Log Horizon - Episode 17 Discussion / Poll

[Swordstriker21]

Originally Posted by DQueenie13

Never tried Accel World, but I've heard it's better than SAO.

There's nothing wrong with liking both writers, but the problem lies in people expecting all works of a certain genre to be like one writer's. Also, the demographic is different, so people are drawing parallels where there shouldn't be.

It has slightly better plot flow since there is little to no time skipping to say the least. But people just really don't like the MC (Haru). I can deal but it seems some people come to the conclusion that anyone who reads AC are starry eyed otaku lamer fan boys who desperately need a self insert main...

As for the comparisons, it's really nothing new. They did it for SAO (.Hack comparisons flying everywhere). Now it's SAO and LH. It's frustrating that some people are just that narrow minded and pay so little heed to details.

Originally Posted by DQueenie13

Some people discuss it in a well-thought-out and serious way (and have patience to understand the plot more) which I am fine with, but others just use it as a reason to dislike the show in general, saying "Log Horizon is too unrealistic!! They should all be trying to find a way out like they did in SAO! There's not enough drama in LH!" while completely ignoring the fact that in SAO, the players were told how to escape from the get-go; they just had to figure out how not to die.

I've been finding myself apologizing to some of my friends at work because of this They knew I was a SAO fan cuz I've been sneaking reading it on my station whenever my supervisor wasn't looking. Somehow I've become the outlet for SAO fanboy hate cuz of them getting ticked off at "those" posts But seriously though, can't we all just compromise? I mean reading flame wars between the hardcore fans of both camps bothers me since I read and enjoy them both. Guess that's just how life is huh

[GundamFan]

Originally Posted by HamHamJ

I think getting the adventurers to help is a lot easier than anyone is considering. Lenessia just needs to get a picket sign and paint a giant yellow exclamation mark on it, then stand around holding it and years of conditioned response will get her an army soon enough.

Most probably realize that Lenessia will have an easy time getting help she's a princess begging to be saved heck a bunch of them in Akiba have been doing that since the original Mario days.

Originally Posted by DQueenie13

Some people discuss it in a well-thought-out and serious way (and have patience to understand the plot more) which I am fine with, but others just use it as a reason to dislike the show in general, saying "Log Horizon is too unrealistic!! They should all be trying to find a way out like they did in SAO! There's not enough drama in LH!" while completely ignoring the fact that in SAO, the players were told how to escape from the get-go; they just had to figure out how not to die.

DQueenie I'd say the problem is bigger then than that the people SAO were not only told how to get out even without that they at least knew where they were at. It's still debatable whether this some sort VR world or an alternate universe so they don't even have a clue what they're looking for.

The Log Horizon went in a different direction then SAO but I'd say is just as realistic in some ways more so.

[Krono]

Originally Posted by Swordstriker21

I'm probably posting this just to vent my frustration so don't mind me... It's just that the number of people saying/posting "Action! Action! More action! When will there be ACTION?!!! hurr durr" in several forums I frequent sides animesuki is making my head hurt........ Sorry.

That may be a function of the first few episodes having a bunch of combat. Gives the people coming at it cold the impression that it's an action series, then it goes into a dozen episodes of primarily talking. The director's done his best to cram bits of action in wherever he could, but that only goes so far.

Originally Posted by GundamFan

DQueenie I'd say the problem is bigger then than that the people SAO were not only told how to get out even without that they at least knew where they were at. It's still debatable whether this some sort VR world or an alternate universe so they don't even have a clue what they're looking for.

The Log Horizon went in a different direction then SAO but I'd say is just as realistic in some ways more so.

The problem is more than just that, but this isn't really the thread for it.

[FRS]

Originally Posted by Swordstriker21

I'm probably posting this just to vent my frustration so don't mind me... It's just that the number of people saying/posting "Action! Action! More action! When will there be ACTION?!!! hurr durr" in several forums I frequent sides animesuki is making my head hurt........ Sorry.

Lots of people just want action fest for their entertainement, so yea Log Horizon is not for them.

