[Manga] Chapter 507 Discussion

[morbosfist]

He doesn't have Samehada to do that, though. He probably can't heal without it.

[poolfan]

Kisame didn't bite his tongue to suicide. He did it to regain consciousness. It wasn't suicide in the last panel. It Looks more like a last stand to me (although he's going to die anyway)

[morbosfist]

Biting your tongue clean off is suicide, no matter how you slice it. All that matters is how long it will take him to go out.

[Kakashi]

He may not be dead, but he will be next chapter. Unless he's saved by Madara/Zetsu like Sasuke was.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Kisame did bite his tongue to escape from the mind reading genjutsu. Sharp pain can get someone out of a genjutsu, remember for example Sasuke stabbing his leg with a kunai when he was paralized by Orochimaru, or remember Kurenai biting her lips when she was in Itachi's genjutsu, or remember Shikamaru breaking his own finger to get out of Tayuya's flute sound genjutsu.
After he broke out of the mind reading genjutsu he used his physical force to crush the wood.

It was interesting to see that when Madara meets Kisame he seems to have his old body outline: his long hair and no mask. Although his body seems to be covered with bandages, that may be a hint. Was all this 5-10 years before he fought with Yondaime hokage? I don't know what's the exact timeline here.

Before Kisame broke out of the mind reading it seems that Aoba did see Madara in Kisame's mind, he seemed to be shocked at that moment when Madara has shown himself. But after that Aoba says that he couldn't get any information. So now which is it? Did he see the face of Madara, can he confirm if it is the real Madara?

[MikeyGrey]

Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto

-While I would love to dispute the overall "hax-powers" of the Sharingan, I did remeber something rather curious that "may" answer this little question without involving eye-gouging. Does anyone else recall who Danzou said were the 4 people that could claim to be able to "tame and control" bijuu? He said those people were Killer Bee, Yagura, Hashirama (Shodaime Hokage) and Uchiha Madara. Now, Madara we know to be ancient and very proficient. So even if Yagura could command his bijuu, Madara could wrestle control away from him because its a battle between 2 people capable of controling the beast. And ergo, if Yagura was weaker than Madara then the control ultimately goes to the winner of the struggle. Hence, Madara gains command of both the sanbi and Yagura himself.

genjutsu works by controlling the flow of the chakra. that is why when sasuke attempted to use genjutsu on killerbee it didnt work out so well. a perfect host can disrupt the flow repeatedly by inserting/extracting the bijuu chakra so controlling them is not feasible regardless of the strength of the attacker (or sharingan). i believe that 4th mizukage never acquired the ability to control 3 tails. rather, madara was controlling both the beast & kage separately and made it appear as if the beast was under full control by the kage. a potent enough sharingan user could do that. danzo did say that "maybe" 4th controlled his.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Did he see the face of Madara, can he confirm if it is the real Madara?

has he even seen a picture of the real madara to compare this new face to? has any living ninja for that matter? maybe kabuto can tell thx to his tech but otherwise kyuubi might be the only 1. even kyuubi prolly only saw a mask & felt the control.

[solidguy]

Kisame's not dead. Gai has to go 8 gates in the next three chapters or i swear i'll gastrate you kishi . Why else did he give kisame as an opponent to gai in the first place? So he could show the power of the celestial gates, and i aint talking about the 7th. I want to see this legendary power that is on par with the awesomeness of a kage (measured by how close he is to awesome compared to Raikage ).

[QUOTE=MikeyGrey;3212328]genjutsu works by controlling the flow of the chakra. that is why when sasuke attempted to use genjutsu on killerbee it didnt work out so well. a perfect host can disrupt the flow repeatedly by inserting/extracting the bijuu chakra so controlling them is not feasible regardless of the strength of the attacker (or sharingan). i believe that 4th mizukage never acquired the ability to control 3 tails. rather, madara was controlling both the beast & kage separately and made it appear as if the beast was under full control by the kage. a potent enough sharingan user could do that. danzo did say that "maybe" 4th controlled his.
QUOTE]

Didnt jiraiya also teach naruto another way to release yourself from a genjutsu? You know when he said something about sending a large pulse of chakra through your body to disrupt the genjutsu. Now naruto, with out the kyubi's chakra, managed to break free from itachi's (THE genjutsu god) genjutsu. Kisame, who apparently has a shitload of chakra, cant even disrupt the guy in the shades shitty mind technique.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by MikeyGrey

has he even seen a picture of the real madara to compare this new face to? has any living ninja for that matter? maybe kabuto can tell thx to his tech but otherwise kyuubi might be the only 1. even kyuubi prolly only saw a mask & felt the control.

