Macross Delta - Episode 20 Discussion / Poll

[HirouKeimou]

I have very little issues with Delta in general, and this episode pushes me close to wondering if Delta is preaching anything Kawamori said it should. After all, no communication is going on from the others involved.

In example, Arad is not directly filling in Hayate on all Berger said or about music is a weapon. Meanwhile, everyone in the cast (aside from Arad) wishes for Hayate and Freyja to realign their dynamic and once more fly for each other. Unfortunately, Hayate believes this is all on him (as he says more than once in this episode; "she won't sing because of me?") and so he's less encouraged to cheer her up/comfort her like a friend should (because if it's only about him, then it's no big deal to him, he'll quit flying in Delta for her if it'll help her reach her people and end this war; he'll be disappointed because he finally discovered something he desires to do but he'll go on). And sadly, if her songs do cause him to go Var, he'll be forced by Arad no less to quit flying in Delta (I don't know if he'll quit in general or not), and even if you rationalize it, neither will win.

Of course, Freyja knows her main issue: if singing is really a weapon. Because, in her mind, if singing is a weapon, it'll mean all along she's been helping spread Var instead of containing it. The only reason she is so focused on Hayate is because he is her best friend, and a continuous reminder of her main issue in general.

Their relationship has run into so many hurdles since episode 17 rolled around that neither has had a second to absorb it all or discuss it. Neither is positive of where to go from here because one wrong move could prove fatal for either side (Hayate going Var and/or dying; Freyja giving up singing/sacrificing herself; and/or everything going to Hell because of conspiracies).

No matter how many angles I absorb of Delta in this episode, I see no positive outcome in this war; and I only hope Hayate and Freyja will survive it (because I love them so much, especially Freyja, and I'd like them to live).

[Thess]

I'm more wondering if they'll still blindly believe in Lady M, who they don't know who she is, or support the girls.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Thess

I'm more wondering if they'll still blindly believe in Lady M, who they don't know who she is, or support the girls.

I don't know about this; however, because of the last episode, I do wonder if NUNS is aware of "music is a weapon" and purposely created Walkure for this purpose under false pretenses of saying "it's for the good of everyone" or along those lines. I mean, at this point, it could be true. After all, if Lady M is in charge of them, and we neither know who she is or if she exists, it's a legitimate possibility.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

I don't know about this; however, because of the last episode, I do wonder if NUNS is aware of "music is a weapon" and purposely created Walkure for this purpose under false pretenses of saying "it's for the good of everyone" or along those lines. I mean, at this point, it could be true. After all, if Lady M is in charge of them, and we neither know who she is or if she exists, it's a legitimate possibility.

Not sure, but wasn't firebomber already such kind of a project where they wanted to try this out?

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

Not sure, but wasn't firebomber already such kind of a project where they wanted to try this out?

No? Basara would kill himself if he heard that reasoning or at least argue with them to LISTEN TO HIS SONG. It's completely against Basara's goal and motivation.

They are making a reference to the Jamming Birds. That was the failure of NUNS sound force in Macross 7.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Thess

No? Basara would kill himself if he heard that reasoning or at least argue with them to LISTEN TO HIS SONG. It's completely against Basara's goal and motivation.

They are making a reference to the Jamming Birds. That was the failure of NUNS sound force in Macross 7.

So Firebomber was a prototype to later create other units whose purpose are to be weapons to defend against the protodevlin (and maybe other sound affected alien forms like the Zentradi/Meltradi).

[ippus]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

Not sure, but wasn't firebomber already such kind of a project where they wanted to try this out?

Well it sort of was and it sort of wasn't. They were later made into a sortof a defensive unit used to aid the military as their music was the only reliable defense against the protodevlin with Basara deciding to do his own thing all the time.