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by DQueenie13

People complaining that nobody's looking for a way out also is really annoying.

Perhaps, but I see this criticism as valid, and I enjoy Log Horizon. Sometimes the characters just seem too settled and accepting of being stuck in the game world. Both my daughter and I commented on the fact that there is little discussion about how to escape, which you would think would be on the minds of the Adventurers all the time.

[J4n1]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

Perhaps, but I see this criticism as valid, and I enjoy Log Horizon. Sometimes the characters just seem too settled and accepting of being stuck in the game world. Both my daughter and I commented on the fact that there is little discussion about how to escape, which you would think would be on the minds of the Adventurers all the time.

And how, in their situation, would you start searching for a way out?

[Krono]

Originally Posted by J4n1

And how, in their situation, would you start searching for a way out?

They know this happened when the new expansion went live. Lacking any other information, the logical thing to do would be to search out new content in hopes it would provide some clues. Step 1 of which being the time honored "Talk to everyone." Which apparently no one, not even Shiroe bothered to do as that would have told them really, really quickly that NPCs were no longer simple NPCs. Which in turn opens up the ability to ask the former NPCs what they know about what happened. Most of them wouldn't know, but they'd be able to point you in the general direction of people that would know, and would lead to Regun and his revelations in fairly short order. At which point they can investigate the spell said to originally have brought Adventurers into that world in the first place.

So even if new content doesn't provide answers, they should be able to get answers that way.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

Perhaps, but I see this criticism as valid, and I enjoy Log Horizon. Sometimes the characters just seem too settled and accepting of being stuck in the game world. Both my daughter and I commented on the fact that there is little discussion about how to escape, which you would think would be on the minds of the Adventurers all the time.

To be fair, it's an ongoing story and there are more immediate matters that needs to be adressed. The lack of law enforcement as shown in the first episodes was one of those things, it's kind of solved in Akiba as far as we have seen. Then the presence of nearly godlike Adventures who suddenly stopped acting like automatons (from the NPCs' POV) and formed a government have changed the political landscape. And there are a lot more problems to come.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Krono

They know this happened when the new expansion went live. Lacking any other information, the logical thing to do would be to search out new content in hopes it would provide some clues. Step 1 of which being the time honored "Talk to everyone." Which apparently no one, not even Shiroe bothered to do as that would have told them really, really quickly that NPCs were no longer simple NPCs. Which in turn opens up the ability to ask the former NPCs what they know about what happened. Most of them wouldn't know, but they'd be able to point you in the general direction of people that would know, and would lead to Regun and his revelations in fairly short order. At which point they can investigate the spell said to originally have brought Adventurers into that world in the first place.

So even if new content doesn't provide answers, they should be able to get answers that way.

that works only if the Landers have clue to what is happening. Sure talking to Landers will point to you new content but new content doesn't necessarily means way to get home.

Also re-watch ep1, when the Adventure suddenly landed in ET. Some people are questioning the Landers...including picking them and shaking and screaming in their face.

The kind of investigation you are talking about needs a organization systematic investigation. There are approximately 1million Landers in Yamato. You need thousands to question the landers (along with the right questions) and thousands to sife through and organize the info collected.

Also regarding the spell that bought the Adventures to ET world in the first place.
1. nobody knows who is responsible for the spell
2. the person/organization that is responsible could be in another server.
3. No lander currently alive was there back when the first adventure (beta testers) appear.

[Tenzen12]

I think most logical approach would be assume that investigation how to go back happaned of screen, but because it's focus of show it didn't get any screen time.

Also Shiro and others investigate world mechanic. Which might give them some clues later.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Krono

They know this happened when the new expansion went live. Lacking any other information, the logical thing to do would be to search out new content in hopes it would provide some clues. Step 1 of which being the time honored "Talk to everyone." Which apparently no one, not even Shiroe bothered to do as that would have told them really, really quickly that NPCs were no longer simple NPCs. Which in turn opens up the ability to ask the former NPCs what they know about what happened. Most of them wouldn't know, but they'd be able to point you in the general direction of people that would know, and would lead to Regun and his revelations in fairly short order. At which point they can investigate the spell said to originally have brought Adventurers into that world in the first place.

