F/SN UBW TV - Episode 15 Spoiler Discussion / Poll

[Lorhand]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Not as heart wrenching as I thought it would be, but Ufotable made Illya's death more poignant than it was in the VN. Not only thanks to the changes in her death scene, but also the flashbacks that came before that helped make us realize why she turned out the way she did.

Berserker making Gil shit his pants was a nice touch, though in the end, he didn't even manage to put as much as a scratch on him.

She's still alive. She just lost consciousness. The heart jokes will still come next episode, or else ufotable has rewritten a lot.

Also, homunculi are, as Gil said it last week, extensions of nature. In theory, a homunculus can live forever. If there wasn't a flaw.

[novalysis]

Is Acht also a Hommunculi? This episode seems to imply that there are no pure Einzbern humans left - the entire clan is made of out of Hommunculi. And if Illya loses, the clan will conclude that it is impossible to attain Third Magic by the approach the Einzberns have taken for a millennium and will give up.

[Lorhand]

Originally Posted by novalysis

Is Acht also a Hommunculi? This episode seems to imply that there are no pure Einzbern humans left - the entire clan is made of out of Hommunculi. And if Illya loses, the clan will conclude that it is impossible to attain Third Magic by the approach the Einzberns have taken for a millennium and will give up.

That sounds more like manipulating Ilya. Giving up doesn't sound like something they would do. I imagine they would just try to cheat even more than they already did.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Kanon

This episode implied he's a homunculus himself though. Was it ever stated he's human?

It's not stated either way, but he's the head of the Einzberns and has been for over 200 years using life prolonging techniques/magic. If he's not considered a "real Einzbern", then there hasn't been any for many centuries.

Plus, his eyes aren't red like all the other homunculi.

[Levani]

Um, I know this is off-topic but does anyone know if there is a text ripped from FSN Fate Route? Because I want to read it alongside the Fate Ipad release but I am unable to read Kanji.

[GDB]

I don't think it's 100% pure text, but I've seen some weird let's play site linked on Beast's Lair a few times that's a combination of screen cap images and printed text. Maybe give that a shot (and hopefully someone else knows what I'm talking about because I have no idea what the site is).

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Levani

Um, I know this is off-topic but does anyone know if there is a text ripped from FSN Fate Route? Because I want to read it alongside the Fate Ipad release but I am unable to read Kanji.

http://lparchive.org/Fatestay-night/

[Jaden]

Oh yea, he could actually be human if he predates the grail wars. That'd make his role kinda vague then, when it's the homunculi that inherit all the magecraft in the family.

[Klashikari]

I must be among the minority, but this episode just didn't do anything to me at all.
Perhaps it is because I just don't care about Iliya to begin with, but I felt her flashbacks were literally hamfisted to the point I don't think it was a good idea to shove most of them in a single block of 10 minutes in the middle of that specific battle.

Personally, I think Illiya's plight would have moved me a little more if her flashback were actually spread more in the previous episodes (be it the first or second cour), along with a few more original scenes with her. Then we have glimpses of them again in this episode, along with the rescue from wolves scene which worked nicely by itself.
As far as it goes, she was literally absent most of the time and her death was just delivered in a sudden fashion with a "ho, we ought to add her backstory!" part.

Sure, she was never developped in great length in the original UBW route, but it is exactly because of the VN format and fate route being mandatory that it isn't really required here.

But an anime medium doesn't work this way, and people shouldn't use any other adaptation prior this one to have a sense of continuity for a character.
F/Z doesn't work either because Illya was pretty much absent there as well. At best, it was a bit painful because of that shadow (or Iri's corrupted form?).

[Haak]

I see what you mean. Actually, whilst I consider Ilya's interlude to be one of the best scenes in the visual novel, I also thought it was pretty random in terms of its relation to the UBW route story. I consider it a little less random in the anime version thanks to the added original scenes they've given Ilya (as well as giving the whole story in general more of a multiple POV structure), but it does still give a bit of a sudden "side story of the day" vibe to it.