There's the big statue of Madara in the "valley of the end". Also they should learn about historical figures at the ninja academy history lessons
Well it's up to Kishi if he wants that in the plot right now, but i think it's more probable that Madara's secret will not be revealed yet.

I'm sure Kisame will not go down without doing good service for Madara, either he manages to send information somehow or his death will trigger a seal that Madara can teleport to.

We don't know if the scroll really contains information, or maybe it contains a seal to which Madara can teleport to, or something like that. In that case if the scroll is opened they'll get a nasty surprise. It might even be that Gai and killerbee will be used as measuring sticks for EMS-Sasuke, if Kishi wants the Naruto vs Sasuke fight right now. But i guess Naruto's injury is a hint that the fight will be later. It would be logical to show the horrors of war before they fight. Also now that Kisame is about to die Kishi should show that Madara is able to win this war despite akatsuki is over.

BTW Madara talks again about his "new world", now it seems that Kishi will have to show us that "new world" of Madara, so i guess at one point in the story it will seem to us that Madara won and he casts his super-genjutsu and we can finally see how will his world look, just to confirm that Madara is an evil guy and not someone who wants to create a better world. Since right now it seems that the kages and other ninja opposing Madara's plan are more egoistic than the good guys, i mean in the new world they would be unemployed since there would be no wars and violence, so there would be no reason for ninjas to exist

[MikeyGrey]

Originally Posted by solidguy

Didnt jiraiya also teach naruto another way to release yourself from a genjutsu? You know when he said something about sending a large pulse of chakra through your body to disrupt the genjutsu. Now naruto, with out the kyubi's chakra, managed to break free from itachi's (THE genjutsu god) genjutsu. Kisame, who apparently has a shitload of chakra, cant even disrupt the guy in the shades shitty mind technique.

but naruto couldnt break out if it... sakura & chiyo had to free him. like jaraiya said, it doesnt always work. and maybe that shades dude specializes in that tech as is the case with most of konoha nins (they excel at chosen few techs but suck overall).

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

There's the big statue of Madara in the "valley of the end". Also they should learn about historical figures at the ninja academy history lessons

statue doesnt count lol; cant tell the face just from that. and it doesnt seem like madara is mentioned at all in their history class. remember what that anbu dude said way back when hashirama zombie used wood tech... something around the lines of him building the whole village with it (cant remember exact words)

[Gin]

Originally Posted by solidguy

Kisame's not dead. Gai has to go 8 gates in the next three chapters or i swear i'll gastrate you kishi . Why else did he give kisame as an opponent to gai in the first place? So he could show the power of the celestial gates, and i aint talking about the 7th. I want to see this legendary power that is on par with the awesomeness of a kage (measured by how close he is to awesome compared to Raikage ).

Why would Gai need to open the 8th gate? He defeated Kisame with one punch.

[solidguy]

....except he just stated that he wasnt an expert at the jutsu, Ino's dad was.

[solidguy]

Originally Posted by Gin

Why would Gai need to open the 8th gate? He defeated Kisame with one punch.

Not so much as that he'll need to but rather we want to se it (except the gai fans of course). It was one of those things that made me interested in watching naruto i the first place when lee brang it up.

[Gin]

Originally Posted by james0246

LOL, did anyone else notice that Kisame's left hand isn't connected to his body on the last page? .

I noticed his right hand is missing, but the left one looks like its connected to his arm.

[solidguy]

AND naurto did break out of it by himself.

[Cub-Sama]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Biting your tongue clean off is suicide, no matter how you slice it. All that matters is how long it will take him to go out.

Biting off your tongue isn't suicide, it'll make the person bleed a bit sure but unless they choke on their own tongue they won't die and the amount of blood wont be enough to bleed to death, in fact even that amount of blood that came out of Kisame's tongue was grossly exaggerated.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

It was interesting to see that when Madara meets Kisame he seems to have his old body outline: his long hair and no mask. Although his body seems to be covered with bandages, that may be a hint. Was all this 5-10 years before he fought with Yondaime hokage? I don't know what's the exact timeline here.

Kisame is only 32, so the version of him we see in the flashback is, at most, 10-14 years younger than the current Kisame (so anywhere from 18-22). So, the Madara shown is, obviously, a Madara from either just after the Minato battle, or, more likely, a few years after.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Before Kisame broke out of the mind reading it seems that Aoba did see Madara in Kisame's mind, he seemed to be shocked at that moment when Madara has shown himself. But after that Aoba says that he couldn't get any information. So now which is it? Did he see the face of Madara, can he confirm if it is the real Madara?