So even if new content doesn't provide answers, they should be able to get answers that way.

Exploring the new content? Check. That's what the combat guilds are leveling up for.
Talking to everyone? Check. Happened the first episode, but none of the NPC's knew what the hell they were talking about, and more recently with Regun.

[SeijiSensei]

I appreciate the demands of trying to escape the Hobbesian world that the Adventurers faced. I appreciate the difficulties that stand in the way of understanding what happened. Nevertheless, you'd think the question of how to escape would bubble up to the surface every now and then, but it is rarely if ever discussed. Why hasn't the Round Table devoted some resources to investigating the Apocalypse and how it might be reversed? Aren't there informants?

One reason might be that the Adventurers actually do enjoy their lives in the game world and have little interest, at least for the moment, in returning to their normal hum-drum lives. The real-life players behind Shiroe and Crusty probably command far more recognition and respect in the game than in their actual lives.

As Tenzen12 says, maybe these discussions take place but are not shown. I just find it unrealistic that the characters never discuss escaping given what I know of human nature.

[J4n1]

Basic survival takes priority.
Food, water, clothes, some basic comforts like baths and underwear.
Council is researching the world, Shiroe is finding out information from npc's, books, and just observations, adventurers are trying to map out fairy rings so they can travel further safely.

Everything they can reasonably do, they are doing, they simply are not obsessing about it to a detriment of everything else.

[Krono]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

that works only if the Landers have clue to what is happening. Sure talking to Landers will point to you new content but new content doesn't necessarily means way to get home.

It can point you to new content. It can also point you to the truths about the world that Shiroe has literally stumbled over when he had to seek shelter in a farmers house, Landers showed up to buy Crescent Moon's food, and Regun sought him out.

Also re-watch ep1, when the Adventure suddenly landed in ET. Some people are questioning the Landers...including picking them and shaking and screaming in their face.

I'll rephrase, "Questioned by people that aren't panicking, and grabbing them, and shaking them while screaming in their faces demanding the GM."

Aka, people talking to them like normal people, asking questions like "So what do you know about us Adventurers?", "How long have we been around?", "What did we act like before?", "Do you know of any person or place that might know more about us than you do?"

You know, actual investigative questions, not panicked, incomprehensible screaming that makes them fear for their life.

The kind of investigation you are talking about needs a organization systematic investigation. There are approximately 1million Landers in Yamato. You need thousands to question the landers (along with the right questions) and thousands to sife through and organize the info collected.

Not in the least. All it requires is one person to start asking questions that will point them to more knowledgeable people like Regun, then seeking out those knowledgeable people. Shiroe's doing it entirely by accident.

Also regarding the spell that bought the Adventures to ET world in the first place.
1. nobody knows who is responsible for the spell
2. the person/organization that is responsible could be in another server.
3. No lander currently alive was there back when the first adventure (beta testers) appear.

1. Not very important. The important thing is that knowing about it gives them a possible explanation, and a goal for investigation. Both outside the system, and in new content.
2. So? Are they supposed to go "Well, the person responsible for it might be in another server, so we're not going to bother to investigate at all and see if that's the case."?
3. So? No Lander from that time being alive does not mean no information from that time being available. Indeed, Regun just gave them a bunch of information about that time.

Originally Posted by Keroko

Exploring the new content? Check. That's what the combat guilds are leveling up for.

The combat guilds are leveling up to make sure they have the bigger e-peen, or leveling up just on general principle. If they're doing it to prepare to for new content, it hasn't been mentioned. Otherwise the only thing mentioned they're likely to be involved in is the remapping of the Fairy Rings.

Talking to everyone? Check. Happened the first episode, but none of the NPC's knew what the hell they were talking about, and more recently with Regun.

See above. Screaming at people in a panic does not constitute either seeking out new content, or reasoned investigation.

