The Libya Crisis (military intervention started on march 19, 2011)

[delirium]

Originally Posted by Solace

Support them!? The US is completely stretched thin despite the absolutely massive amount of money spent that is their defense budget. Crunch the numbers. America spends more money on defense than the next TWENTY COUNTRIES COMBINED. And for what? Is the world truly any better now than when the US became controlled by its own military industrial complex? It isn't even politics by other means anymore, modern warfare is pure business.

Yes, I know we have a gigantic defense budget. I think the money being spent there could improve the lives of Americans drastically. We've taken the role Britain abandoned after their fucking empire collapsed. I think it's ridiculous! I don't want a strong military. I want to live in a country like Canada or Britain, or even better? Ireland, despite it's economic troubles. But guess what? I live here, in the USA, for right now, and I can't really put up with more USA bashing bullshit. 10 years of it was more than enough for me.

Do you get that? Do you know how tiring it is? We didn't start this fucking affair though, and that's what I want everybody to know. We didn't start this. Obama was avoiding it, foolishly, instead of trying to go a more peaceful route, which isn't in our nature as a country anymore. It makes me so fucking sad, but I will not let my country be blamed for something we didn't start.

Originally Posted by Solace

We don't engage Iran when they massacre civilians. We don't rush to Bahrain when they peaceably protest and get killed. We were so damn ambiguous about Egypt we may as well have been talking about any number countries. We're fighting a pointless battle in Afghanistan. Iraq isn't much better off than it was when we started that war. And now, now of all times we're getting involved with Libya?

Hey! I don't want the USA to get involved in Libya. I think the Middle East should deal with their own bullshit, but it is as you say a musical chairs game of business and government. Look, we would have had to get involved even if we didn't want to. Not doing so would have destroyed our relationship with Europe. But rest assured, I am not very happy about this! Another thing that should be brought up is the fact that the concept of Imperialism is outdated. Yet, that doesn't fucking make me feel better when people are babbling senselessly about the USA being imperialist.

Originally Posted by Solace

This is nothing more than a coalition of powers deciding to take advantage of an opportunistic situation to remove someone they don't like so they can put someone they do in power. It has nothing to do with the people, or democracy, or anything like that.

Um, yup? Europe's oil supply is threatened and they had the added justification of Gaddafi butchering his people. I'm not saying their motivation to invade Libya is pure and good, but Gaddafi was begging for it for fuck's sake.

Originally Posted by Solace

The entire world is falling apart because the elite of this world simply do not give a shit about anything except their precious power and money, no matter how fragile and fleeting it is. The entire species is on the verge of yet another freaking World War because even in the most "prosperous" of nations the populations are tired of giving more and more and seeing less and less, while everything they've worked so hard for over generations is pissed away by systems that have been perverted into a musical chairs game of business and government.

I'm rephrasing my initial response to the above quote. It's obnoxious that you are stating these facts without any ideas. It's entirely negative and that is frustrating to me. I'm active in anti-war, environmental, and civil rights protests. I'd protest Westboro Baptist Church if I could, but they're hardly ever in my area. The fact that I cannot do anything to change the way the world is frustrates me. Hearing it over and over again only compounds that frustration.

[Ithekro]

Some days I'd rather we were imperialist. At least we would know what we are doing and expanding again. This nation was founded to expand (Manifest Destiny and all that) and I've come to the conclusion that one of the reasons for the degrading of society is that America is not expanding. I would perfer exploration to expansion via space or oceans, but if we can't have that, start taking territories from places that seem to not be able to run their own lives without some kind of overpower. Looking at the aftermath of the end of Imperialism and Colonialism...some of those former colonies cannot run a country to save their own people, much less play nicely with their neighbors. The Middle East seems like it can't run its own affairs for more than a decade without some sort of major internal or external problem. Sort of like they need to be under an Empire again like they have been for much of the last 2,000 or more years.

On the other hand, I might just be tired and looked too much into the history of the regions rather than the actual needs of the people.

[flying ^]

finally...

T baggers and uber left finally found something in common

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politic...unusual-allies

[delirium]

Originally Posted by flying ^

finally...

T baggers and uber left finally found something in common

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politic...unusual-allies

As they should! I voted for Obama because I trusted his commitment to withdrawing from Iraq! And now look at us! The war in Afghanistan has picked up again, and Iraq is sorta just confusing at the moment. We fought the war and are apparently done with it, but actually aren't. Well, I expected better from Obama. It wouldn't have been hard to do! They would have probably given him the go ahead anyways. It's frustrating.

[Tom Bombadil]

Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky

A US F-15E crashed near Benghasi. The crew is said to be unharmed.

Now I wonder what would happen if aircrafts go down somewhere over hostile areas. Would ground troops be sent to rescue those pilots?

So will the Chinese embassy be bombed this time or is this plane not stealthy enough? /end unfunny joke on conspiracy theory.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by flying ^

finally...

T baggers and uber left finally found something in common

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politic...unusual-allies

I expect that rebel forces saving a recently downed F-15 pilot will help change many Americans stance on the issue. Before many Americans saw a nebulous revolution, between two groups most Americans really couldn't care about (not to make light of the situation). But now, we have a group that actually went out of their way to save an American pilot after their plane had crashed (while seemingly being bombarded by Gaddafi’s forces) . All of a sudden, those once nebulous rebels fighting for things most Americans have no idea about have gained a positive reputation in the States by helping one of their own. This, of course, will not drastically shift sentiments one way or another, but it is a definite PR opportunity just waiting to be utilized.