Aoba was reacting to how Kisame was forcibly throwing Aoba out of his mind by biting his tongue.

Originally Posted by Cub-Sama

Biting off your tongue isn't suicide, it'll make the person bleed a bit sure but unless they choke on their own tongue they won't die and the amount of blood wont be enough to bleed to death, in fact even that amount of blood that came out of Kisame's tongue was grossly exaggerated.

In real life, biting off your tongue will not kill you (unless you choke on the tongue bit, or lie on your back and drown in your blood). But, in fictional worlds, biting off your tongue always leads to death...

Originally Posted by Gin

I noticed his right hand is missing, but the left one looks like its connected to his arm.

This was actually a mistake in the initial version of the chapter (and El Frenchie explained the problem here).

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by james0246

Kisame is only 32, so the version of him we see in the flashback is, at most, 10-14 years younger than the current Kisame (so anywhere from 18-22). So, the Madara shown is, obviously, a Madara from either just after the Minato battle, or, more likely, a few years after.

My only problem with this is his hair and mask. First he has short hair and a mask when he fights the 4th hokage, then he has long hair and no mask while controlling the mizukage, but now he is back to his short hair and a new mask.
It would seem more logical that once he began using his mask and having short hair he kept that until now, just changed his mask once in the past for some unknown reason.

Also when Madara met Itachi, which was about 5-6 years after the death of the 4th hokage, he still had his old mask on. So between the birth of Naruto and the meeting with Itachi, where in both occasions he had short hair and a mask, he did grow long hair and dropped his mask? That's strange.
Maybe there is more than one Madara? Or one soul using multiple bodies?

[james0246]

^Actually, it is unknown if Madara is wearing a mask here or not, and even if he is why would he worry about a mask whilst in Kiri? It is one thing to wear a mask in Konoha/near Konoha, and it is something else entirely to wear a mask several countries and a sea/channel away...

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by james0246

^Actually, it is unknown if Madara is wearing a mask here or not, and even if he is why would he worry about a mask whilst in Kiri? It is one thing to wear a mask in Konoha/near Konoha, and it is something else entirely to wear a mask several countries and a sea/channel away...

Kisame didn't recognize him in his mask (as Tobi), didn't even have a clue. True that he has a new mask, but it's like the old except the lines on it go in a different way, so Kisame would have at least suspected if he had ever seen Madara in his masks and with short hair. Also Madara removed the mask to show Kisame his face, so he didn't have a mask in Kisame's flashback. Also if he had a mask on in the flashback why would Kishi bother to not show us Madara with the mask.

If he is telling to people that he is Madara then why doesn't he use his Madara-body that he showed to Kisame? If he used that body (long hair, no mask, probably Madara's face) to gain Kisame's trust then why doesn't he use it all the time when he wants people to know his identity? I hope Kishi will not mess up this so bad as the Lost finale was messed up

[DeDe]

Kisame bit his tongue off to break free from the mind probe of Aoba. But he also did it to kill himself so the Konoha ninja couldn't attempt to probe him again. What was his flashback about? It was about his loyalty and seeking a place to fit in. "There are times when information is more important than lives." Kisame showed his loyalty to Madara and wouldn't let the Konoha ninja find out about Akatsuki and Madara. He sacrificed his life to protect that information.

Don't try to apply real world logic to biting your tongue off. It's true that not everyone dies doing it. But in fiction, it has been used many times for suicide. So Kisame just died and let out his last roar.

Next chapter will likely show Naruto and gang deciding to leave the island. I guess Kirabi survives for now. And it will transition to war stuff(Madara, Sasuke, the villages) which everyone is waiting for. We could be looking at an arc that lasts one to two years.

Originally Posted by solidguy

Kisame's not dead. Gai has to go 8 gates in the next three chapters or i swear i'll gastrate you kishi . Why else did he give kisame as an opponent to gai in the first place? So he could show the power of the celestial gates, and i aint talking about the 7th. I want to see this legendary power that is on par with the awesomeness of a kage (measured by how close he is to awesome compared to Raikage ).

It's over. Gai got his spotlight and that was it. Why on earth would Gai use something that kills him when there are four other strong ninja(and Aoba) standing right there and against a Kisame with two feet in the grave. If the 8 gates are ever opened, it will be Lee who does it to pass Gai. Of course he will survive somehow.