aren't really in the game at all?

They could for example be digitized brainwaves that were written into the code, so the real Shiroe and Co continue to walk in the real world while Everyone in Elder tales is literally the same as the Landers - a part of the Game.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

And yet, the only ones on the round table who apparently noticed by themselves were the members of Log Horizon, and it was less due to their behavior and more due to them suddenly having back stories.
Other guilds at the round table were told, and didn't really think about it or have never heard about it at all.

It wasn't just Shiroe, he was just the first to bring it to the table. West Wind Brigade was probably the first guild to realize Landers are people rather than NPC's, given that they have their own Lander maid maintaining their guild house.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

That being said: You need to consider that there was a bigger expansion pack, and that A.I research improves from year to year. The new Landers could have simply been a new A.I, and considering how it is suddenly a VR game, the game probably even got a new engine.

Or

Spoiler for [Another one of my outrageous theories - featuring my theory about Log Horizon's 'VR':

I got this idea for a while now, but if VR isn't that advanced in the Log Horizon universe then maybe they aren't really in the game at all?

They could for example be digitized brainwaves that were written into the code, so the real Shiroe and Co continue to walk in the real world while Everyone in Elder tales is literally the same as the Landers - a part of the Game.

Games don't suddenly go from keyboard and mouse to full-blown hyper-realistic VR at the release of an expansion pack. The ludicrously high software upgrade aside, it being VR would demand an entirely different kind of hardware first.