[ganbaru]

Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil

So will the Chinese embassy be bombed this time or is this plane not stealthy enough? /end unfunny joke on conspiracy theory.

A comparaison betweem Libya and Kosovo might not be that bad...

[Flinch]

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

This is straight up Imperialism, and that's something we in the USA cannot afford.

You'd be surprised how much more money is poured into entitlement programs than the military. Take a wee bit from them, and you've got all the money you'll need. Unfortunately, lobbyist groups would throw a massive bitch-fit if anything like that were to happen, so America keeps throwing money down a toilet (in relation to those who abuse the system, not those who actually NEED it... though it seems more people abuse it nowadays)

Originally Posted by Solafighter

Novel AAA..

Spoiler for photo:

Technically, Sola, it's only AA. That's not an artillery piece... though, it would be hilarious if it was. (Sorry to ruin your fun, just irked me a bit)

Originally Posted by delirium

As they should! I voted for Obama because I trusted his commitment to withdrawing from Iraq! And now look at us! The war in Afghanistan has picked up again, and Iraq is sorta just confusing at the moment. We fought the war and are apparently done with it, but actually aren't. Well, I expected better from Obama. It wouldn't have been hard to do! They would have probably given him the go ahead anyways. It's frustrating.

We were never going to pull out of Iraq and Afghanistan completely. That much should have been obvious the moment we went in.

[delirium]

Originally Posted by Flinch

We were never going to pull out of Iraq and Afghanistan completely. That much should have been obvious the moment we went in.

Of course, Flinch. Couldn't I hope that he was going to make good on drastically reducing troop presence in those countries though?

note: I wish the names of the people who gave you pos/neg rep would show up alongside the comment in your control panel. It's pretty fucking obnoxious that someone can give me some half-ass reason along the lines of, "you're delusional". Might as well just disable it I suppose, can't really expect people to use it fairly and with decent reasoning behind it.

[kaizerknight01]

All that can say is that the US and it allies is stuck in the position of damn if do you damn if you don't, each option has consequences.

Just hope after this Libyan's have a stable and peaceful from of government, which is a long shot

On the US in my opinion they have a real danger of over extending themselves. couple with 2 conflict the economic woes, financial issues, then the issue of Japan (Earthquake, Tsunami)

This is one complicated mess

[Flinch]

All it did was destabilize the country, a tactical blunder to save face on the political stage. Yet, another reason why I hate politicians, but that's going to get off topic. Nations should be more honest with their intentions.

"We're really just here for some oil, and our buddies need us, so we'll help them out, since Britain really helped us out. Oh yeah, Ghadaffi, we'll shoot at him under the pretense of humanitarian means."

This isn't Gothic Serpent.

[delirium]

Originally Posted by Flinch

All it did was destabilize the country, a tactical blunder to save face on the political stage. Yet, another reason why I hate politicians, but that's going to get off topic. Nations should be more honest with their intentions.

Shouldn't they? God, I wish we lived in that kind of world.

[kaizerknight01]

While i don't like politicians, I loathe ruthless over staying dictators like ghadaffi and another example is the leader of North Korea

[Flinch]

The problem is kinda ironic. Dictators get things done. No other form of government is that efficient. They generally start out great (Hitler), but things tend to change, giving the entire governmental system a bad name.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by Flinch

The problem is kinda ironic. Dictators get things done. No other form of government is that efficient. They generally start out great (Hitler), but things tend to change, giving the entire governmental system a bad name.

That's the problem.

And you're not really making your case by using Hitler as an example: Hitler was planning to do what he did the entire time.

[Flinch]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

That's the problem.

And you're not really making your case by using Hitler as an example: Hitler was planning to do what he did the entire time.

Guy got Man of the Year, and that's what I'm basing that on, so don't rage.

[kaizerknight01]

Originally Posted by Flinch

The problem is kinda ironic. Dictators get things done. No other form of government is that efficient. They generally start out great (Hitler), but things tend to change, giving the entire governmental system a bad name.

I really feel differently about that ,to me Hitler and Stalin ( other dictators and the Militaristic faction of Japan) are power hungry scoundrels, that garbed power, took life and liberty of their people, killed other people for the idiotic sake of being the superior race or non sense crap they spew. they ruined other countries and their country as well.

WW II is a dark page in human history it showed Man inhumanity to each other ...... it greatly disgust me

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by Flinch

Guy got Man of the Year, and that's what I'm basing that on, so don't rage.

He was popular, charismatic, and brought Germany out of the cesspit it was in post-WWI. I'm not raging.

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by kaizerknight01

I really feel differently about that ,to me Hitler and Stalin ( other dictators and the Militaristic faction of Japan) are power hungry scoundrels, that garbed power, took life and liberty of their people, killed other people for the idiotic sake of being the superior race or non sense crap they spew. they ruined other countries and their country as well.

WW II is a dark page in human history it showed Man inhumanity to each other ...... it greatly disgust me

True, but what's he's trying to say is that a dictator has the most power to actually change the country he lives in, as opposed to other government systems. There have been many rulers in the past with absolute power that used it for the good of their country; look at ancient Greek or Chinese history for examples. The problem is that if the ruler is a bad person/leader he can significantly screw up his country as well. Qaddafi appears to fall under the latter category.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Flinch

You'd be surprised how much more money is poured into entitlement programs than the military.

We were never going to pull out of Iraq and Afghanistan completely. That much should have been obvious the moment we went in.

If you're including all the various forms of corporate and wealthy welfare (tax cuts, subsidies, tax abatement, depreciation, etc) into "entitlement programs" we're on the same page.