They did talk with Regun, and proceeded to ignore everything except the realization that death may result in memory loss. The revelations that they were decades or centuries old, that time flowed faster here, and that adjusted for temporal differences the Adventurers first appeared when the open beta for the game started? Completely ignored. Not worth sharing with the others and getting their thoughts on the matter.

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

I think most logical approach would be assume that investigation how to go back happaned of screen, but because it's focus of show it didn't get any screen time.

Also Shiro and others investigate world mechanic. Which might give them some clues later.

It all happening off screen without ever being mentioned is a problem.

First from the standpoint that it makes it look like the Adventurers have no concerns about the real world, no desire to get back home to return to those not transported, no concern for those not transported, and generally be only really interested in settling down and building their new life, in their awesome new world.

Second, if the fruits of such never mentioned investigation do come up, they'll appear to be a retcon or a deus ex machina. "Oh yeah, we didn't mention it, but we were searching for answers all along and now we've found some."

Originally Posted by J4n1

Basic survival takes priority.
Food, water, clothes, some basic comforts like baths and underwear.
Council is researching the world, Shiroe is finding out information from npc's, books, and just observations, adventurers are trying to map out fairy rings so they can travel further safely.

Everything they can reasonably do, they are doing, they simply are not obsessing about it to a detriment of everything else.

Food, water, and clothing were never concerns for them. The only reason it was a concern for anyone was veterans being more interested in PKing newbs than in trying to figure out what the heck happened.

By all appearances, Shiroe and the Council's activities are primarily aimed at better settling in in their new world, with figuring out what happened and how to get back being a distinctively secondary concern for Shiroe. Otherwise he would have been actively looking for people like Regun, and would have been the one to seek Regun out.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Krono

It can point you to new content. It can also point you to the truths about the world that Shiroe has literally stumbled over when he had to seek shelter in a farmers house

this was about a week after being transport. I seriously doubt your brain(or mine) would be working better then Shiroe only a week after being sent into the World of Warcraft.

Not in the least. All it requires is one person to start asking questions that will point them to more knowledgeable people like Regun, then seeking out those knowledgeable people. Shiroe's doing it entirely by accident.

you are treating these peoples as NPC. if you ask a peasant or baker in the 1700s about who is most knowledgeable about Mathematics, they will probably give you a blank stare and think you are crazy.

3. So? No Lander from that time being alive does not mean no information from that time being available. Indeed, Regun just gave them a bunch of information about that time.

that means reading through a tremdous amount of books. Meaning you a thousands of researcher reading those books and making notes.

They did talk with Regun, and proceeded to ignore everything except the realization that death may result in memory loss. The revelations that they were decades or centuries old, that time flowed faster here, and that adjusted for temporal differences the Adventurers first appeared when the open beta for the game started? Completely ignored. Not worth sharing with the others and getting their thoughts on the matter.



It all happening off screen without ever being mentioned is a problem.

First from the standpoint that it makes it look like the Adventurers have no concerns about the real world, no desire to get back home to return to those not transported, no concern for those not transported, and generally be only really interested in settling down and building their new life, in their awesome new world.

Second, if the fruits of such never mentioned investigation do come up, they'll appear to be a retcon or a deus ex machina. "Oh yeah, we didn't mention it, but we were searching for answers all along and now we've found some."

the anime is base on a series of Light Novels that is not close to being finish. Some of the stuff you are asking are being done in the novels. The anime with only 20mins is limited by what it can show you.

if you really want to continue the discussion further i think you need to step into the novel thread because we would be touching on spoiler info.

[tsunade666]

Originally Posted by Krono

Second, if the fruits of such never mentioned investigation do come up, they'll appear to be a retcon or a deus ex machina. "Oh yeah, we didn't mention it, but we were searching for answers all along and now we've found some."

Actually the Anime is doing a good job in explaining the content than the novel. The anime tried to give hints to beginners or people who barely had any idea in MMORPG theme and concepts. Its a lot better than the novel where some terms and ideas are outright needed of knowledge of games and some are even missing from the novel main story because it will be found in novel side story or manga side story.

The anime is doing good and this debate has been done again and again for such a long time and also explanation are done again and again.