Eventually it was decided Basara was right lolol

I don't think the music was ever used to inflict actual damage though as often the protodevlin just ran off in orgasmic frenzy

[Thess]

Originally Posted by ippus

Eventually it was decided Basara was right lolol

Always put your trust in Basara.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

I don't know about this; however, because of the last episode, I do wonder if NUNS is aware of "music is a weapon" and purposely created Walkure for this purpose under false pretenses of saying "it's for the good of everyone" or along those lines. I mean, at this point, it could be true. After all, if Lady M is in charge of them, and we neither know who she is or if she exists, it's a legitimate possibility.

Minmay Attack was initially treated as a fluke due to culture shock. Once guys like Quamzin got inoculated they are cultured Zentradi but still have the aggressiveness implanted in their genes. That is why a some join the Anti-UN.

Zentradi descent with that problem do different things to treat it. Guld takes medication for it but the effect seems to be memory suppression. Ouroboros Zentradi do so with implants to curbed those instincts. Macross 7 fleet in Macross 7th Chord noting a correlation between crime and Zentradi aggressiveness created a training school to train tactical sound units.

Earth UN Forces brass were skeptical the Minmay Attack would work without Minmay herself. That is until Basara came along and tamed an entire fleet of Meltrandi. Probably made notes that Zentradi need idols while Meltrans you give them Rock Stars. In 2047 the idol group Milky Dolls utilizing the technology started by Dr. Chiba helped culture shock a Lost Zentradi fleet with a repaired Mobile Fortress that was aiming to attack Earth itself.

So yeah with understanding the science behind it the Minmay Attack strategy was back on the table.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Thess

I'm more wondering if they'll still blindly believe in Lady M, who they don't know who she is, or support the girls.

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

I don't know about this; however, because of the last episode, I do wonder if NUNS is aware of "music is a weapon" and purposely created Walkure for this purpose under false pretenses of saying "it's for the good of everyone" or along those lines. I mean, at this point, it could be true. After all, if Lady M is in charge of them, and we neither know who she is or if she exists, it's a legitimate possibility.

Er...Lady M and Chaos (the main branch) are the ones who've taken Mikumo,

Spoiler for episode content:

so Makina, Reina and Kaname are basically revolting against her at this point.


I also think that a lot of people here--and elsewhere--are missing how much Mirage's character arc is linked to other characters outside that main triangle (thematically, rather than as a direct character relationship per se)...it'll be interesting to see if subs for this episode will make a difference...

[Gravitas Free Zone]

Originally Posted by FlamingMangos

It's quite strange that for a big community that Macross has, we have to rely on one anon or more to translate new episodes. I wish Crunchyroll at least picked this show up so, we don't have to play any waiting game on subs.

So... you don't know about the thing with the people and the other thing...?

[Thess]

Originally Posted by karice67

Er...Lady M and Chaos (the main branch) are the ones who've taken Mikumo,

Spoiler for episode content:

so Makina, Reina and Kaname are basically revolting against her at this point.

That's what I mean with choosing Lady M or the girls?

Spoiler for as for Mirage:

Her only non triangle connection, to me, is her family. She's really pretty isolated thematically to the rest of the cast.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Thess

That's what I mean with choosing Lady M or the girls?

Spoiler for as for Mirage:

Her only non triangle connection, to me, is her family. She's really pretty isolated thematically to the rest of the cast.

Oh, 'they' being the Xaos Ragna branch/Elysion? That probably has something to do with character arcs as well....

Spoiler for as for Mirage:

Nope, she definitely has thematic connections to other characters that are actually in the show. But you're not going to see it if you're only looking at the people she's directly interacting with in this episode.

I'm not going to say any more about it here, because this was the episode that made it obvious to me, and most people still haven't had the chance to watch it.

[lfhoule]

Originally Posted by Gravitas Free Zone

So... you don't know about the thing with the people and the other thing...?

Originally Posted by FlamingMangos

It's quite strange that for a big community that Macross has, we have to rely on one anon or more to translate new episodes. I wish Crunchyroll at least picked this show up so, we don't have to play any waiting game on subs.