Personally, I think Ilya's backstory would've worked better being moved to Heaven's Feel where she's more relevant but I can imagine the controversy that could cause among the fandom so it doesn't surprise me that Ufotable stuck to a loyal adaptation (And as far as I'm aware of, there's no guarantee that the Heaven's Feel adaptation will have the time to fit enough of its own story).

And I don't think there's anything more they could've done to make Ilya's backstory more relevant to the UBW route story anyway. Having more of her backstory spread out beforehand wouldn't have worked because she herself is never relevant after her initial introduction so these big reveals into her background would've just felt even more random then.

As for the adaptation itself, I liked the added scenes they gave to her backstory but I think they could've given more exposition to make Ilya's situation easier to understand for anime only viewers. Like how the Einzberg "family" works and its background and like how Berserker let those wolves attack him because exerting any sort of effort gave Ilya unbearable pain (similar to how Fate Zero Berserker gave Kamiya unbearable pain upon exertion but for different reasons).

I also thought the interlude was more heartbreaking in the VN but that might be because my mind filled in the blanks to make it more dramatic. Like in the winter forrest scene, I always had the impression that Ilya was almost always suffering excruciating pain due to being constantly attacked by monsters and needing Berserker to protect her. And because of that I felt her relationship with Berserker was a little more complex at that point and got the impression that Ilya outwardly hated Berserker for the pain he'd give whilst inwardly acknowledging how much she depended on him at the same time.

[bigdeath]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUNo7URfsQ4

For anyone depressed by the episode, heres a Carnival Phantasm about Beserker going shopping and indecently winning the grail war.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

But an anime medium doesn't work this way, and people shouldn't use any other adaptation prior this one to have a sense of continuity for a character.
F/Z doesn't work either because Illya was pretty much absent there as well. At best, it was a bit painful because of that shadow (or Iri's corrupted form?).

Carnival Phantasm I think is where that shadow is from. Fate Stay Night is a really complicated story to translate to an anime form since so much of the story is scatter between the different routes and supplementary material.

[ImperialKnight]

Did Berserker really stood a chance against Gil? I mean I know Gil said that had Illya not been there he may have been able to go all out but it kinda sucks that we see Hercules completely on the defensive.

Though in that sense what else could Hercules have done? The second he even got close to Gil the Chains of Heaven appeared and would've slagged him one way or the other.

[Nayrael]

Gil no doubt meant that Berserker would have stood a chance of just surviving few seconds more ;P

[justinstrife]

Originally Posted by ImperialKnight

Did Berserker really stood a chance against Gil? I mean I know Gil said that had Illya not been there he may have been able to go all out but it kinda sucks that we see Hercules completely on the defensive.

Though in that sense what else could Hercules have done? The second he even got close to Gil the Chains of Heaven appeared and would've slagged him one way or the other.

He never really did.

[Rising Dragon]

I think what most people tend to forget, thanks to instances like the UBW movie's depiction of Shirou vs. Gilgamesh, and Fate/zero's depiction of Lancelot utterly humiliating Gilgamesh through his attempts at killing him with it, is that the Gate of Babylon and its contents makes Gilgamesh incredibly overpowered. Using the weapons stored within as projectiles usually lets him rip apart his opponents in seconds. The sheer amount of weaponry inside allows him to get past God Hand's pesky death resistance effects, and Enkidu allows him to completely negate what a Divine opponent can accomplish.

The only way to eliminate such an advantage is with something else that's utterly OP, like Avalon's protections, or cancel out its capabilities with something like itself, such as Unlimited Blade Works.

[Reckoner]

I think it's plausible that Gil might have had to use Ea if Berserker didn't have to be a meat shield for Illya. Regardless Gil would win. If Caliburn could take multiple lives in one strike, surely Ea could do more.