Situation wise. Round Table council is just beginning and they are threading on a thin rope here. Its easy for the adventurers to overthrow them in power because Adventurers are FREE. The council is doing their best to meet up the expectation of the adventurers and also the landers.

The meeting with the landers leaders is just a bonus that they can't pass so they agree.

Shiroe meeting Re-gun is also a bonus that he didn't let slip on his hands.

The current goal is the make a good relationship with the landers. The talk with Re-gun is a bonus.

Finding ways to get home is inevitable but not their top priority.

Their top priority is have a stable community for easy survival.

And they need FOOD, WATER AND SHELTER. that is basic human needs.

And don't give an excuse they they don't need it because they can live without it.

You are treating it as a game and not as a reality.

They are living beings so they need food to live. They will die if they don't eat and will be revived to cathedral. But if you make an excuse that they will revive in the cathedral then your no better than the landers that are trying to label the adventurers are monsters and had a duty to protect the land.

Water is the same for food.

Shelter and Clothing are self explanatory for survival and protection too.

If look at the early episodes and watch the previews.

Shiroe always say that this is our reality

now in the later episode.

Shiroe always said to always look into 30 seconds into the future.

[Marcus H.]

I really don't think that the Homesteading the Noosphere patch had "secrets of the world" added into the game.

Maybe it was ninja-patched?

[Wild Goose]

In all fairness: if I were a high-level player, stuck in Elder Tale with all my loot, I'd be very seriously tempted to just stay there.

In real life, I am a boring person with very few friends, who is shat upon by his superiors (until I sucessfully transferred out), who has to go to work feeling that everyone is against him.

In Warframe, my MMO of choice, I am a skilled one-man army (Rhino strong! Soma Master Race!) and a key member of my clan. I am a badass. I am a rock: waves of my enemies crash against my Iron Skin, but I do not break, because I am Rhino.

I've missed a lot of MMO movements and things (was part of the MegaTen Online IMAGINE beta in 2006, then quit), but had I been playing as long as Shiroe and Krusty, had I been a senior player, I would be very tempted to stay in a world that offers me greater scope and agency that the dreary reality of my life.

[Swordstriker21]

You can pretty much see parallels between LH and any typical "stranded in a deserted island movie/TV show". First comes general confusion. Then we have the "blame game". Then we have emo moments all around. People start making things out and getting their bearings and problems form lack basic necessities arise. They start being organized, maybe break up into a faction or two, have small (or not so small) altercations and just after all of that will they be able to remember the goal of getting out of the damn island.

Then comes those pesky cannibals...

But seriously guys it's not like they have a pressing reason to get the heck out of ET like a time limit before the world self destructs or something. And some people would actually rather stay than go back IRL for various reasons. The panic and confusion ended after the council was set in place and people are now far too busy w/ organizing themselves and getting a feel of the world to worry themselves over getting out. The fact that they're stuck in game like world also contributes.

[GundamFan]

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

In all fairness: if I were a high-level player, stuck in Elder Tale with all my loot, I'd be very seriously tempted to just stay there.

In real life, I am a boring person with very few friends, who is shat upon by his superiors (until I sucessfully transferred out), who has to go to work feeling that everyone is against him.

In Warframe, my MMO of choice, I am a skilled one-man army (Rhino strong! Soma Master Race!) and a key member of my clan. I am a badass. I am a rock: waves of my enemies crash against my Iron Skin, but I do not break, because I am Rhino.

I've missed a lot of MMO movements and things (was part of the MegaTen Online IMAGINE beta in 2006, then quit), but had I been playing as long as Shiroe and Krusty, had I been a senior player, I would be very tempted to stay in a world that offers me greater scope and agency that the dreary reality of my life.

Forgot tempted sign me up for it life in the real world I'm an accountant who spends all day in a cubicle. Let's see look another credit statement fight a goblin horde numbering in thousands yeah I'd take the goblins.

Although really any thoughts about getting home did have to be put on hold first they need get things stabilized and operating from a social stand point and also it's only been a couple of months since the catastrophe.