Yes, it is a big mess, and compounding it is the fact that Harmony Gold, with the backing of Warner Brothers, are making their biggest push yet to get a live action Robotech film franchise a reality because Robotech has hit 30 years...

Getting more back on topic... when will we see an idol gravure style artbook for Makina? First we have episode 16 (along with the short from the vol.1 BD), and now this episode when she disguises herself as a nurse (Hello, nurse!!!!)
If no one over there is thinking about doing this, WHY NOT?!? I have money... TAKE MY MONEY!!!!!

[Thess]

Originally Posted by karice67

Oh, 'they' being the Xaos Ragna branch/Elysion? That probably has something to do with character arcs as well....

Spoiler for as for Mirage:

Nope, she definitely has thematic connections to other characters that are actually in the show. But you're not going to see it if you're only looking at the people she's directly interacting with in this episode.

I'm not going to say any more about it here, because this was the episode that made it obvious to me, and most people still haven't had the chance to watch it.

Yep. "They" as in Chuck, Ernest, Arad and the bridge bunnies.

Spoiler for as for Mirage:

She has barely had any substantial interaction with members of the cast. And no, this episode didn't make me change my mind.

[CrowKenobi]

I've moved the latest discussion to the general discussion thread since it really wasn't about episode 20 (and I would like to point out forum rule 2.3 for good measure).

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Which has been a worry some of us already talked about as soon as the preview episode came out.... too many characters to tell good stories about all of them. And, voilá, we really did get flat characters and now, on top of that, a bunch of conspiracies within conspiracies nobody asked for.

Eh, within the last couple of episodes, and in this one, I feel like this Macross is trying to play the role of a Gundam (multiple conspiracies inside one series which conclude badly).

I don't know if I'd call all its characters flat though.
Because Hayate and Freyja especially have come along leaps and bounds in character development (because neither is "happy-go-lucky" anymore ). Kaname is a slower example because she's developed a bit more within these last 2-3 episodes and is becoming self-aware of things going on within Chaos (as she is very concerned about possibilities Arad is lying about things to her). There's also Roid, who is becoming an intriguing character for "where his plans will develop to." And of course, Keith has been developing, too; for his character is becoming aware of Roid possibly becoming "evil" and/or not doing this for Windermere anymore. Chuck is a little less flat than he used to be, he's more concerned about his friends than in the beginning (this is because Messar died and Hayate promised to fly for his half, too).

It's all in the eye of the beholder, I suppose; because I see characters who have developed.

But I don't totally disagree with you.
Mirage is one of those "flat characters" for me at this point because she is not developing even a little outside of the triangle, and it's really depressing because I believed she'd eventually become even a little intriguing (even if Sheryl had a rough beginning, she developed nicely). And, of course, there is Heinz, who is literally a mind-control machine only because his "development" is forced half the time (he is completely unaware or idiotic enough to believe in Roid). Also, let's not rule out Makina and Reina, who in this episode... it's a little unbelievable that they're so into saving Mikumo because their characters up until now have placed their hopes in Chaos and never once doubted them. Another example is Mikumo, because regardless of what people on here say, she has not developed "on screen" in my eyes; she continuously goes from being mysterious to plain confusing (notable moment is when she is asking Freyja if she is seeing the "real her" in episode 7); and until the last couple of episodes, her character development has been so slow, even after the birthday episode.

So I'm not disagreeing with you vision on Delta.
But I do see a value in a group of characters. Doesn't help Delta that it has enough characters to play all the roles in Durarara!! and not enough episodes to cover every single one...

[magnuskn]

Oh, come on, Sheryl had one episode (the first) where she was somewhat unlikeable and that even only a bit, because jet lag and perfectionism.

[Mistyclear]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Oh, come on, Sheryl had one episode (the first) where she was somewhat unlikeable and that even only a bit, because jet lag and perfectionism.

It wasn't even a full episode more like just a few moments in the first episode.

[magnuskn]

That's what I meant.