[Levani]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

I must be among the minority, but this episode just didn't do anything to me at all.
Perhaps it is because I just don't care about Iliya to begin with, but I felt her flashbacks were literally hamfisted to the point I don't think it was a good idea to shove most of them in a single block of 10 minutes in the middle of that specific battle.

Personally, I think Illiya's plight would have moved me a little more if her flashback were actually spread more in the previous episodes (be it the first or second cour), along with a few more original scenes with her. Then we have glimpses of them again in this episode, along with the rescue from wolves scene which worked nicely by itself.
As far as it goes, she was literally absent most of the time and her death was just delivered in a sudden fashion with a "ho, we ought to add her backstory!" part.

Sure, she was never developped in great length in the original UBW route, but it is exactly because of the VN format and fate route being mandatory that it isn't really required here.

But an anime medium doesn't work this way, and people shouldn't use any other adaptation prior this one to have a sense of continuity for a character.
F/Z doesn't work either because Illya was pretty much absent there as well. At best, it was a bit painful because of that shadow (or Iri's corrupted form?).

It didn't work for you and I can respect that.

But I think what we got in this episode is miles, miles better than if Ufotable had Ilya just simply die.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by The One Above God

Well, I guess Illya didn't see that coming now, did she?

You are a horrible person.

[Rev Okkin]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

I must be among the minority, but this episode just didn't do anything to me at all.
Perhaps it is because I just don't care about Iliya to begin with, but I felt her flashbacks were literally hamfisted to the point I don't think it was a good idea to shove most of them in a single block of 10 minutes in the middle of that specific battle.

Personally, I think Illiya's plight would have moved me a little more if her flashback were actually spread more in the previous episodes (be it the first or second cour), along with a few more original scenes with her. Then we have glimpses of them again in this episode, along with the rescue from wolves scene which worked nicely by itself.
As far as it goes, she was literally absent most of the time and her death was just delivered in a sudden fashion with a "ho, we ought to add her backstory!" part.

Sure, she was never developped in great length in the original UBW route, but it is exactly because of the VN format and fate route being mandatory that it isn't really required here.

But an anime medium doesn't work this way, and people shouldn't use any other adaptation prior this one to have a sense of continuity for a character.
F/Z doesn't work either because Illya was pretty much absent there as well. At best, it was a bit painful because of that shadow (or Iri's corrupted form?).

F/Z works even with Ilya not being present all the time. She was a young girl, having fun like a child should with her father. Then HGW came about then her mother and father disappeared. Considering Kiritsugu gave a bit of an exposition that the Einzberns won't let him in, it already gave a bit of foreshadowing as to what would happen to Ilya.
Flashforward, the next time we see of Ilya is one with stunted growth and one that goes as far as to threaten killing Shirou. Audience asks, "What happened to cute little Ilya?" Ep 3 happens and she shows interest in Shirou. She is also shown to have control over the strong Berserker, has a unsettling mix of a child like body and attitude and actions of a cold blooded magus. She has her mother's bird abilities as well. Ep 4, we are given an unsettling shot of her childlike frame which is accompanied with her intentions against Kiritsugu and Shirou. Then we are left to think about that. Ep 12 has a small sequence of her summoning Berserker to be beside her as she sleeps. Ep 14, we are given more of her docile side now that she has the upper hand in fighting power and homeground as well as seeing that Shirou is not as pragmatic as Kiritsugu. She is also capable of listening to other people and asking nicely.
This ep, we are given everything. It's a good buildup, not a lot of places to cut into to give more into Ilya considering the focus of the route and spreading the flashback into other episodes is unfitting with the focus of each ep. Everything could be done better, no doubt, but as far as we have been given, it's been pretty damn above average so far.

[MrTerrorist]

Damm, that was cruel in the way Gil killed Illya.
I was surprise to see a cameo of Iri.
And Berserker's determination to fight Gil despite the odds was noteworthy.